How can there be free-will when our Will is just a response to circumstances?

reply to post by BcnDiamond


So wait, what?

You're saying that my subconscious is determined because its determined.

I know that's not what you are saying, so clear up the mud and explain.

reply to post by ArchaicDesigns


Ok, that was a poor example.
A more appropriate example would be a volcanic explosion.
Overtime, the magma and dissolved gases build up in the chamber where it eventually the pressure becomes to great for it to be contained.

Was the explosion an act of free will or determinism?

Silly question right?
It is silly because we understand the universal laws responsible for the build up and resulting explosion that follows.

The Human Being is not outside those universal laws either, but is also subject to them where cause and effect take place. We understand the laws taking place with the volcano.

We do not understand the universal laws entirely that govern the human thought process, but that does not mean we are acting outside the universal laws of cause and effect either.

reply to post by charles1952


We are physical objects of the universe that are subject to the same laws of cause and effect as any object.
Is our thoughts, neuron mapped impulses, whatever you wish to call it that are objects, following a pattern of cause and effect or, are they being driven by some force of free will located outside the physical universe?

I think at least 99% is due to cause and effect rather than free will.
I remember reading a case history of a murderer, that lived a violent upbringing and this upbringing, along with many other unknowns that continued to change this person.
The mapping of the neural pathways of this person was changing as he continued to live this violent life.

The decisions of the person and the way they thought were strengthened by past actions and social conditioning.
There were actual physical changes to the person that determined how they thought.

Like the example with a volcano exploding, it is following cause and effect. A physical alteration of the neural pathways in the brain is also following cause and effect.

As I think of free will: It implies we all have a one size fits all exact copy of the human body where we all have at our disposal, the capability to make the same decisions out of millions.




For some people, it is easier to look at everyone as having the same manual to work with, but that is not the case from looking around us. Which is one of the reasons I give credence to the "belief" in reincarnation, because each vehicle for the soul is different, and it is not possible to learn of all the possible twists and turns life can hand you from only this one perspective.

If we were truly, "free" we wouldn't have circumstances that would cause one person to want to punch another.

We would be born, raised by our families with abundance, the go off when we were old enough and find a mate and enjoy our own abundance as well, and create a new family if we liked....

Instead we are born onto a sick greedy backwards society that revolves around greed, money, and lack.

This world is unnatural and wrong on every level...

reply to post by arpgme


Free will is the ability to not be influenced by outside circumstances in your mind. Just like Jesus was led up a path and placed on a cross, do we think every action another took against him he had any free will in it? Free will is the ability to keep your mind free. Its not a choice in action but a choice in thought. The circumstances cannot affect you if they don't bother you to begin with.

reply to post by mellisamouse

Thank you very much for providing such stunning evidence of free will. I can't see a way around it.

Instead we are born onto a sick greedy backwards society that revolves around greed, money, and lack.

This world is unnatural and wrong on every level...

Alright, you know that the world is unnatural and wrong, and filled with "wrong" people. Very few, if any, would disagree. Where does this idea come from? I don't mean the idea that there is a right and wrong, that's a slightly different subject. But how, in a world where people's actions are controlled by neurons and whatever else, can the idea of a "wrong" action come about.

If you drop a stone on my foot, I might say you were wrong for dropping it, but only the strangest of minds could say the stone was wrong for raising a bruise. The stone was just following the laws of physics, no one can blame the stone.

If we are nothing more than "stones" just following the laws of electro-biology, or whatever, surely you can't blame people any more than you can blame the rock that injured you. You would never say the stone was wrong, but you say, and the whole world agrees with you, that people can be wrong.

If any of our posters care to adopt a philosophy that doesn't meet the test of normal human experience, they are free to, but that certainly leaves either their logic or motives suspect.

The creator has all the freedom. If you are looking for freedom, you only have to stop looking.

All of this is your choice. Everything I do is your choice. Everything you do is mine. You are the creator. We are one creator. That is the self. The one with the desire and will. You are the interpreter who shapes the world into your own version. You are not the creation. You are only watching it. You are the watcher. We are all one. The creation is not what we are. It is a result of our being. It comes from us. The creation is not free. Don't think you are the creation. Realize the self. There is freedom in the self.

reply to post by charles1952


Wrong and right are subjective. They are creations. You are not what can be right or wrong. You are not the creation. You are the un interpreted being. You are the one behind the intepretations–the interpreter. You are free to interpret the world however you want. And through interpretation, the undefined and meaningless becomes defined and meaningful.

