CIA 'tortured and sodomised' terror suspect, human rights court rules

CIA 'tortured and sodomised' terror suspect, human rights court rules

www.guardian.co.uk

CIA agents tortured a German citizen, sodomising, shackling, and beating him, as Macedonian state police looked on, the European court of human rights said in a historic judgment released on Thursday.

In a unanimous ruling, it also found Macedonia guilty of torturing, abusing, and secretly imprisoning Khaled el-Masri, a German of Lebanese origin allegedly linked to terrorist organisations.

(visit the link for the full news article)

not quite sure what to say about this - sodomised him?? really?? Some CIA operative got paid to do that????

And

The use of CIA interrogation methods widely denounced as torture during the Bush administration's "war on terror" also came under scrutiny in Congress on Thursday. The US Senate's select committee on intelligence was expected to vote on whether to approve a mammoth review it has undertaken into the controversial practices that included waterboarding, stress positions, forced nudity, beatings and sleep and sensory deprivation.

The report, that runs to almost 6,000 pages based on a three-year review of more than 6m pieces of information, is believed to conclude that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" adopted by the CIA during the Bush years did not produce any major breakthroughs in intelligence, contrary to previous claims. The committee, which is dominated by the Democrats, is likely to vote to approve the report, though opposition from the Republican members may prevent the report ever seeing the light of day.

Nice - you're allowed to know that millions was spent for no useful purpose in a brutal and illegal campaign.........but if you don't actually read the "official" report that makes it better somehow for the GOP?????

just how stupid are they??

www.guardian.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Biggest drug runners in the world, am I surprised?

The CIA committied the acts yet Macedonia are guilty of them? What a crock.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
The CIA committied the acts yet Macedonia are guilty of them? What a crock.

both are guilty - what are you on about??

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

not quite sure what to say about this - sodomised him?? really?? Some CIA operative got paid to do that????

It didn't say what they sodomized him with.

Doesn't matter tho. This is just another example of sick and twisted individuals believing that they have the right to treat people like dogs. All for the greater good of course.

I'm truly getting sick of watching the West hang Sanctimonious, Humanitarian flags as justification for their crimes against Humanity.

Peace
Peace

Originally posted by DarknStormy
The CIA committied the acts yet Macedonia are guilty of them? What a crock.

So the nations that knowingly offered their facilities and interrogators up for the rendition and breaking of suspects this way should get a free pass?

Oh the CIA needs to answer for the abuses and how far beyond the line I know much of this went. Much is public...and much still isn't. However, the whole point of the prisoners being taken to other nations was because torture wasn't uncommon THERE...as it is HERE. FBI Agents swore out formal complaints over some of what they saw at Gitmo and that was the real tame 'Red Cross Safe' version for goodness sakes. It couldn't be done here.

Now...as for it being right or wrong? Heck.... They went too far. Of course they did. The techniques I think most sane people would see extreme situation (ticking time bomb scenario) uses for, became common place to break guys just to find ammo caches or bomb MAKERS .... not a bomb about to go off and kill hundreds.

Personally, I believe torture CAN be a tool and SHOULD be an option. However, as historical example has to look at, torture warrants ought to be required on a case by case. Those doing it are signed there...by name. Those it's done TO are there on record..by name. WHY it was done is required to have approval by the FISA or similar court. Accountability all around...so it better be worth it and then some for who asks for the authority.

I think that would allow for the ticking time bomb scenario ...or even the outside justification for the 'men under fire' scenario I understand has actually happened at least once in this war now.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Sorry, just re-read the post... Both are guilty.

Congressional investigation is where?

Originally posted by Mr. D
Congressional investigation is where?

This is a can of worms best left sealed until the shooting war is over. I'd be all for investigations starting the day AFTER the last combat soldier has cleared disputed soil.....but not while we have guys engaged in fighting. The enemy knows more than they should already of what to train for and where the limits are. It's utterly ridiculous what is in the public domain for Army Law and handling guidelines for Detainees.

