Hillsborough - The Disaster, the Cover-up..

reply to post by lambros56


I shouldn't bother mate. Trolls die if they aren't fed.
Concentrate on those worth the time.

Originally posted by SprocketUK
reply to post by lambros56

 

I shouldn't bother mate. Trolls die if they aren't fed.
Concentrate on those worth the time.

Sprocket, I'm the OP of this thread, but even I have to admit you're being somewhat unfair towards Credenceskynyrd here.

Fact is a cover up occurred. Fact is the fans were not to blame for the actual incident taking place - and that's what I would prefer the thread to focus on. But it does have to also be said that the fact also remains that not all fans who went to that game, and every other game that goes on every weekend, are angels. Some do turn up without tickets, some are drunk and some are a bit rowdy. That's a fact of our game. He wasn't trolling at all. Certainly not in my eyes anyway.

So I ask, can we please stop the back and forth bickering? Think of the injustice that went on, think of the lives that were lost, the families that have suffered without children, wife's, husbands, cousins etc. Just imagine the hurt they would feel. This thread was made to highlight this - in my opinion that was pretty damn important and my opening post means more to me than a simple thread on an online forum. So can we please remember what's truly important here?

Thanks..

Guess you have more patience with that type than me.
I've seen the same thing on hundreds of forums, heard all the songs.
You really believe that stuff he spouts is honest? I don't, it stinks of trolling to keep banging on about drink and tickets when those were discredited years ago. Hell, if that was the cause, there would have been 20 Hillsborough's every season.
Fair play though, you're the op. I'd really like an ignore button

cheers Rising Against- you have posted a good thread, and I am being honest in my postings, despite what that hysterical fella keeps posting.

I went to matches in the 80s, I know what went on, and I'm not gonna re write history to suit someone's agenda

Originally posted by Rising Against

Originally posted by SprocketUK
reply to post by lambros56

 

I shouldn't bother mate. Trolls die if they aren't fed.
Concentrate on those worth the time.

Sprocket, I'm the OP of this thread, but even I have to admit you're being somewhat unfair towards Credenceskynyrd here.

Fact is a cover up occurred. Fact is the fans were not to blame for the actual incident taking place - and that's what I would prefer the thread to focus on. But it does have to also be said that the fact also remains that not all fans who went to that game, and every other game that goes on every weekend, are angels. Some do turn up without tickets, some are drunk and some are a bit rowdy. That's a fact of our game. He wasn't trolling at all. Certainly not in my eyes anyway.

So I ask, can we please stop the back and forth bickering? Think of the injustice that went on, think of the lives that were lost, the families that have suffered without children, wife's, husbands, cousins etc. Just imagine the hurt they would feel. This thread was made to highlight this - in my opinion that was pretty damn important and my opening post means more to me than a simple thread on an online forum. So can we please remember what's truly important here?

Thanks..

You surprise me Rising Agent.

This guy is deflecting the very point of your thread.
These drunken ticketless fans bore the brunt of the blame then the inquiry proved that wrong.

In my opinion this guy is deflecting the thread by regurgitating that drunken ticketless fans had a part to play in the deaths of those fans.
Well that hurts me as a lifelong fan and if some of my mates who were at the game saw this guys remarks.....well, I'm sure they would feel pretty miffed to say the least.

So I have to agree with Sprocket.
I too don't want this thread turning into a slanging match so I'll refrain from any more comments from this guy.

reply to post by Rising Against

truly a sad event.

I agree it is frustrating that there is still a desire to put responsibility on the fans despite the fact that an independent inquiry has completely contradicted it. Besides, the whole point of this thread is about the twenty-three year cover-up and conspiracy from the police, government and media that followed. To me the most disturbing thing about this story is the behaviour of the establishment (based on evidence - reliable), not the 'revelation' that a few people saw drunk fans on the day (based on eye-witness testimony - unreliable).

Has the country really changed since the late eighties? I guess we'll find out in another twenty-three years.

the report was politically correct and defied rational assessment- it was the report a powerful lobby wanted.

