China asks army to be ready for regional war

Originally posted by diqiushiwojia

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by diqiushiwojia
They belong to Japan. Japan can nationalize them all they want.

I have already explained why Japan's claim is against the Cairo Declaration.

China is being a bully, it's very clear. How can the Chinese expect anyone to take them serious after looking at a map showing what they claim as their territorial waters, and compare that to what their territorial waters are under internationally recognized standards. It's laughable.

That is a red herring. The Nan Hai and the Diaoyu Islands are two different disputes altogether.

Japan took the islands in the 1800's. It was not until AFTER resources were found that China said gimme gimme.

The PRC protested against the San Fran Treaty.

edit on 23-12-2012 by diqiushiwojia because: (no reason given)

It is not against the Cairo Declaration.

Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914.

As I showed, these islands were taken in the 1800's.

It is not a red herring. It shows China is not after what is fair and just, it is after everything it can gobble up regardless of whether it is legally theirs, or morally theirs, or it is logical.

The PRC can protest, they were not the representatives of China at the time, which is why they were not invited. The PRC acknowledges the islands should go to Taiwan anyway, the ROC would own them then not the PRC. So the PRC has ZERO claim to the islands, only the ROC does. When did the ROC make the PRC their proxy in this matter?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by diqiushiwojia

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by diqiushiwojia
They belong to Japan. Japan can nationalize them all they want.

I have already explained why Japan's claim is against the Cairo Declaration.

China is being a bully, it's very clear. How can the Chinese expect anyone to take them serious after looking at a map showing what they claim as their territorial waters, and compare that to what their territorial waters are under internationally recognized standards. It's laughable.

That is a red herring. The Nan Hai and the Diaoyu Islands are two different disputes altogether.

Japan took the islands in the 1800's. It was not until AFTER resources were found that China said gimme gimme.

The PRC protested against the San Fran Treaty.

edit on 23-12-2012 by diqiushiwojia because: (no reason given)

It is not against the Cairo Declaration.

Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914.

As I showed, these islands were taken in the 1800's.

Uh, did you even read the sentence after that?

It is not a red herring. It shows China is not after what is fair and just, it is after everything it can gobble up regardless of whether it is legally theirs, or morally theirs, or it is logical.

I haven't done much research regarding the Nan Hai so I can't say for sure, but all evidence point to Japan as the side which has erred in the Diaoyu dispute.

The PRC can protest, they were not the representatives of China at the time, which is why they were not invited. The PRC acknowledges the islands should go to Taiwan anyway, the ROC would own them then not the PRC. So the PRC has ZERO claim to the islands, only the ROC does. When did the ROC make the PRC their proxy in this matter?

The ROC claims the Chinese mainland as well as parts of surrounding countries like Mongolia. The PRC claims Taiwan and the Fujian islands administered by the ROC. Both the PRC and the ROC believe that they are the only legitimate government of China in theory (although not in practice). There's a border conflict between the PRC and India in Southern Xizang, and the ROC also claims it. Did the PRC 'make the ROC their proxy in this matter'?

Also, this is one of the rare occasions on which the PRC and the ROC agree on a border issue. Please don't spoil it.

Please also read this thread I made yesterday before replying. Thanks.

I'm tired of doing research. I have been having to do all sorts of online research and I'm afraid I'm going to get a migraine. I still want to know some more about this but I'd like someone who claims to know about the capture of these Islands by Japan in the first place.... I want you to tell me why that shenanigan went down and explain any congruency it had to the current world events of those times.

If I can get some cooperation, I bet this is going to be fun and enlightening.

reply to post by NotAnAspie


If you want to know about the capture of those islands, I've written about that in Myth #5.

reply to post by diqiushiwojia


I already proved the Senkaku islands belong to Japan, not China. China is in error, you have shown zero evidence. Cairo Declaration was about islands AFTER 1914. Senkaku islands were Japanese in the 1800's. There is no legal basis for them to have been given to China after WW2. China did not ask for them until AFTER they were found to be resource rich, nearly 40 years after the end of the war.

If they were not governed by the US in 1945 they would have gone directly back to Japan, as they were Japanese islands in the 1800's.

Yes the PRC and the ROC agree, they agree the Senkaku islands are part of the Taiwan territory. As the ROC controls Taiwan, that would make the Senkaku ROC property. Now the PRC might claim Taiwan, just as the ROC claim mainland China. As you said, their claims, and reality, are not the same.

