If the Moon isn't shifting...Then the Earth sure is., page 4

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reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 11:24 PM by Phage

reply to post by tinker9917

Show me where this is quoted in the paper (sorry, I don't see it)

It's the first sentence of the abstract you linked.

That is why I am asking, "How are you qualified to solve this equation", and "Why we should trust your answer"

It isn't exactly an equation. It's a rate of change and there is nothing to "solve". It's very simple math to apply the rate of change to the current eccentricity to come up with the annual percentage of change. It's called division.

Why are you referencing an article you don't understand as if it were of some significance to the idea that there is something wrong with the angle of the horns of the Moon?

edit on 12/12/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 11:26 PM by gnosticagnostic

Wow... i didn't realize so many people wanted something to be true... nice to know. However there are real theories to solve in the scientific community that warrant true debate. String theory, quantum loop gravity, M-theory and the likes of sub- atomic particles but you mention the large hadron collider around here and you apt to get responses like " there gonna blow us up with that thing" I find the lack of information in the information age to be considerable and now it's a hotly debated topic that the earth or the moon or both are not doing what they always do... If you believe in your heart that you are right.. who am I to say you are wrong.. I only know what information I read about.. I have only an associates degree, I am not highly educated but i am more educated than some.. if you have anything that remotely suggest something is off with the rotation of the earth than by all means share it but please don't use the argument well other people think so ... therefore it must be true.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 12:44 AM by ArchaicDesigns

I just want to thank everyone for the insightful comments. I still have much to read through and digest. Who needs an encyclopedia when you have ATS?

There may very well be nothing wrong with the moon, like many have said, and everything could just be the result of the moon's natural orderly cycles and people's over-active imaginations.

At the same time however, there are wayyy too many people who believe there is something off about the moon lately to dismiss it that quickly. There just needs to be some sort of system of credible evidence to use as a basis of comparison. I'm still planning on taking some photos later this week at various different times and I will also post the results.

I know I didn't mention the earth's wobble in my original post and its been awhile since I have read up on it myself but I do remeber a few things if my memory serves me correctly:

a) The wobble is the change in the rotation of the earth on its axis relative to the fixed stars. Think of the wobble you see in a toy top when it starts to slow down. Its "poles" do not spin in a perfectly straight line. This has been discovered since the late 1800s.

b) The exact cause of the wobble in Earth's polar motion has stumped the hell out of scientists through out the years with only a few agreeing on the actual cause.

c) The wobble effects both astronomers and celestial navigation. Navigators' star charts have to be updated to show the new reference point for the geographic North and South poles ever so often.

That being said, no one really knows as to what really causes the earth's wobble (some speculate as to why) and maybe we are due for a big one. It could very well be caused by an unknown cosmic force or an event like the December solstice sun aligning with the dark rift in the center of the Milky Way which the Mayan's 13-baktun cycle on their long Count calendar predicted to happen around December 21, 2012. Maybe the"top" is in the process of a very large, irregular wobble moving the poles drastically. That might explain all the apperant weird moon phenomena and people claiming that the constalations are moving like that Orion case.

I guess only time will tell...

edit on 13-12-2012 by ArchaicDesigns because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 12:56 AM by Phage

reply to post by ArchaicDesigns

This has been discovered since the late 1800s.

Precession of the equinoxes, the change in the orientation of Earth's axis was first noted by Hipparchus (190 BC – c. 120 BC). It has nothing do to with the orientation of the horns of the Moon because it does not change the actual tilt of the Earth's axis.

The exact cause of the wobble in Earth's polar motion has stumped the hell out of scientists through out the years with only a few agreeing on the actual cause.

Precession is quite well understood. It can be observed in a toy gyroscope and it affects any rotating body in a gravitational field.

The wobble effects both astronomers and celestial navigation. Navigators' star charts have to be updated to show the new reference point for the geographic North and South poles ever so often.

Yes. But not because the tilt of the Earth is changing, only it's orientation to the stars.

That might explain all the apperant weird moon phenomena and people claiming that the constalations are moving like that Orion case.

Or perhaps it can be explained by people not being as observant as they think they are.

edit on 12/13/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 01:09 AM by charlyv

That being said, no one really knows as to what causes the earth's wobble. It could very well be caused by an unknown cosmic force or an event like the December solstice sun aligning with the dark rift in the center of the Milky Way which the Mayan's 13-baktun cycle on their long Count calendar predicted to happen around December 21, 2012. Maybe the"top" is slowing down thus moving the poles drastically. That might explain all the apperant weird moon phenomena and people claiming that the constalations are moving like that Orion case. I guess only time will tell...

reply to post by ArchaicDesigns

There in lies the insolvency of the logic in this post. You cannot mix science with pseudoscience. They are mutually exclusive and their combination can never lead to a legitimate solution.. I can paint in many colors, but each one I see, is a frequency in the electromagnetic spectrum. Show me one that is not.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 01:28 AM by ArchaicDesigns

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by ArchaicDesigns

This has been discovered since the late 1800s.
Precession of the equinoxes, the change in the orientation of Earth's axis was first noted by Hipparchus (190 BC – c. 120 BC). It has nothing do to with the orientation of the horns of the Moon because it does not change the actual tilt of the Earth's axis.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I am well aware of the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes, I even stated that the Mayans knew about it.