Here is my allegedly "extremist" and "Misleading" view

- the authorities were woefully inept
- the authorities attempted to cover up their ineptness
- some fans were drunk, pushing and ticketless

This is a rational and fair assessment of the situation- unfortunately this issue now has a powerful, vocal lobby who do not deal with it in a rational manner but seek to demonise others

reply to post by twfau


I don't think much has changed as far as the establishment goes.
What has changed is the ability for people to communicate, to share, via forums, twitter, blogs etc. They wouldn't get away with it to the same degree now because people would be posting pics from their phones in minutes.
Back then though, we all relied on the official view and they could write it up and present it how they liked. Remember the way that the BBC doctored the footage of Orgreave only five years before? There is another thing that needs heads to roll.

An application to quash the original Hillsborough inquest verdicts is due to be heard at the High Court today.

Attorney General Dominic Grieve, who will put forward the application, said the main basis for the move was new medical evidence, made public in the Hillsborough Independent Panel report published in September.

Ninety-six Liverpool supporters died in the crush at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium on April 15, 1989, when their team met Nottingham Forest in an FA Cup semi-final.

The report revealed a widespread cover-up by police who altered witness statements to put officers in a favourable light and deflect blame for the disaster on to Liverpool fans.

Mr Grieve is expected to rely on new medical evidence from the report that revealed 41 of the 96 fans had the "potential to survive" if the police response been more effective.

(Source)

reply to post by Rising Against


Breaking;

New police investigation into Hillsborough disaster announced by home secretary

More to come as this just hit the headlines, report not yet available. From the BBC
www.bbc.co.uk...

Why the heck the police are investigating is another thing.. should be independent in my mind..


Report now up... follow link for BBC
www.bbc.co.uk...

Hillsborough: New police probe as High Court hears inquests plea

The Home Secretary has announced a new police inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster, as the Attorney General prepares to ask the High Court to quash inquest verdicts on the 96 victims.

Theresa May said the new inquiry would re-examine what happened in April 1989.

Dominic Grieve will make his request to the High Court three months after a new report established 41 of those who died might have been saved.

New medical evidence is to be used as a basis for the new inquests application.

The Attorney General's request to Lord Judge will also include additional factors, including the alteration of evidence by police and stadium safety.

The original inquest verdicts angered many of the bereaved families who were told at the 1990 hearing that all Hillsborough's victims had been injured by 15:15 on the afternoon of the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest.

Good news in my opinion. I think a new investigation would be a great thing, and will undoubtedly raise awareness of this incident for modern day fans.

reply to post by Rising Against


Yeah, it is good news.
I still feel angry at the way the cops and others are still given the benefit of the doubt though, like they accidentally set the cutoff time to 3:15 and that it was somehow a mistake that led to things like the S*n headline...all that stuff was done on purpose, with the intention of hiding culpability...This needs a tougher stance.

A great day for truth and justice!

The High Court has quashed the original inquest verdicts returned on 96 Liverpool football fans who died in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

The Lord Chief Justice Lord Judge ordered fresh inquests following an application by the Attorney General.

Dominic Grieve made his request to the High Court three months after a new report established 41 of those who died might have been saved.

The Home Secretary has also announced a new police inquiry into the disaster.

www.bbc.co.uk...

I will not doubt get some abuse for what i am about to write & i am NOT saying it to stir things up, it is my opinion & view of the events, i have spoken to friends & other people & they seem to agree with my viewpoint, but it seems that nobody in the media will ask such questions.

It seems that the relatives are after people to blame for what happened, now of course there has been a cover up by the police & that is in the open, but now the deaths have been ruled not accidental, so where does the blame lay, surely the blame lays with the fans who were trying to get into the stadium, they were the one's who were pushing & crushing the people at the front, why did they not just wait patiently ?

The judgement was made to open the gate that caused the people to rush through it, but people were being crushed against the gate.