However, I'll also say this and leave it vague... There is absolutely the need for full and meaningful investigations when this war IS over. If such REAL investigations ever were to happen, they might be real surprised at how many people hold pieces to the puzzle of what's happened since 9/11 and would be happy to share all that. Just not now. Times and Places.....and this isn't it. Not for that.

* I know this may sound contradictory to the above note from me, but it's not. International Investigations have their own timetables and their own right to see what's happened. INTERNAL U.S. Investigations....are anything but helpful while the same departments doing the investigating are charged with trying to have something other than a defeat to the war, too.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Agree 100% with you but the issue is that we are fighting a war on an ideology/concept/abstract theory. The War on Terror isn't going to be over for a long long time. Look at the other wars we have fought over ideologies or concepts, some of them are still being waged 40 years on and show no sign of stopping despite all evidence that they have failed miserably.

By the time it is possible to investigate things under those conditions wrabbit, all involved and most of their children will be in the grave.

There has to be a better way.

Originally posted by jude11
It didn't say what they sodomized him with.

I'm quite thankful for that actually.

reply to post by GAOTU789

Agree 100% with you but the issue is that we are fighting a war on an ideology/concept/abstract theory.

I certainly agree that it's become that and morphed into it over time. It sure didn't start that way as I recall though, for either war. The lines were defined and while the victory conditions were foggy, the boundaries of Afghanistan and Iraqi national borders with maybe some 'don't ask too much' going on in Pakistan. However, the goals were clear enough. Bin Laden and Mullah Omar had to die. Bush had a 'dirty dozen' list I recall reading news reports which he kept in his desk drawer of the top worst to check off over his two terms. I never did hear how far down the list he got or how complete it was when he left.

So, while I know it's become ideology and theology as much as anything identifiable, it sure doesn't have to STAY on this bottomless track. In fact, I'm hard pressed to see where original victory conditions haven't been met ....when one considers nation building Afghanistan was never part of the original package,. They've gotten a bonus where that's concerned and I'd be happy to call it even if we'd just leave at this point. There is nothing more to gain, is there? It only goes down from here.

By the time it is possible to investigate things under those conditions wrabbit, all involved and most of their children will be in the grave.

There has to be a better way.

If you mean stuff that people out there might have pieces to and not be inclined to share while the war is still very much ongoing....Well, I'd imagine it would be because things like ways and methods are still very important in a war we don't know the ending to yet. In any real sense? The enemy has never mounted a single effective counter-offensive. Not once. Certainly nothing the people back home would even know about, let alone done at home.

If that were to change .... and things shared in the best of intentions now made a response less effective later on .. I'd bet people who'd have been in a position to know any of that in the first place would necessarily have a hard time living with that outcome. That's why I say, when this war ends...as all wars do...There HAS to be an accounting. No question. No passes given....and no legal loopholes. Like the trials of 45/46. There sure does have to be some accounting...afterward.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by GAOTU789

 

Agree 100% with you but the issue is that we are fighting a war on an ideology/concept/abstract theory.

I certainly agree that it's become that and morphed into it over time. It sure didn't start that way as I recall though, for either war. The lines were defined and while the victory conditions were foggy, the boundaries of Afghanistan and Iraqi national borders with maybe some 'don't ask too much' going on in Pakistan. However, the goals were clear enough. Bin Laden and Mullah Omar had to die.

But those goals have become rather unclear now, at least imo. We did have defined objectives that have now become a Global War on terror. What does that entail? Spying on innocent civilian at home, the illusion of security with agencies like the TSA being created and ever expanding at this point. The Orwellian DHS. Drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen inside borders of countries we are not at war with. It's going to take a concerted effort by people with rather large cahones to turn this back from the road it's now on and I honestly don't see anyone on the horizon that is capable of that.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to see where original victory conditions haven't been met ....when one considers nation building Afghanistan was never part of the original package,. They've gotten a bonus where that's concerned and I'd be happy to call it even if we'd just leave at this point. There is nothing more to gain, is there? It only goes down from here.