I was referring to the Chandler wobble. It's a small deviation in the Earth's axis of rotation relative to the fixed stars not caused by extraterrestrial bodies. (The wobble is also called the variation of latitude.)

The Chandler wobble is an example of the kind of motion that can occur from a spinning object that is not a sphere similar to a toy top; this is called a free nutation. Somewhat confusingly, the direction of the earth's axial spin relative to the stars also varies with different periods, and these motions (caused by the tidal attraction of the Moon and Sun...this can be argued) are also called nutations, except for the slowest, which is the precession of the equinoxes.

The wobble in fact produces a very small ocean tide with an amplitude of c. 6 mm, the pole tide, which is the only tide not caused by extraterrestrial bodies. The wobble's amplitude has varied since its discovery, reaching its largest size in 1910 and fluctuating noticeably from one decade to another.

The International Latitude Observatories were the means to measure the wobble (established in 1899) for most part of the 20th century untill they were replaced by the International Earth Rotation Service.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 01:48 AM by ArchaicDesigns

reply to post by Trublbrwing

Thank you! That is exactly one of the points I am trying to make.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 01:57 AM by Phage

reply to post by ArchaicDesigns

The Chandler wobble moves the poles by about 20 feet in a little over a year. So the change is regular. It is also unnoticeable to the naked eye. Its cause is known, as is the cause of the change in angle of the horns of the Moon.

www.jpl.nasa.gov...

edit on 12/13/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 02:01 AM by Sagitaris

reply to post by ArchaicDesigns

i think the earth has changed its path that it normaly moves around the sun. I think it has to do with the speed the earth spins.

Japan fukishima such a large earthquake the spin alittle faster.

also

The reason for Fukushima

its just a theory

but theres been some atrological changes that arent being fully discussed by MSM and its life change information ... people say ignorance is bliss. Thats true but knowledge is so much more rewarding.

edit on 13-12-2012 by Sagitaris because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 02:11 AM by awcgs

maybe this will help?

answers.yahoo.com...

What this means is that the time variation in eccentricity (the "ovalness" of the Moon's orbit), de/dt, was measured to be 9 parts PER TRILLION (10^{-12}) per year, with a measurement error of about 30 % (ie 9 +/- 3). This is a VERY SMALL AMOUNT, 9 parts per trillion.

I'll illustrate with an example. Given that the distance between New York and Los Angeles is about 4 thousand kilometers (2500 miles), a proportion of 9 parts per trillion corresponds to a distance of 36 micrometers, or roughtly a one tenth of the width of a human hair...

For the Moon, its AVERAGE distance to Earth is 380 thousand kilometers, so we're talking about measuring variations in distance to the Earth of the order of 380E6 * 9E-12 = 3 milimeters per year. That's about 1/8 of an inch per year...

Given that the data used for the measurement was for about 38 years, this amounts to an average variation in the "ovalness" of the orbit of about 38 * 1/8 = about 5 inches over 38 years. That's 5 inches in about 220 thousand MILES, or about 14 BILLION inches, over the course of 38 years.
reply to post by tinker9917

answers.yahoo.com...

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 06:39 AM by Plotus

Originally posted by ArchaicDesigns
reply to post by stirling

I forgot to take the earth's wobble into account. I'm just trying to determine if there is a way to calculate the possibility of the earth drastically shifting (if any) using the moon but, there are so many factors that come into play.

edit on 12-12-2012 by ArchaicDesigns because: (no reason given)

You know, a good question... It would seem there are likely a lot of people with ornamental 'Gardens' with fountains, gnomes, concrete statuette's and 'Sundials'. Further it would seem that if the Earth had changed in its inclination any perceivable amount, the hobbyists would have noticed their sundials had started giving erroneous readings in relationship to prior years. Some people notice even the tiniest of changes when they are so dedicated to a hobby. And an erroneous sundial reading would be easily noticed, almost certain to be noticed. Of course other things would be noticed by astute observers, such as the shadows cast even in their homes. Or the change in the orientation in plant growth and leaf orientation. Botanists for instance with their hothouses, orchid growers, etc. Even those who grow huge lots of perennial flowers and commercial growers.

Just a thought....... but I think someone would take note of the different orientations present.

