Hillsborough - The Disaster, the Cover-up..

Great thread, but I'm surprised there's no mention of Orgreave to give some context to the barbarism of the souther yorkshire swine. They're different incidents, but it would be good if the Americans better knew what the SY police were like. They have a history of this stuff. Very nasty culture. Even outside of yorkshire, the south yorkshire police of that era took their brutality wherever they went, even as individuals.

Horrible lot. They're so bad that I often read police forces around the globe use the south yorkshire police of the time as an example of how not to police.

Further reading on the Ogreave connection

www.guardian.co.uk...

www.guardian.co.uk...

The media also covered up the police brutality in that case. The BBC in particular

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by Wide-Eyes

 

He wasn't using it for that reason though, it reads like he was saying that Liverpool fans were just as guilty because of previous matches.

Arguably, yes. I guess we can only speculate untill it comes from the horses mouth. In the context I interpreted it though, it did add food for thought.

Originally posted by Cynicaleye
There were a lot of factors that lead to the horrific scenes that day, including police mistakes. However, there were many Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and were very drunk, this is verified by people who actually lived around the Hillsborough area. The Liverpool fans who attempted to get in without tickets contributed to the disaster, and the drunken fans didn't help the situation either. This is being covered up now, it's just not politically correct to suggest even a few fans on that day didn't behave like saints. The "always the victim,never our fault" attitude which seems to exist amongst some Liverpool circles is very frustrating.

Like I said, the blame can't be pin-pointed, a lot of factors and mistakes from both parties. Bad management by the police, slow reactions and the pens which ultimately killed the fans were all contributing factors which the FA and police were responsible for. Drunken and ticketless Liverpool fans were also factors.

I don't think anyone doubts that football fans would enjoy an alcoholic beverage or two before a football match. I would dare say anyone who lives near to a football ground witnesses this behaviour many time over a football season. This had gone on for many years at many games prior to the last years of the 1980s. Police presence was a lot higher and a lot less fan friendly 24 years ago. So they should have known how to deal with it.

Rock concerts, festivals and nightclubs all have to deal with people who may be a rowdy and have been drinking. Why should April 15th 1989 have been so badly organised and then that incompetency buried and hidden and lies spread by the media that hid the real truth for 23 years?

The ground did not even have a valid safety certificate, yet the English Football Association still deemed Hillsborough fit to host a cup semi-final. They seem to have gotten off awfully lightly in this matter for such a glaring piece of incompetence.

As for Liverpool having an "always the victim,never our fault" attitude. Well you will find that exists in all walks of society across the world. If it had not been for the supporters of Liverpool (who come from all across the world), the football fans of many other clubs (who knew it could have been them) and their persistent attitude then this cover-up would never have been unveiled. So perhaps this persistence led to this rather unfair label?

I take your point about their being drunken fans arriving at the game. There undoubtedly were as there had been before. But this was nothing new to deal with and the South Yorks police messed up massively. Otherwise why would 116 of the 164 statements from their own force end up being tampered with?

Hillsborough was about police and press lies and successive governments (both Conservative and Labour) who chose to protect the Establishment by covering it all up whilst 96 innocent lives were lost in an incident that could have been avoided.

One good thing that did come out of it all was that football clubs and police attitude to the fans changed afterwards. Although it is a lot more expensive to attend a game it is an awful lot safer.

This pisses me off. Not because of the guy that let the people in, although that was part of it. No, what I am mad about is the fact that people are stupid. For this to have happened, it means that people were pushing up against the people in front of them. Otherwise this would not have happened. so to those people who think it is okay to start pushing the person in front of you, it is not. If people would not have started pushing, this could have been avoided.

So we can blame the person who let the people in, or blame the stupid people who are really at fault. How many people were actually responsible for this? Probably too many. I would not get into a crowd and even touch someone else, much less start pushing them. This happened to me in Times Square one New Year's night, and it can be pretty scary at times, and it really is a lot of pressure. But as I said, if people weren't so dumb, and did not push other people, this wouldn't happen.

Excellent thread and well worth putting together.

The whole incidence stank but the only glimmer of light was that the latest report did spell out that the police were at fault and seem to redress some appalling bias from previous reports.

Worth putting into context the football of the 80s at the time, as Op says it was not the beautiful game with lots of racism and football hooliganism - English were particularly good at exporting the trouble, This is partly why they got away with this injustice - that and the Tory papers at the time

reply to post by Rising Against

Thank you This is one topic I am very passionate about. This is not just about those 96 unfortunate people that didn't come home, its far reaching to every football fan and even more so the fans who came home and have for the past 23 years been tarnished that they were in some way to blame.
I hope the fight and determination shown by all football fans and the families of the Hillsborough victims, whether they came home or sadly died on that day is a warning that people power can make a difference.
Thanks again, I've been reading this site for some time now, thought it best I put my tuppence worth in!

reply to post by JiggyPotamus


I'd recommend you read inquiry as it deals with the question of why people seemed to be pushing in rather than turning back. When people were at the entrance of the tunnel they had no idea of what was going on at the other side. Plus, the tunnel was a downhill gradient into the stadium.