The map of Chinese claims and what they claim as their national waters shows their bully attitude and that they care nothing for fair and legal, only what they can bully others into giving them.

Please give me a logical rational reason why the Cairo Declaration applies to the Senkaku Islands?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by diqiushiwojia

 

I already proved the Senkaku islands belong to Japan, not China. China is in error, you have shown zero evidence. Cairo Declaration was about islands AFTER 1914. Senkaku islands were Japanese in the 1800's. There is no legal basis for them to have been given to China after WW2.

If they were not governed by the US in 1945 they would have gone directly back to Japan, as they were Japanese islands in the 1800's.

I ask again that you read the sentence in the Cairo Declaration RIGHT AFTER THE ONE ABOUT 1914.

It is their [ROC, US and UK] purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China.

China did not ask for them until AFTER they were found to be resource rich, nearly 40 years after the end of the war.

Again, China did protest the San Franciso Treaty.

Yes the PRC and the ROC agree, they agree the Senkaku islands are part of the Taiwan territory. As the ROC controls Taiwan, that would make the Senkaku ROC property. Now the PRC might claim Taiwan, just as the ROC claim mainland China. As you said, their claims, and reality, are not the same.

Exactly; so there's no reason why the PRC shouldn't protest.

The map of Chinese claims and what they claim as their national waters shows their bully attitude and that they care nothing for fair and legal, only what they can bully others into giving them.

Again, just because China may have erred in the Nan Hai dispute doesn't mean that Japan isn't the one to err in this dispute.

Originally posted by NotAnAspie
I'm tired of doing research. I have been having to do all sorts of online research and I'm afraid I'm going to get a migraine. I still want to know some more about this but I'd like someone who claims to know about the capture of these Islands by Japan in the first place.... I want you to tell me why that shenanigan went down and explain any congruency it had to the current world events of those times.

If I can get some cooperation, I bet this is going to be fun and enlightening.

Japan found the islands in the 1880's, they were uninhabited. They went to war with the Chinese and won. Part of the surrender was the Treaty of Shimonoseki, in which China ceded the islands to the Japanese, in 1895. In 1945 part of the San Francisco treaty took some of these lands, specifically Formosa, which is now Taiwan, and it was given to the ROC. The Senkaku islands were specificially not given back to China. China did not petition for them to be returned until AFTER resources were found.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Japan found the islands in the 1880's, they were uninhabited. They went to war with the Chinese and won. Part of the surrender was the Treaty of Shimonoseki, in which China ceded the islands to the Japanese, in 1895

Japan investigated the islands in secret and found that they were Chinese lands. That's why they didn't formally incorporate the lands until 1895, when they acquired Taiwan.

In 1945 part of the San Francisco treaty took some of these lands, specifically Formosa, which is now Taiwan, and it was given to the ROC. The Senkaku islands were specificially not given back to China. China did not petition for them to be returned until AFTER resources were found.

For the last time, the PRC did protest after the San Fran Treaty was signed!

reply to post by diqiushiwojia


Please tell me the FIRST time China protested about these islands specifically. They protested the entirety of the San Fran treaty.

I notice that the Senkaku islands (in either their Japanese or Chinese names) are missing from the list of territories to be returned. If you can find their name I will be happy to see it. These islands were uninhabited, and as such technically were not taken by war. It was more China is giving up any rights they have to them.

Originally posted by diqiushiwojia

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Japan found the islands in the 1880's, they were uninhabited. They went to war with the Chinese and won. Part of the surrender was the Treaty of Shimonoseki, in which China ceded the islands to the Japanese, in 1895

Japan investigated the islands in secret and found that they were Chinese lands. That's why they didn't formally incorporate the lands until 1895, when they acquired Taiwan.

In 1945 part of the San Francisco treaty took some of these lands, specifically Formosa, which is now Taiwan, and it was given to the ROC. The Senkaku islands were specificially not given back to China. China did not petition for them to be returned until AFTER resources were found.

For the last time, the PRC did protest after the San Fran Treaty was signed!

No, they did not find them to be Chinese lands. What they determined is that laying claim to them may anger China, since they were close to Chinese lands. It may make them suspicious, and with a war coming up, Japan did not want China to be suspicious. After the war was over, there was no longer any reason to hide their intentions of claiming the lands.

Again, for MY last time, show me when these islands specifically were protested. It was NOT until 1971 that China brings them up. They protested the fact that they were not invited to San Fran, NEVER did they mention this island as a dispute until AFTER 1968 when resources were found.