People had written to the FA saying the stadium was not for for a match of this size so, the FA should have not allowed the match to take place there & the stadium owners should have made sure the turnstile's etc were suitable & in full working order.

The way i see it is that, the people trying to get into the stadium were just as much at fault if not more than anyone else.

Originally posted by DanaKatherineScully
I will not doubt get some abuse for what i am about to write & i am NOT saying it to stir things up, it is my opinion & view of the events, i have spoken to friends & other people & they seem to agree with my viewpoint, but it seems that nobody in the media will ask such questions.

It seems that the relatives are after people to blame for what happened, now of course there has been a cover up by the police & that is in the open, but now the deaths have been ruled not accidental, so where does the blame lay, surely the blame lays with the fans who were trying to get into the stadium, they were the one's who were pushing & crushing the people at the front, why did they not just wait patiently ?

The judgement was made to open the gate that caused the people to rush through it, but people were being crushed against the gate.

People had written to the FA saying the stadium was not for for a match of this size so, the FA should have not allowed the match to take place there & the stadium owners should have made sure the turnstile's etc were suitable & in full working order.

The way i see it is that, the people trying to get into the stadium were just as much at fault if not more than anyone else.

This point of view is exactly what the police, and the media in 1989 managed to manipulate into the minds of people who did not go to football matches in the 1980s and certainly had no idea what went on at Hillsborough in 1989 and was close to happening years earlier. There was an incident in 1981 when Tottenham played against Wolves when people were crushed and narrowly avoided fatalities. In those days football fans were all deemed as scum and hooligans by the police. South Yorkshire police had been used as Thatcher's frontline troops to crush the miners, and the spirit of the working classes just a few years before.

Now don't for one minute think that I do not agree with some of what you say. The English FA have got off very easily in regards to this matter. The ground did not have a valid safety certificate and people would go to prison for such levels of incompetence in this day and age. Pressure was building up outside of the ground due to the archaic turnstiles in use and the fact that many feared they would miss the kick-off. No one was crushed outside the ground or in any other part than the Leppings Lane area.

The Leppings lane area of the ground had become so congested because the police had panicked and directed fans to an area of the stadium that was already well beyond it's safety capacity (even if the crash barriers had been in a fit state). Then they opened an exit gate . People were literally fighting for breath. Fighting for life. They were being directed into a tunnel,as the opening posts clearly show. and could not see up ahead of them what was going on. They could not turn back due to the police opening the gate and allowing a mass of fans into the most crowded part of the stadium. The terraces were heavily fenced in back in those days.There literally was nowhere to go.

The police could have delayed the match and probably would have done in this day and age. But in 1989 there wasn't the concern for public safety at football matches. It did actually reach a point were people outside of the stadium began to realise that something had gone badly wrong. I actually know two fans who decided NOT to enter the stadium once they realised a human disaster story was taking place. I know a few others who were in the ground and escaped with their lives but still find it difficult to talk about Hillsborough without breaking into tears. It was a scramble for life and many of the victims were youngsters who literally had their last breaths squeezed from them before they collapsed and in front of family, friends and fellow supporters.

The regular duty police constables and NCOs finally realised what was going on, the game was stopped and fans were allowed to spill out onto the pitch trying to resuscitate their fallen friends. However, to add insult to injury (and death) the ambulances and professional medical support were kept out of the ground due to more police indecision and bungling at high levels. People had literally had the life squeezed out of them and now there was no one to come to their aid.

The fact is that club owners, the police and the FA of England had gotten away with the treating football fans like scum for at least 2 decades and this disaster could have happened at any ground anywhere in the preceding years. Most football fans of the time know this. A lot of journalists and politicians nowadays were young men at the time who all understand better than you why the fans were not at fault. It was the people in authority who let them down.

Originally posted by mirageman


This point of view is exactly what the police, and the media in 1989 managed to manipulate into the minds of people who did not go to football matches in the 1980s and certainly had no idea what went on at Hillsborough in 1989 and was close to happening years earlier. There was an incident in 1981 when Tottenham played against Wolves when people were crushed and narrowly avoided fatalities. In those days football fans were all deemed as scum and hooligans by the police. South Yorkshire police had been used as Thatcher's frontline troops to crush the miners, and the spirit of the working classes just a few years before.