I'm surprised no pressure has been put on Thatcher to comment on the report, especially with the allegations that she was concerned that the original report, which didn't blame football fans, was a 'devastating criticism' of police which she implied would not be welcomed by her government.

Originally posted by Cynicaleye
There were a lot of factors that lead to the horrific scenes that day, including police mistakes. However, there were many Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and were very drunk, this is verified by people who actually lived around the Hillsborough area. The Liverpool fans who attempted to get in without tickets contributed to the disaster, and the drunken fans didn't help the situation either. This is being covered up now, it's just not politically correct to suggest even a few fans on that day didn't behave like saints. The "always the victim,never our fault" attitude which seems to exist amongst some Liverpool circles is very frustrating.

Like I said, the blame can't be pin-pointed, a lot of factors and mistakes from both parties. Bad management by the police, slow reactions and the pens which ultimately killed the fans were all contributing factors which the FA and police were responsible for. Drunken and ticketless Liverpool fans were also factors.

Ever been to a football match where there weren't a handful of drunken fans?

In the 80s every club in the country had a hooligan faction and fans turning up to games without tickets was common. Something which should've been addressed earlier. Shame it took the death of 96 for the FA to clean things up.

reply to post by twfau

I'm surprised no pressure has been put on Thatcher to comment on the report, especially with the allegations that she was concerned that the original report, which didn't blame football fans, was a 'devastating criticism' of police which she implied would not be welcomed by her government.

That's a pretty good point actually. And now you mention it, I do have to wonder why she hasn't been contacted as well.

Then gain, she may have, but just flat out refused to comment - Duckenfield and some others took that approach it seems. Hopefully when - and I do hope it is a case of hen, not if - the official verdict is overturned, they'll be a bit more pressure on those responsible and/or involved in some way.

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
This pisses me off. Not because of the guy that let the people in, although that was part of it. No, what I am mad about is the fact that people are stupid. For this to have happened, it means that people were pushing up against the people in front of them. Otherwise this would not have happened. so to those people who think it is okay to start pushing the person in front of you, it is not. If people would not have started pushing, this could have been avoided.

So we can blame the person who let the people in, or blame the stupid people who are really at fault. How many people were actually responsible for this? Probably too many. I would not get into a crowd and even touch someone else, much less start pushing them. This happened to me in Times Square one New Year's night, and it can be pretty scary at times, and it really is a lot of pressure. But as I said, if people weren't so dumb, and did not push other people, this wouldn't happen.

you are correct on that wider point- separate from the cover up issue- to absolve fans of any blame would be crazy, many were drunk, many were pushing etc

I have been at matches were it was a miracle nobody died due to behaviour of the fans

See, this is the trouble. The government and the police put up the big lie, they say the fans were drunk, had no tickets, were rioting. And even after this has been shown over and over to be incorrect, the feeble minded idiots still repeat the same old lies as though they are the truth.

I get that you support someone else, that you hate Liverpool, but can't you see that it could have been you in that end, on that day? Can't you understand that if it was, the same lies would have been told about your lot?
Maybe you can't, maybe you will never free your mind of the governments programming because its so nice to be able to needle someone.

Anyway, most of us knew the truth years ago, were glad when it was acknowledged, but hold no hope that the guilty will pay or the morons will shut up.

Originally posted by SprocketUK
See, this is the trouble. The government and the police put up the big lie, they say the fans were drunk, had no tickets, were rioting. And even after this has been shown over and over to be incorrect, the feeble minded idiots still repeat the same old lies as though they are the truth.

I get that you support someone else, that you hate Liverpool, but can't you see that it could have been you in that end, on that day? Can't you understand that if it was, the same lies would have been told about your lot?
Maybe you can't, maybe you will never free your mind of the governments programming because its so nice to be able to needle someone.

Anyway, most of us knew the truth years ago, were glad when it was acknowledged, but hold no hope that the guilty will pay or the morons will shut up.

you what, I don't hate Liverpool- I used to follow Liverpool as a kid and I go to matches in Northern Ireland now- I know what can happen with some football fans

I witnessed the antics of Liverpool fans trying to get into Wembley in 1986, lucky nobody died or was seriously injured.

So of course at Hillsborough there were some fans who were drunk, others were pushing and others had no tickets- no point in burying heads in the sand

Still doesn't excuse blame on the part of the authorities as well

A case of if the cap fits, i guess.
Let me spell it out, every single fan could have been a tee total virgin at that end of the ground and there would still have been the deaths.
Everyone could have been drunk at a safe ground and there wouldn't have been any deaths.
There was no evidence of ticketless or drunk fans causing the crush, that was one of the lies the police used and was actually exposed by Taylor.

As for pushing...hell, ive been pushed by a crowd from concerts to art galleries, its what happens when you get a crowd and why you need competent people and robust systems to keep the people safe en masse.

I guess this just illustrates my point about the big lies allowing the smaller ones to fester.

Anyway, the reasons people died were, an unsafe ground, inadequate police control, a lack of courage in the police when things started to go badly which led to ambulances being held back due to fears of riots.

That is why so many died.

reply to post by SprocketUK


yes, and people die at concerts as well- I don't think we do the memories of the dead any good by lying about things

Originally posted by liverlad
reply to post by Cynicaleye

 

This post here shows exactly how damaging the lies where, even today after the lies have been proven to be wrong, you still get people who believe in them. If you read the report, you will find that you are wrong.

Great post OP.

Doesn`t it make you sick that there are still some sick, ignorant, brainwashed idiots who still believe the rubbish that was fed to them ?
Makes you wonder if they even bothered reading the excellent work in the OP.

I`m fuming after reading a couple of posts in this thread.
The years we`ve had to put up with remarks like these and yet it continues.

Originally posted by lambros56

Originally posted by liverlad
reply to post by Cynicaleye

 

This post here shows exactly how damaging the lies where, even today after the lies have been proven to be wrong, you still get people who believe in them. If you read the report, you will find that you are wrong.

Great post OP.

Doesn`t it make you sick that there are still some sick, ignorant, brainwashed idiots who still believe the rubbish that was fed to them ?
Makes you wonder if they even bothered reading the excellent work in the OP.

I`m fuming after reading a couple of posts in this thread.
The years we`ve had to put up with remarks like these and yet it continues.

the truth makes you sick? Behave

Anyone who thinks there were no drunk fans, no fans pushing or fans without tickets is either deluded beyond belief or has an agenda- neither of which does any justice to anyone that died

ANY semi final in the 80s would have had all of the above!

What the frigs is wrong with people

I remember it well I was around 18 at the time.
It was a very tragic day.

SYP covers up details of tragic event. Its about time it all come out. The officers involved and who ever else involved should all be locked up and the key thrown away.

S+F very good thread indeed.

Pathetic, credence. Fair enough, you stay in your bubble, but stop infecting this thread with your vile form of misinformation.
The answers have been laid out in simple terms so the only reason you don't get it is cos you are trolling.
I don't care what it is in your life that makes you this way, but you should stop.
It's undignified, I ain't bothering with you any more cos I see straight through you, though I don't like the idea of your snidey little quips about drunk, late ticketless fans that have already been discounted as significant causing anyone else on here to get mad or, worse, live in ignorance like you.

This is a thread about how the authorities covered up their mistakes by blaming the victims. It isn't a thread about sledging fans of a club by perpetuating those lies.

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd

Originally posted by lambros56

Originally posted by liverlad
reply to post by Cynicaleye

 

This post here shows exactly how damaging the lies where, even today after the lies have been proven to be wrong, you still get people who believe in them. If you read the report, you will find that you are wrong.

Great post OP.

Doesn`t it make you sick that there are still some sick, ignorant, brainwashed idiots who still believe the rubbish that was fed to them ?
Makes you wonder if they even bothered reading the excellent work in the OP.

I`m fuming after reading a couple of posts in this thread.
The years we`ve had to put up with remarks like these and yet it continues.

the truth makes you sick? Behave

Anyone who thinks there were no drunk fans, no fans pushing or fans without tickets is either deluded beyond belief or has an agenda- neither of which does any justice to anyone that died

ANY semi final in the 80s would have had all of the above!

What the frigs is wrong with people

What are you on about ?
I`m talking about ignorant people still blaming drunken ticketless fans !
Some of those fans carried the blame for the death of their fellow supporters all those years because of a serious amount of lies and cover-up.
The finger was pointed at them.

No-one is denying how all fans behaved at games in the seventies and eighties.

Those fans were cleared and the truth came out of who caused the deaths.
THAT`S what the thread is about !

But it seems you and others still think those fans are guilty.
What the Frig is wrong with you ?

reply to post by SprocketUK


I actually ca nassure you I am NOT trolling, I am being sincere, so stop demonising someone who doesn't fit with your narrative

Official incompetence and cover ups SHOULD be investigated and exposed.

That does not mean we deny that some fans there would have been drunk, pushing and ticketless- don't treat people like fools