This is going off-topic. The topic is a regional war. China will never attack Japan because the US would crush them like a bug. The US has a mandatory defense treaty, the Senkaku islands are covered in that treaty.

The Communist Leadership of China has shifted it's gaze from Taiwan to Japan as the Communist Leadership of China lost a huge amount of Prestige and wishes to SAVE FACE by once again making an attempt to garnish respect of it's own people after the humiliation that occurred when China's own High Ranking Military Leadership was STUNNED during their visit to the United States where they attended U.S. Military War Games as well as were allowed to visit several U.S. Military bases where they were allowed to witness the testing of several Ultra-High Tech. U.S. Military Weapon Systems that caused the Chinese Military Leadership to inform the Communist Leadership that any Invasion of Taiwan would be doomed to failure.

This visit also prompted the Chinese Military Leadership to embarrass the Communist Leadership by stating to the World Press that the U.S. has nothing to fear from the Chinese Military as it is Multiple Decades behind the U.S. Military in Military Weapons Tech.

This U.S. Military Plan to show the Chinese Military exactly what they would be getting into should they attempt an invasion of Taiwan most likely stopped the planned Chinese Invasion of Taiwan. The Communist Leadership is still attempting to save face and with the discovery of Energy Reserves around these Islands it offered the Communists another way to flex their muscles.

The reality is that both China and Japan know that any attack of Japanese Territory would spell the end of any attacking force that was presented by China. The U.S. defends Japan and is responsible for Japans security. China will Bitch and Moan but in the end it will do NOTHING.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The Communist Leadership of China has shifted it's gaze from Taiwan to Japan as the Communist Leadership of China lost a huge amount of Prestige and wishes to SAVE FACE by once again making an attempt to garnish respect of it's own people after the humiliation that occurred when China's own High Ranking Military Leadership was STUNNED during their visit to the United States where they attended U.S. Military War Games as well as were allowed to visit several U.S. Military bases where they were allowed to witness the testing of several Ultra-High Tech. U.S. Military Weapon Systems that caused the Chinese Military Leadership to inform the Communist Leadership that any Invasion of Taiwan would be doomed to failure.

This visit also prompted the Chinese Military Leadership to embarrass the Communist Leadership by stating to the World Press that the U.S. has nothing to fear from the Chinese Military as it is Multiple Decades behind the U.S. Military in Military Weapons Tech.

This U.S. Military Plan to show the Chinese Military exactly what they would be getting into should they attempt an invasion of Taiwan most likely stopped the planned Chinese Invasion of Taiwan. The Communist Leadership is still attempting to save face and with the discovery of Energy Reserves around these Islands it offered the Communists another way to flex their muscles.

The reality is that both China and Japan know that any attack of Japanese Territory would spell the end of any attacking force that was presented by China. The U.S. defends Japan and is responsible for Japans security. China will Bitch and Moan but in the end it will do NOTHING.

Split Infinity

The first sentence doesn't really make sense to me because I think we'd let them get away with bossing around Taiwan to the point where invasion wouldn't be necessary. I kind of think that is what has happened because the ROC and PRC aren't going at each other over it. A win of the Islands by either is both a win for China.

and why?... Because it looks kind of like Taiwan has been abandoned by the allies, so it would be more likely to concede to more influential relations with China.

Opting for an invasion of Japan rather than trying to claim Taiwan which has already essentially been handed back to them under the table.... is no indication of lightening their stance.

As for the military display, playing humble is a favorable card for China in both military and space technology.

That story screams to be reinterpreted.... You have a source for that?

reply to post by NotAnAspie


Here you go...www.theblaze.com...

Split Infinity

reply to post by NotAnAspie


China has one Carrier, which is very, very old. They have zero experience. Their military is a bug compared to the US, it's a fact. Only a truly ignorant person would not cede that point.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


You're right; this is getting off-topic. How about moving to the 'common myths' thread I started? With your permission, I'll respond to your posts above over there.

I'm not really sure why you two are trying to make what we were talking about here (the Islands) about a Chinese invasion but seeing as how there are already multiple threads about this... it really does make you sound freaking paranoid.

I have no idea why BOTH of you went from us discussing their motives with the Islands, automatically to a Chinese lead invasion.

Let me get something straight with both of you before jumping to anymore conclusions about my opinion of this. I am not one to believe that China will attack the US. I am one to think that China may be concerned about it's position in the world and be preparing for a challenge from the remains of a long lived cabal of elites that have tried to spread fear of communism and do not want to be financially weaker than China. The plans for controlling all of that is obvious.