Exactly, so why do they extended troop involvements? As far as I can tell, we have met what should be the goals of the invasions of Astan and Iraq, so why keep it going?

If you mean stuff that people out there might have pieces to and not be inclined to share while the war is still very much ongoing....Well, I'd imagine it would be because things like ways and methods are still very important in a war we don't know the ending to yet. In any real sense? The enemy has never mounted a single effective counter-offensive. Not once. Certainly nothing the people back home would even know about, let alone done at home.

I meant more along the lines of the people responsible being able to be held accountable.

That's why I say, when this war ends...as all wars do...There HAS to be an accounting. No question. No passes given....and no legal loopholes. Like the trials of 45/46. There sure does have to be some accounting...afterward.

I hope so but maybe I am too cynical to believe that will be the case. I would like to be proven wrong but if history is any guide, we win, no one is accountable. The winners make the rules.

But it all depends on how the war ends as to whether there will ever be any accountability. To the victor go the spoils, as they say. Or is it, history is written by the winners?

Point is, if those who maintain the status quo (the same people who approve of these tactics, mind you) win the war, they will not launch any investigations that may implicate themselves or members of their political party.

Hell, or even the other party. As much as people may not like to admit it, both parties in this country are complicit in these affairs and they are all in it together.

So, I will not hold my breath in expectation of seeing ANYONE held accountable any time soon. Certainly not via an internal US investigation and not very likely in the world courts either. The US has far too much influence at present.

reply to post by GAOTU789


I believe there will be an accounting and TPTB won't have squat to say about it. I read a very interesting and disturbing book a long time ago and talked to some folk I know who were in Vietnam and saw some weird stuff. The story of the Tiger Teams is perhaps the most disturbing I've come across with true detail available. The book I read was direct interview material from one of the guys who took part and I swear it wasn't this specific time frame. A lot happened in those 10 years, as I've learned while trying to understand my Father....but much of it? Well.. It's just as well THAT stayed quiet until fairly recently. God knows, people back then didn't need that to add to things.....

Anyway, as bad as that is? I don't know what some of these guys have seen...or done...and just flat out don't want to say, even to themselves .... but it won't keep forever. Something has to give and too many, I fear, went where no man should ever be sent in THIS war. Too many will need that accounting just to make right with what they were a part of....is my thinking. It'll come. I see it in my own family...I see it in their eyes and how they won't even touch some topics and react to others. Some bad things happened over there...and some bad things happened here too.

You'll get no argument from me about ending these wars though and I've had my share for a lifetime. Counting 1990, I've been alive to see 3 major ones and a dozen small as a concerned citizen. Enough.....time for the generations now to know an America where the Eagle looks to the Olive branch for awhile. It's just finding a way to disengage that isn't in outright weakness I suppose I'd say.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul



Further confirms what many have been saying.

This stamps proof positive that Chenny and the CIA strip and dehumanize people to the point of torture. In the Senate, it was found that they did not even gain actionable information from this..

here's a similar version from the guardian, and they name the sodomy instrument, but not a full description

TextThe CIA stripped, hooded, shackled, and sodomized el-Masri with a suppository – in CIA parlance, subjected him to "capture shock" – as Macedonian officials stood by. The CIA drugged him and flew him to Kabul to be locked up in a secret prison known as the "Salt Pit", where he was slammed into walls, kicked, beaten, and subjected to other forms of abuse. Held at the Salt Pit for four months, el-Masri was never charged, brought before a judge, or given access to his family or German government representatives. The CIA ultimately realised that it had mistaken el-Masri for an al-Qaida suspect with a similar name. But it held on to him for weeks after that. It was not until 24 May 2004, that he was flown, blindfolded, earmuffed, and chained to his seat, to Albania, where he was dumped on the side of the road without explanation.

their full version at www.informationclearinghouse.info...

Yet the United States pretty much got off for free...as usual.

Yeah, Macedonia should get nailed for their role, but what about the USA? They were the ones performing the disgusting acts. They were the ones breaking international human rights laws. All they get told is that they should apologise and pay voluntary compensation (which they won't).

Huh, figures.