Now don't for one minute think that I do not agree with some of what you say. The English FA have got off very easily in regards to this matter. The ground did not have a valid safety certificate and people would go to prison for such levels of incompetence in this day and age. Pressure was building up outside of the ground due to the archaic turnstiles in use and the fact that many feared they would miss the kick-off. No one was crushed outside the ground or in any other part than the Leppings Lane area.

The Leppings lane area of the ground had become so congested because the police had panicked and directed fans to an area of the stadium that was already well beyond it's safety capacity (even if the crash barriers had been in a fit state). Then they opened an exit gate . People were literally fighting for breath. Fighting for life. They were being directed into a tunnel,as the opening posts clearly show. and could not see up ahead of them what was going on. They could not turn back due to the police opening the gate and allowing a mass of fans into the most crowded part of the stadium. The terraces were heavily fenced in back in those days.There literally was nowhere to go.

The police could have delayed the match and probably would have done in this day and age. But in 1989 there wasn't the concern for public safety at football matches. It did actually reach a point were people outside of the stadium began to realise that something had gone badly wrong. I actually know two fans who decided NOT to enter the stadium once they realised a human disaster story was taking place. I know a few others who were in the ground and escaped with their lives but still find it difficult to talk about Hillsborough without breaking into tears. It was a scramble for life and many of the victims were youngsters who literally had their last breaths squeezed from them before they collapsed and in front of family, friends and fellow supporters.

The regular duty police constables and NCOs finally realised what was going on, the game was stopped and fans were allowed to spill out onto the pitch trying to resuscitate their fallen friends. However, to add insult to injury (and death) the ambulances and professional medical support were kept out of the ground due to more police indecision and bungling at high levels. People had literally had the life squeezed out of them and now there was no one to come to their aid.

The fact is that club owners, the police and the FA of England had gotten away with the treating football fans like scum for at least 2 decades and this disaster could have happened at any ground anywhere in the preceding years. Most football fans of the time know this. A lot of journalists and politicians nowadays were young men at the time who all understand better than you why the fans were not at fault. It was the people in authority who let them down.

Quoted this part "the fact that many feared they would miss the kick-off"

These people then must surely take some sort of responsibility for their actions then ?

What if the police had not opened the gates & something would of happened then the police would have taken the blame for that as well ?

I know there are a lot of if's & but's in this, but the fans pushing must bear some of the blame, if they had not been rushing to get into the ground this would not of happened, i do not support the polices view of this & what they did was wrong, it seems that people want someone to take the blame & once they do they then have someone to sue & no doubt the tax payer will end up funding it.

At the end of the day it was a combination of things where the blame was spread, ie it was a accident.

I think you are misunderstanding how crowding works, especially overcrowding.

One of the reasons Hillsborough was an unsuitable ground was that there weren't enough turnstiles in the Leppings Lane end. Normally, this isn't a probem, but when you have the semi final of the FA cup, the number of people wanting to be there is several orders of magnitude above what one would normally expect.

In previous events at the ground, the police filtered fans through from up to a mile away, so there wouldn't be a big mass of people at the turnstiles.

in 1989 they didn't do this, they just let the crowd build and build against the outer wall.

Now, when you are in a crowd, you don't necessarily have to push hard, even if you just bump into the person in front with say...20lbs of pressure, he will transmit that to whoever is in front of him, cos there just isn't room to stop. If he hits two people and they stumble, now you have 40lbs of pressure going forward. (It's not like a newton's cradle where the force transmitted is always the same, because you have to factor in the extra mass of someone stumbling forwards from a small jolt).

Anyway, 20lbs is a very conservative number, but if you think of say 100 ranks of people all getting jostled forwards, the pressure at the front is immense, even though the "shockwave" could have been started by just one person tripping over a kerb.