The article provided doesn't exactly go against that. If china states this, they are presenting the idea that regardless of what happens with upcoming conflicts, China will not be starting them with the US. It does not mean they would not defend themselves NOR does it mean they would be easy to take down. Tech or no tech. That is the most important point want to take from anything I've said.

Also about the article, it doesn't surprise me because this is the same way they talk about their space programs. It doesn't make them inept. It says in the article itself that this situation is a result of collaborative efforts to assure the public that plans for an American/Chinese war are not on the table.

It still doesn't change the fact that in a few years, China will be the global financial dominance.

Watch the transition unfold with ever increasing reason to believe that America and China will not fight.

Now more than ever I think it is clear what is happening here.

HOWEVER.... The holy western world war is still what some Americans want because they've been forcefed communism fear all their lives and they think their president is a socialist and it's driving them crazy.... not to mention the elite cabal who still wants ww3 and a chance to rewrite the books again... the cabal that America is trying to/needs to separate itself from.... despite any socialist fears.

As you can see from our discussions on history.... good old democracy is not exempt from starting a bunch of crap but some will prop it up against socialism no matter how many people get killed over it.

Anything else you want to reassure me of for reasons I am uncertain of being directly related to our Island discussion.... Or shall we go back to a point that I have made at some other unspecified time that I did not think was what we were currently discussing that goes as follows?...

It doesn't matter what kind of technology China does/says it has or doesn't have or how it conducts it's political PR...
The old Capitalist system is on the way out and China will be global financiers and policy makers more so than ever and no amount of instability in the world that the elite create.... even by dismantling one of China's main oil sources.... is going to stop that.

As high tech or not, they will still fight for what they've achieved and I do believe this a demonstration of that... without getting burned by the scope that's been on China every move they make.

All this just reaffirms my opinion of all of this.

If you are unimpressed by their arsenal now, wait till they take the responsibility of being the world power in their hands... or maybe they'll just buy ours.

Originally posted by NotAnAspie
I'm not really sure why you two are trying to make what we were talking about here (the Islands) about a Chinese invasion but seeing as how there are already multiple threads about this... it really does make you sound freaking paranoid.

I have no idea why BOTH of you went from us discussing their motives with the Islands, automatically to a Chinese lead invasion.

China asks army to be ready for regional war
That is the thread title. This thread has nothing to do with Islands. I have no idea why you are clueless a Chinese invasion is being discussed in a thread titled 'China asks army to be ready for regional war'.

Then again you have been clueless about everything you have posted, so no surprise.

reply to post by NotAnAspie


A U.S./Chinese War is extremely unlikely. What is a concern is the Chinese Communist Leaderships drive to maintain control and power over an ever increasing Western Styled Economy and General Populous.

The Communist Regime drastically miscalculated when it financed the U.S. Debt as for some reason they felt this debt would allow them to influence U.S. Policy. In reality it only weakened the Chinese Strategic Position.

In the event that China would start a war or invade a U.S. Ally...the U.S. would simply stop all payments of this debt as well as use the U.S. Military to block all shipments in and out of China. Since China has no ability of Force Projection as well as being Multiple Decades behind U.S. Military Power...there is very little China could do.

The U.S. however could bring the Chinese Economy to it's Knees in a matter of a week without ever firing a shot.

Split INfinity

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by NotAnAspie
I'm not really sure why you two are trying to make what we were talking about here (the Islands) about a Chinese invasion but seeing as how there are already multiple threads about this... it really does make you sound freaking paranoid.

I have no idea why BOTH of you went from us discussing their motives with the Islands, automatically to a Chinese lead invasion.

China asks army to be ready for regional war
That is the thread title. This thread has nothing to do with Islands. I have no idea why you are clueless a Chinese invasion is being discussed in a thread titled 'China asks army to be ready for regional war'.

Then again you have been clueless about everything you have posted, so no surprise.

Not if you're quoting me. Don't you understand anything?

Why are you quoting ME when saying this? Do I have to explain everything to you?

You are clearly obsessed with a war between China and America and all I have to say about that the entire time is that it will not be an easy task. I don't give a crap what thread you are talking about it in because you seem to be taking that opportunity as much as possible... as long as you are not quoting ME to inform ME of something I wasn't talking about at the time.

Why can't you figure simple stuff like this out?