The lesson here is to just be aware. Creation happens effortlessly.

Your conditioning is the only thing stopping you from becoming free. Your beliefs are you limitations. Do not get stuck in one belief without being open to change because your beliefs are the filter for how you perceive the world. Believe you are free. That is your creative power. Believe you are not the creation. Don't attach yourself to what is impermanent. You will only be disappointed. The creator is free. The creation is as only as free as it knows itself as the creator. Then the creation will be seen as the outcome of your existence.

The creation is not you. We are one creator, but none of us are what we see.

Originally posted by arpgme
For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?

Free will my dear friend! I love it. The more I learn about it through my life the more I cherish freedom.

I think that The Creator was wise and very generous to give humans that. What a gift!!!

Even though the earth and Creation must suffer the negative consequences of our free will when we do evil things and destroy, The Creator tolerates our learning curve.

I told you before how much I like the way you think. You write thought provoking threads full of gentility and sensitive thought!

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by arpgme

 

Free will is the ability to not be influenced by outside circumstances in your mind. Just like Jesus was led up a path and placed on a cross, do we think every action another took against him he had any free will in it? Free will is the ability to keep your mind free. Its not a choice in action but a choice in thought. The circumstances cannot affect you if they don't bother you to begin with.

Christ had free will. The Devil knew that and that is why he tried to tempt Christ away.

Christ CHOSE His destiny. By doing so He FREED us all from sin if we want it; "War is over if you want it" (Lennon).

If Christ had decided not to fulfill the prophesy we would still be in the prison of our sin with no escape!

"The Light shone in the darkness"! Amen!

Originally posted by mellisamouse
If we were truly, "free" we wouldn't have circumstances that would cause one person to want to punch another.

We would be born, raised by our families with abundance, the go off when we were old enough and find a mate and enjoy our own abundance as well, and create a new family if we liked....

Instead we are born onto a sick greedy backwards society that revolves around greed, money, and lack.

This world is unnatural and wrong on every level...

Exactly! This is the consequence of our original inherited sin against the universe.

We CHOSE out of free will to believe a tempting snake above The Very Creator's ONLY ONE SINGLE LAW! HE told us we could do anything we liked except eat from that tree. What did we do?; we ate from that tree.

We are meant to have all that abundance. We would have had it if we have not broken that 1 request!

Now we have to try and follow 10 without any hope of living up to them because we are sick in our very souls.

There is a medicine we can take. We can only take it if we know humility.

The All Seeing, All Knowing One knew we would do this. It was all part of HIS plan to establish creatures in Creation who don't have to be programmed robots. The Elohim don't want a universe full of that. Free will is the only way to God. If we bend to His Grace the rewards will eventually be an eternity of abundance.

The Christian in me tells me this. My intuition tells me this. Why even the quantum theories make room for this.

Great! That makes me feel pretty good knowing that The Creator wants me to live in an eternal Kingdom, of beauty, kindness, compassion, abundance with no illness, tears and death.

This physical world of tears, pain and shadows pales in significance for the rust and dust it is when I behold the glory of Eternal Salvation.

The atheists and materialists can try and find their temporal answers in temporal, transient "isms" in politics, the state, institutions,religion, philosophy, church buildings made of eroding stones, whatever.

I found my answers in The Lamb of God. My soul is comforted even unto physical death because I know I shall rise again as Christ did when He brings me back to face judgement. I'll be my own judge on that day I know it! I wouldn't want to set foot in His Kingdom unless I can guarantee I will not pollute it like we do this current earth!

Peace!

Originally posted by BendedBones
reply to post by BcnDiamond

 

So wait, what?

You're saying that my subconscious is determined because its determined.

I know that's not what you are saying, so clear up the mud and explain.

Original thought or program??? Think along those lines!

Originally posted by arpgme
For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?

Not a Response .. it is a choice.

For the life of me I do not understand this nanny state thinking that we are constant victims of circumstances. We always choose our words and our actions, even if we do so when in an agitated state of anger. Nothing is forcing you to act in anger, you simply choose it because you have not learned mastery of the self.

For sure there are circumstances in our lives beyond our control.. who we are born to, what opportunities come our way due to our socio-economic class, etc.

Kids with ADHD are choosing their behaviours .. I expect a lot of flack for that statement. It is no different to drunks behaving in a horrific manner and then blaming it on the alcohol. Sure the alcohol might make it easier to make those choices, but it is not the Cause.. the person's lack of self-respect and thus respect for others is the cause of the choices made in such instances.

I watched a Louis Theroux documentary two nights ago about Americas Medicated Kids,and what I saw when Louis and cameraman were in the same room as these kids, the kids changed their behaviours through choice. Young kids and teens did that quite openly and it was easy to see... and when the limelight was taken away from them, they chose to act out again.

Free Will is a reality, but it has limitations also. You cannot choose to fly to France for lunch if you are "being" poor. But you do have a choice in how you behave, what you say and when you say it.

In fact, the ONLY thing anyone can CONTROL is what they DO. I just wish more people understood this important little fact of life.

Originally posted by Tayesin

Originally posted by arpgme
For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?

Not a Response .. it is a choice.

For the life of me I do not understand this nanny state thinking that we are constant victims of circumstances. We always choose our words and our actions, even if we do so when in an agitated state of anger. Nothing is forcing you to act in anger, you simply choose it because you have not learned mastery of the self.

For sure there are circumstances in our lives beyond our control.. who we are born to, what opportunities come our way due to our socio-economic class, etc.

Kids with ADHD are choosing their behaviours .. I expect a lot of flack for that statement. It is no different to drunks behaving in a horrific manner and then blaming it on the alcohol. Sure the alcohol might make it easier to make those choices, but it is not the Cause.. the person's lack of self-respect and thus respect for others is the cause of the choices made in such instances.

I watched a Louis Theroux documentary two nights ago about Americas Medicated Kids,and what I saw when Louis and cameraman were in the same room as these kids, the kids changed their behaviours through choice. Young kids and teens did that quite openly and it was easy to see... and when the limelight was taken away from them, they chose to act out again.

Free Will is a reality, but it has limitations also. You cannot choose to fly to France for lunch if you are "being" poor. But you do have a choice in how you behave, what you say and when you say it.

In fact, the ONLY thing anyone can CONTROL is what they DO. I just wish more people understood this important little fact of life.

I liked reading that. You are so right. It is in the end the individual's choice every time. My Boss at The Homeless Hostel where I was an Officer used to tell me that. I agree.

The only situation I think where we lose free will is in cases of blackmail and torture. Yet even under these extreme circumstances the choice is there.

Like if I was tortured into denying Christ (like the Martyrs and Saints) I still have a choice in my will whether to renounce or not. Oh MG what a test that is!!! Hope I never have to go there. Who knows how strong their will is until they face something like that?

That is why I respect all those Martyrs, Prophets and Saints so much!!! Even under horror and brutality these nuts could not be cracked! Respect!

We all have free will, I've used it before. The problem is that most of us are unknowingly constrained by the society around us and are afraid to use it. There is not as much free will in a society that has strict rules of operation, but there can be in a more open society.

There is a difference between reacting to circumstances and acting on your own initiative.

Originally posted by arpgme
For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?

physics ...energy transference... they just punched you WITH something

Originally posted by ArchaicDesigns
reply to post by arpgme

 

Your "free-will" is you ability to choose. You can either choose to punch back or not to punch back... Or to even run away. You are free to choose whatever you like.

The only constant is changing circumstances, this is life.

edit on 11-12-2012 by ArchaicDesigns because: Spelinn

We can't choose our sexual orientation.

If all our our future actions are determined purely by past influences, forces, programming ( call it what you will ) then everything that's ever happened and going to happen has/had already been decided and has been since the big bang ( or whatever got the whole game going in the first place). Seem's to me it's a rather pointless universe if things are really like that.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


ok so what do YOU do because all I feel like doing is "cleaning"