It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
I disagree. If the readiness potential was present regardless of the decision, like stated in the article, the interpretation that the brain was making a decision simply does not have ground to stand on anymore..
Originally posted by NiNjABackflip
Thanks for bringing up the other point of view. While I agree that this leaves the experiment to interpretation, it by no way means either interpretation is right or wrong.
Long sceptical of Libet's interpretation, Jeff Miller and Judy Trevena of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand, attempted to tease apart what prompts the RP using a similar experiment, with a key twist.
They also used scalp electrodes, but instead of letting their volunteers decide when to move, Miller and Trevena asked them to wait for an audio tone before deciding whether to tap a key. If Libet's interpretation were correct, Miller reasoned, the RP should be greater after the tone when a person chose to tap the key.
While there was an RP before volunteers made their decision to move, the signal was the same whether or not they elected to tap. Miller concludes that the RP may merely be a sign that the brain is paying attention and does not indicate that a decision has been made.
Miller and Trevena also failed to find evidence of subconscious decision-making in a second experiment. This time they asked volunteers to press a key after the tone, but to decide on the spot whether to use their left or right hand. As movement in the right limbs is related to the brain signals in the left hemisphere and vice versa, they reasoned that if an unconscious process is driving this decision, where it occurs in the brain should depend on which hand is chosen. But they found no such correlation.
Marcel Brass of Ghent University in Belgium says it is wrong to use Miller and Trevena's results to reinterpret Libet's experiment, in which volunteers were not prompted to make a decision. The audio tone "changes the paradigm", so the two can't be compared, he says. What's more, in 2008, he and his colleagues detected patterns in brain activity that predicted better than chance whether or not a subject would press a key, before they were aware of making a decision.
But Frank Durgin, a psychologist at Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania, says that Brass's results do "seem to undermine Libet's preferred interpretation", though they don't contradict it outright.
I don't see how free will is a false promise. Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions, any more than you can hold a space rock responsible for falling on your head. That alone should be a reason to uphold free will. Although that's a moral argument rather than a 'scientific' one, even if we conclude we have no free will, nothing would change and we would be living our lives as if we had it, thus in contradictions. It's like a fish saying there is no water while experiencing it every day.
Originally posted by NiNjABackflip
I too hold such disdain for science. But I also hold disdain for the false promises of free-will, immortality, etc. I am, by nature, inclined to question them.
That the will is bound by things does not mean it does not exist. For example, you can have a math problem, and the result of X can be two different things. It does not mean you can choose any X you want. Maybe our free will lies in choosing one of those and going on with it, seeing where it leads. Free will does not necessarily mean an infinite ability to choose.
Originally posted by NiNjABackflip
The opportunity to utilize free-will is astounding: we can go do jumping jacks, we can run up and down the street and we can also leave to never return. We can even kill people. Now why wouldn't one do those things? Desire, laziness, passion, skepticism, law, physics, conscience, societal pressures etc. The will, being bound by these and existence itself, is not free.
Originally posted by vasaga
I don't see how free will is a false promise. Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions, any more than you can hold a space rock responsible for falling on your head. That alone should be a reason to uphold free will. Although that's a moral argument rather than a 'scientific' one, even if we conclude we have no free will, nothing would change and we would be living our lives as if we had it, thus in contradictions. It's like a fish saying there is no water while experiencing it every day.
Originally posted by BcnDiamond
reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33
I actually read that thread and I'm glad the OP made another thread.
I feel as if you think you are being attack personally when someone says there might not be such a thing as free will
I could quote a bunch of your posts from the previous thread and explain why your arguments fail every time, but I would advise you to read more on this subject elsewhere, because I don't think you understand the concept well enough.
A word of advise, the next time you post and say ''look you typed that because of free will'', try to argue why you think free will is involved.
Originally posted by vasaga
Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions, any more than you can hold a space rock responsible for falling on your head. That alone should be a reason to uphold free will.
Originally posted by vasaga
even if we conclude we have no free will, nothing would change and we would be living our lives as if we had it, thus in contradictions. It's like a fish saying there is no water while experiencing it every day.
Originally posted by arpgme
Yup. You are absolutely right. If free-will was proven 100% to be false without any doubt, that would mean that all of the destructive behavior that people were not responsible for were meant to go to prison.
No. That's what you said. All I said is that if there's no free will there's no responsibility. Not to mention your position complete bs. Why? I will use my hand to not throw a ball. I will use my keyboard to not type anything. I will use my phone to not call someone. I will use my bed to not sleep in it. Starting to see the absurdity of your argument? There's no circular reasoning. You simply used a basic logical fallacy. You could put anything to 'use', while not actually using it. Using something requires action. There is no action in not punishing. Get your fallacies straight before you start throwing them around.
Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by vasaga
Originally posted by vasaga
Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions, any more than you can hold a space rock responsible for falling on your head. That alone should be a reason to uphold free will.
That is circular reasoning. You are saying that if free-will doesn't exist then we would use our free-will to not punish those who have been going to jail for their negative actions...
Yup. It would be an illusion of punishment.
Originally posted by arpgme
Originally posted by vasaga
even if we conclude we have no free will, nothing would change and we would be living our lives as if we had it, thus in contradictions. It's like a fish saying there is no water while experiencing it every day.
Yup. You are absolutely right. If free-will was proven 100% to be false without any doubt, that would mean that all of the destructive behavior that people were not responsible for were meant to go to prison.
The limit here is not really their 'nature', but understanding. If we could communicate with them and make them understand, we'd definitely hold them responsible, wouldn't we? And maybe they'd even let us understand why they attacked...
Originally posted by BcnDiamond
Originally posted by vasaga
I don't see how free will is a false promise. Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions, any more than you can hold a space rock responsible for falling on your head. That alone should be a reason to uphold free will. Although that's a moral argument rather than a 'scientific' one, even if we conclude we have no free will, nothing would change and we would be living our lives as if we had it, thus in contradictions. It's like a fish saying there is no water while experiencing it every day.
Is that such a weird thought though? That people can not be held responsible for their actions, how bad they may be. You don't hold a grudge against an animal that hurt someone, it's in their nature, they can't be held responsible.
I would say something would change, for example, different ideas about the justice system.
Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions
You did not understand what I said. You probably think I didn't understand you, but I did. My argument is, that until it is absolutely proven that there is no free will (that is certainly not the case now, and I would bet that it will never happen either), free will should be the default stance. Why? Take these scenarios.
Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by vasaga
Here is what you said:
Abolish free will, and people can not be held responsible for their actions
I said, that is not true because it is like saying if there is no free-will people will use their free-will to decide not to punish. If free-will does not exist and people are still punished for their actions - then that is what was meant to be.
Assume for a minute that we don't have free will, what differences would we see if we did have the free will in the above definition?
(independent to the causes and effects of your life experiences and learned perspectives and beliefs).
Originally posted by charles1952
1.) It appears that the general definition of "free will" adopted in this thread, by those who don't believe we have one is one that isAssume for a minute that we don't have free will, what differences would we see if we did have the free will in the above definition?
(independent to the causes and effects of your life experiences and learned perspectives and beliefs).
2.) If a free will is one independent of everything we have ever experienced, thought, or believed, what factors would some one with free will use to make a decision? Remember you can't use anything you've ever experienced or thought. The only thing left seems to be a random, mental "coin flip." If that is free will, I must say that I am glad not to have it.
Why?
Regardless of freewill you still lock people up if their dangerous.