Do you see? It doesn't need to be drunk, late, ticketless or thuggish people, it just needs to be a lot of people in too small an area.

I got this - It is difficult to describe the psychological and physiological pressures within crowds at
maximum density. When crowd density equals the plan area of the human body, individual
control is lost, as one becomes an involuntary part of the mass. At occupancies of about 7
persons per square meter the crowd becomes almost a fluid mass. Shock waves can be
propagated through the mass sufficient to lift people off of their feet and propel them distances
of 3 m (10 ft) or more. People may be literally lifted out of their shoes, and have clothing torn off.
Intense crowd pressures, exacerbated by anxiety, make it difficult to breathe. The heat and
thermal insulation of surrounding bodies cause some to be weakened and faint. Access to those
who fall is impossible. Removal of those in distress can only be accomplished by lifting them up
and passing them overhead to the exterior of the crowd.

From www.crowdsafe.com/FruinCauses.pdf

There are numerous other case studies around. There really is no excuse for deciding it was primarily the fans fault...Hell, if it was always up to the fans, then the 1970's and 80's would have had a Hillsborough every weekend.
No one intended it to happen, but it was a result of negligence initially and at least 41 people died because the police lied about a riot in the aftermath and wouldn't let ambulances attend. So it wasn't an "accident" any more than your local chemical plant tipping toxic waste into a river is.

reply to post by mirageman


"The Leppings lane area of the ground had become so congested because the police had panicked and directed fans to an area of the stadium that was already well beyond it's safety capacity (even if the crash barriers had been in a fit state). Then they opened an exit gate ."

..SO why was the area outside so congested?

...Should they have left the gate closed?

" They were being directed into a tunnel,as the opening posts clearly show. and could not see up ahead of them what was going on"

..So they were being directed , or were they trying to get in as quick as they could ?

"I actually know two fans who decided NOT to enter the stadium once they realised a human disaster story was taking place."

So if these to people could see what was going down , why not the other 2 or 3 thousand..Like a previous poster said most folks know that to push in a crowd is dangerous

"The fact is that club owners, the police and the FA of England had gotten away with the treating football fans like scum for at least 2 decades and this disaster could have happened at any ground anywhere in the preceding years"

For the prevoius 1 decades at least football fans WERE dodgy and violent and also rascist idiots in the main.

" but it was a result of negligence initially and at least 41 people died because the police lied about a riot in the aftermath and wouldn't let ambulances attend. So it wasn't an "accident" any more than your local chemical plant tipping toxic waste into a river is. "

SO should they have left the outer gate closed and the 2, to 3 thousand "fans" to be crushed against the outer gate?

Its seems that people just want to blame others for the event( I not talking the aftermath of deceit but the actuall event)

Seems like a case of everybody elses fault but mine mindset to me, If that "hurts" any lifelong fans....well truth (no matter how small that bit of truth may be in the grand scheme of things)does hurt sometimes.

Every single person who tried to push (first against the gate that was eventually opened) and then who pushed into the ground(look at the video of outside) and those who turned a blind eye to safety standards and the cover up ALL Have a share of the responsibility of those who died. including Liverpool FC fans.imo





hillsborough.independent.gov.uk...

You can see the crush caused in the OUTER concourse in the video ,Does that look like anybody being "directed"? SKIP to 7m40 A gate opened to eject a fan from ground and 150 made there way in.After this a stampede is seen doesnt seem to be directed to me?

reply to post by gambon


The point though, is you don't have to push like some kind of maniac, you just shuffle forward, it's an automatic thing when people bump up against your back.

Not filtering people into the area was the reason the crush built up at the turnstiles. Opening the side gates but not closing the tunnel gate is what caused the crush in the pens.

Have you ever been to a concert? You don't need to be a footy hooligan to get in a crush..I was at AC DC in Brum a few years ago and even though it was well managed, there was still that helpless feeling as you are surged forward 5 feet or so...and that was just queueing for the bogs and a beer!