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How can there be free-will when our Will is just a response to circumstances?

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posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Are we outside the laws of physics, science, causation?




posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:25 PM
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Free will allows us to choose that which is displeasant such as hard work, to create a long term beneficial outcome. This goes against our reaction which is to revulse from unpleasant things.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by nyancat
 


I understand what you're saying, but it's an entirely different debate, in fact most of the things you mention contribute to even more factors influencing your decisions in the future, whether they are ''good'' or ''bad''.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by iamdavid
 



Originally posted by iamdavid
reply to post by arpgme
 


Well, here's the best example I can come up with for now.... I love watching movies about aliens... But afterwards I have trouble sleeping. The thought of them, coming to get ME for experiments freaks me the # out


So why do I watch then, when I know for sure from experience, that afterwards I will regret it? Because I choose to, with my own stupid free will
edit on 11-12-2012 by iamdavid because: (no reason given)


This doesn't show that it is "Free" will. It is just two wills that arises and one happen to be stronger than the other. The will to watch it with the result of fears, or the will to not with the result of missing out on the entertainment but without fears.

It would be more convincing for free-will to exist if we can choose the things we want in life, rather than it just arising within us. Can we choose to want the things we want? No. We either want it or don't . The desire either arises or not. You can't say "ok, I will start to WANT pizza now and like the flavor". Either you want the pizza or not. Even if you could choose your own will/desire and say "I will WANT this in five minutes" and cause yourself to have a desire/will, then what caused you to WANT to create that WANT? At some point we will have to face the truth that Will is not so free...



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Hey! Long time lurker (6 years now? Who knows anymore) but I am granting you! Yes you, the honor of my first post on the board! WOO!


I can see where you are getting bogged down in regards to the differences between determinism and free will, hopefully I can do some justice and explain where you are making the mistake.

From what I gather, you are trying to turn the idea of free will into determinism. Now, if these two schools of thought were the same, well there wouldn't be two different schools of thought.

You have conceded in your argumentation the evidence of both cause and effect. By doing this, you have recognized the difference between determinism and free will, even if doesn't appear obviously at first I assure you there is a huge difference.

The absence of free will means that all things are determined, or that any action is a consequence of divinity. Being a consequence of divinity there can be absolutely no cause, only effects.

If you look at the major arguments against the ethical view of Divine Command Theory you can see this circular logic at play clearly. But effects, in our reality, don't just happen (because they happen, because they happen, because they happen.) There are distinct causes. For instance, if you take a bucket of water and hold it upside down the water will pour out. This type of thing doesn't just happen, it happens because gravity pulled the water out of the bucket, so to speak.

This might seem determined, but it is not. Its a reaction to an action. If we were determined there would be absolutely no rhyme or reason to universe and things would just happen, because they happen, because they happen, because they happen, because they happen.

There are people out there today who hold the belief that we are determined because of the argument you just put forth. Science is measurable, and its predictable if you have the right tools and methods. You can predict down to the most minute measurement the half life of an atom, thus it goes that everything in our reality is predictable through science and therefore determined.

I choose to believe I have free will. If a scientist can hook me up to a machine and tell me what I am going to think before I think it, then I will have the proof that I require to accept that belief.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by ldyserenity
they say Angels have no free will then in the same breath explain Satan's fall? Obviously he had the freewill to fall

In Islamic terminology, satan/ jinns, like humans, have the capacity to choose whether to obey or disobey , which means they have free will. Angels on the contrary cannot disobey.
en.wikipedia.org...
jihad is the definition of the struggle within free-will.

________________________


edit on 11/12/12 by ToneDeaf because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by winterkill
Free will allows us to choose that which is displeasant such as hard work, to create a long term beneficial outcome. This goes against our reaction which is to revulse from unpleasant things.

The fact that you seek for a long term benifical outcome is crucial for the decision you make.

reply to post by iamdavid
 

You just answered your own question, because you love watching movies about aliens. (continue.. to factors contributing to this, perhaps the introduction to ATS?)
reply to post by jacobe001
 

Where does the ''of course'' come from? In any case you still live in this universe and are subject to the same laws of physics, even believing in a metaphysical universe. Unless of course you believe the soul operates entirely free from the rest of you (unpleasant idea I must say) and makes decisions for you. Even then, without knowing anything about how the soul operates, it makes no point for the existence of free will.

I would love to see someone pose a good example, which isn't as readily explainable by cause and causality.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by BendedBones
 


Actually, about your last sentence, they can actually prove that and did so.
And btw, how do you make the leap from lack of free will to a divine cause?



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by BendedBones
 



Originally posted by BendedBones
Hey! Long time lurker (6 years now? Who knows anymore) but I am granting you! Yes you, the honor of my first post on the board! WOO!


Welcome to the board.



Originally posted by BendedBones
The absence of free will means that all things are determined, or that any action is a consequence of divinity. Being a consequence of divinity there can be absolutely no cause, only effects.


What would cause the divine to create the universe? That would be another interesting question.



Originally posted by BendedBones
If you look at the major arguments against the ethical view of Divine Command Theory you can see this circular logic at play clearly. But effects, in our reality, don't just happen (because they happen, because they happen, because they happen.) There are distinct causes. For instance, if you take a bucket of water and hold it upside down the water will pour out. This type of thing doesn't just happen, it happens because gravity pulled the water out of the bucket, so to speak.

This might seem determined, but it is not. Its a reaction to an action. If we were determined there would be absolutely no rhyme or reason to universe and things would just happen, because they happen, because they happen, because they happen, because they happen.


Well, how do we know that logic doesn't exist just because it exist? Maybe logic was predetermined as well as a foundation to the universe.

Also, there doesn't have to be a "divinity" for there to be determinism. Even if the only thing that existed was the big-bang - determinism can still be true.


Originally posted by BendedBones
I choose to believe I have free will. If a scientist can hook me up to a machine and tell me what I am going to think before I think it, then I will have the proof that I require to accept that belief.


But there are scientists that do this. Not only do scientists know what a person will do, before they do it, but they know it 6 seconds before. So it is not just 1 second or 2, it is before they even decided. Source 1], [Source 2]
edit on 11-12-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by BendedBones
 


Nicely put, I choose to give you your first star !

Yeah isn't there like ton's of literature on this issue, Kant, Plato, Hegel etc. Best to read up before getting into Philosophical debates.

Oh hell that was merely my reaction to liking your input - oh no we really are all just organic machines running our own enviromentally adjusted operating systems !!
edit on 11-12-2012 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?


There is only the will of the one creator. You are a representation of that. You are controlled by something that is controlling all. You are the creator, but your body is a creation. Respect the creation as if it was you creating it(which it is). Do not try to control others. Watch them be created from you. Allow them their freedom, and then you will understand why you created them. You will see what you have been missing. You will watch all mundane and seemingly pointless things come to an end. You will experience majesty and all will be coordinated as if everything is happening for you. You will experience the world as if it is under your complete control, yet you are allowing freedom.

Your awareness will move precisely where it should to a position that sees an orchestrated dance of life. You are the creator. You don't have to do anything except be in the moment. Creation happens as naturally and automatically as breathing for the creator.

Right now, what you're doing, as the creator, is creating the illusion that you are the creation. You are not your body. You are the one behind all eyes. You are behind every desire, emotion, and choice. You are doing it all, but look around. How much are you really "doing" for what happens outside of your body to happen? Youre not doing anything. Creation flows effortlessly from your being. Just watch.

Your own thoughts, ideas, interpretations, desires, and actions are of the same creator that is effortlessly manifesting the rest of the universe.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by Hopeforeveryone
 


Perhaps the implications are, but the question at hand is more a scientific than philosophical debate, in my opinion.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by BcnDiamond
 


I believe until we have a full understanding of the human brain and quite a bit more physics it's still a matter of belief really. I'd like to think we have free will but that's a product of my neurons and my world view, also a product of my neurons. Most of our lives we just are mechanically going through the motions but we do, I think, on certain occasions we have a chance to act in ways that would indicate we have choices. Without choices there is no free will or a need for it.
edit on 11-12-2012 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?


I think you misunderstand the concept of "free will" and "consequence". Free will offers you the choice of how you will respond keeping in mind what consequences may follow. It is true that the choice you make is based on a consequence but that's the beauty of free will, to try to predict the future and follow the path you think is best for you or everyone else.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by BcnDiamond

Actually, about your last sentence, they can actually prove that and did so.
And btw, how do you make the leap from lack of free will to a divine cause?


I wasn't referring to God or Gods even, just whatever you believe is responsible for reality.


Originally posted by arpgme

What would cause the divine to create the universe? That would be another interesting question.


The trick is there can be no reason
That's why the majority of non-zealots choose to disbelieve the notion. At least, as far as Divine Command goes.


Well, how do we know that logic doesn't exist just because it exist? Maybe logic was predetermined as well as a foundation to the universe.

Also, there doesn't have to be a "divinity" for there to be determinism. Even if the only thing that existed was the big-bang - determinism can still be true.


Divine is a hot word around here! Too many zealots bogging down these boards and confusing peoples brains



But there are scientists that do this. Not only do scientists know what a person will do, before they do it, but they know it 6 seconds before. So it is not just 1 second or 2, it is before they even decided. Source 1], [Source 2]
edit on 11-12-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)


So the observer and the subject both know the stimulus but both are unaware of the choice until its been made. I think this test proves more (and many more like it, even the one posted in the Dr. Quantum video) are delving into the power of the subconscious. I fully accept that my subconscious knows what I am going to do before I do it, its like knowing you are going to wake from a dream before you actually wake up. We simply can't parse all the data we receive from outward and inward stimuli on a conscious level as quickly as we can subconsciously. These videos (maybe poor choices?) both seem to stretch the actual intents of the experiments and the data gathered from them to fit the agenda.


Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone

Nicely put, I choose to give you your first star !

Yeah isn't there like ton's of literature on this issue, Kant, Plato, Hegel etc. Best to read up before getting into Philosophical debates.

Oh hell that was merely my reaction to liking your input - oh no we really are all just organic machines running our own enviromentally adjusted operating systems !!
edit on 11-12-2012 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)


Hey! Thanks so much! There is a ton of literature on it! Hobbes is a big name. He did a lot of work on determinism outside of any religious undertones and focused more on the scientific evidence of a mechanical function to all actions and reactions in reality. