I can debunk "Infinity" in less than 8 minutes, page 15

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reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 01:41 PM by TheSubversiveOne

reply to post by JimTSpock

How can something infinite expand? If that is your argument you are contradicting yourself.

If the universe was infinite, why would it expand? How could something infinite grow? If it expands, if it grows, it is not infinite, but finite. Every example you've shown contradicts your own argument.

edit on 18-12-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 01:52 PM by spy66

reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Our universe will expand and become what it used to be. And that is infinite.

The infinite has formed everything we can observe.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:07 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:11 PM by Korg Trinity

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

That's a little short sighted a view if you ask me.

That's saying you can say for certain where something begins and ends... But according to loop quantum gravity there is no such thing as seperation from space-time.

Korg.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:11 PM by Korg Trinity

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:11 PM by Korg Trinity

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:12 PM by spy66

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

Sure it can. It can be done by expansion.

Our universe was formed by a compression. Now our universe is expanding back to what it used to be.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:18 PM by D1ss1dent

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

How could something infinite grow? If it expands, if it grows, it is not infinite, but finite...

Something that grows can grow Infinitely. It doesn't necessarily need to be "biological".

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:33 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

Sure it can. It can be done by expansion.

Our universe was formed by a compression. Now our universe is expanding back to what it used to be.

I think, like the OP, you're confused as to the definition of "infinite". It means unmeasurable, and nothing can go from measurable to immeasurable -- that's as illogical as having a "square circle".

The universe can expand indefinitely, it can even expand for an infinite amount of time, but it cannot become infinite if it is not already so. Finite and infinite are properties of something, but they are inherent, not assignable. If the universe is not infinite now, it will never be, and if it is infinite now, it always will be.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:34 PM by spy66

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

How could something infinite grow? If it expands, if it grows, it is not infinite, but finite...

Something that grows can grow Infinitely. It doesn't necessarily need to be "biological".

No it cant. It is limited in mass.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:38 PM by D1ss1dent

reply to post by spy66

A growing mass has no limit.

edit on 18-12-2012 by D1ss1dent because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:43 PM by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

How could something infinite grow? If it expands, if it grows, it is not infinite, but finite...

Something that grows can grow Infinitely. It doesn't necessarily need to be "biological".

So you are saying the universe is not infinite, but its potential growth is? This involves much speculation into the future on a universal scale, which, I hope you would agree, isn't proof of much, let alone anything.

Anything that could grow forever would never be infinite nor could it become infinite, merely because in order to grow or expand, it must already and consistently be finite.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:44 PM by spy66

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

Jesse's Christ. Yes, when our universe cant expand any-more it will stop. Because it has become infinite.

Something can't "become" infinite, for pete's sakes. It either is or it isn't. That's a pretty basic concept -- you can't convert the finite to infinite.

Sure it can. It can be done by expansion.

Our universe was formed by a compression. Now our universe is expanding back to what it used to be.

I think, like the OP, you're confused as to the definition of "infinite". It means unmeasurable, and nothing can go from measurable to immeasurable -- that's as illogical as having a "square circle".

The universe can expand indefinitely, it can even expand for an infinite amount of time, but it cannot become infinite if it is not already so. Finite and infinite are properties of something, but they are inherent, not assignable. If the universe is not infinite now, it will never be, and if it is infinite now, it always will be.

I am far from confused about this subject.

The infinite can only form something that is a finite, something that is different from it self. The infinite must have formed our finite existence, because no other source can do it.

Since the infinite can only form finite. This finite must also exist smack in he middle of the infinite dimension.
Just because our existence is a finite does not mean it can not become what it used to be.

If our finite existence was formed by a compression. A expansion would bring our finite existence right back to what it used to be.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:46 PM by D1ss1dent

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

No, that is not what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that the universe is infinite.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:47 PM by spy66

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
reply to post by spy66

A growing mass has no limit.

edit on 18-12-2012 by D1ss1dent because: (no reason given)

Sure it does. What makes it grow?

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:49 PM by spy66

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

No, that is not what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that the universe is infinite.

When you mention universe, which one are you referring to: the infinite one or our finite universe?

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 02:58 PM by adjensen

reply to post by spy66

No, I'm sorry, but your view of the properties of finite and infinite is utterly nonsensical. Nothing can "shrink" from being immeasurable into being measurable into something that is measurable, and vice versa -- you're implying that there is a boundary, and on one side things are measurable and on the other, they are not, and that's irrational. Either something is measurable, or it is not, and something which is one can never become the other.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 03:21 PM by D1ss1dent

reply to post by spy66

Listen... We could discuss infinitely. I proved to NorEaster that infinity, through logic, can be transposed to the real world (and only writing the said nonperiodic pattern on papers suffice) so i consider the case closed. Bye.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 03:26 PM by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

No, that is not what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that the universe is infinite.

In what? Size? Lifespan? Duration? Potential?

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 03:52 PM by TheSubversiveOne

infinite |ˈinfənit|
adjective
1 limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
• very great in amount or degree: he bathed the wound with infinite care.
• Mathematics greater than any assignable quantity or countable number.
• Mathematics (of a series) able to be continued indefinitely.
2 Grammar another term for nonfinite.

I think it's obvious we're not talking about the same thing. One's speaking of size, one's speaking of duration, and one's speaking about whether it's calculable. All are right. I would agree with you that from our standpoint, as of now at this time in our existence with our understanding, the universe is immeasurable. But that shouldn't mean anything fundamental to the universe itself. The fact that the universe is immeasurable only shows us the very finite amount of understanding we possess as a species in this regard, and does nothing to prove infinity.

But the same goes with duration, we can't presuppose the possibility of an infinite duration without being able to somehow foresee into the future. In the future, anything is possible, anything is only probable. We cannot predict futures so distant, so we give at an indefinite duration—because simply we cannot know. This once again shows us the limits of our understanding, and not proof of anything.

Lets look at what we do know. We've never seen, recorded, observed, or discovered anything with infinite size or infinite duration. Infinity is a mathematical concept where we fill in the holes of our understanding. How, in the context of the known universe, can infinity exist? So far it only seems to exist as a mathematical concept, and nothing more. And we're simply confusing the map with the territory.