OH and for the moderators of ATS..... this new refresh is VERY very annoying.....!!!

edit on 13-12-2012 by Plotus because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 06:41 AM by resoe26

Originally posted by litterbaux
The shadow the earth places on the moon has nothing to do with the earth's tilt.

Completely normal. Found some pics.

farm4.static.flickr.com...

farm4.static.flickr.com...
edit on 12-12-2012 by litterbaux because: (no reason given)

first photo is exactly how the moon looked monday morning where I'm at.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 07:05 AM by TauCetixeta

reply to post by ArchaicDesigns

I use ATS + Wikipedia.
NASA websites also get it right most of the time.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 07:07 AM by occy30

Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by occy30

Clearly you were so moved by that image you stopped your vehicle (judging by reflection on window) and took the photo. Unless you do this often I would say your brain indicated this was unusual and merited a photo.

That was just it. Like stated earlier in this thread, I could of easily of wrecked on my drive as I kept looking at it. I even thought about pulling over and just taking a few minutes to really get a good look (but there was no time if I wanted to be at work on time). I like to take a quick look up in the mornings as I can usually find Orion's belt and a few other constellations but the moon was really neat to look at. Like Phage has stated, nothing out of the ordinary with the science of where it is or how the earth is tilting but man, this really stood out. Not sure why it really caught my attention but it grabbed it and wouldn't let it go. Might have to invest in a good night camera to carry around in my back pack (with a good optical zoom).

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 07:44 AM by milominderbinder

Originally posted by mr10k

Originally posted by ArchaicDesigns
With all the weird environmental happenings and theories of late, I have been trying to find some plausible evidence to support that the earth might be tilting.

....wh...wh....what....

It's because Earth is tilted... Why would you have trouble finding evidence that the Earth is tilted..

planetariumweb.madison.k12.wi.us...
edit on 12-12-2012 by mr10k because: (no reason given)

reply to post by litterbaux

The shadow doesn't, but the way the Earth is tilted is the reason why the crescent moon appears different to observers throughout the year.
edit on 12-12-2012 by mr10k because: (no reason given)

Forget the tilting...we don't even know how the moon came into existence in the first place.

YouTube Link

The scariest part....Bill O'Reilly somehow managed to get a graduate degree from Harvard without really being able to understand the world around him any better than an illiterate medieval peasant.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 08:26 AM by Siberbat

Here a bit of information as to why the moon phases appear off kilter over a period of time. Keep in mind, the moon does have a variance to our equatorial plane, it is a matter of perspective. It may seem strange, but according to this, occurs over a period of approximately 9 years. Could explain the change of perspective in the moon phases (angular perspective).

Lunar standstill
During the June Solstice the Ecliptic reaches the highest declination in the southern hemisphere, −23°29′. When at the same time the ascending node has a 90° angle with the Sun in the southern hemisphere, the declination of the Full Moon in the sky reaches a maximum at −23°29′ – 5°9′ or −28°36′. This is called the major standstill or Lunistice in the southern hemisphere. Nine and a half years later, when the descending node has a 90° angle with the December Solstice the declination of the Full Moon in the sky reaches a maximum at 23°29′ + 5°9′ or 28°36′. The other major standstill or Lunistice, this time in the northern hemisphere.

Wiki

Now I'm am not as knowledgeable as many here, but thought it was interesting information and possible explanation.

Or, I have no idea what I'm talking about lol. I'll be the first to admit that!

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 09:02 AM by ziplock9000

Originally posted by ArchaicDesigns
reply to post by gnosticagnostic

I hear where you are coming from. Yeah I do, but for some reason I just thought something to be off about it as of late, the angles are very erratic. Could just be me.

The other night for example, when the moon was rising, the crescent appeared to be 'laying down' And then the following morning it appeared to 'right-side-up'. Is that normal? Maybe I look at it too much. Lol

edit on 12-12-2012 by ArchaicDesigns because: (no reason given)

No 'could' about it. Everything is normal ffs.

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 09:55 AM by TritonTaranis

Something happened about 2yrs ago,

The sun used to rise outside my bedroom window facing south, and set out side the front window facing north, in the summer it would rise to the far left of the back window and i always noted this with distant land marks, i still remember it clear as day as i was quite the star gazer, but now in the summer its rising just further right on the horizon in the summer, sorry i can't be more technical,

The same with the front of the houses window its setting in a different location, and yes i do know it does this seasonal but ive seen many summers and winters here and have taken many pics of the sun setting at both times of the year, ive life here for 30yrs and its deffo moved,

Ive had plants the was specifically placed to get the best/most sunlight before it dipped over the fence/house to set for years, so ive had to reposition a few to adjust

reply posted on 13-12-2012 @ 10:03 AM by rugger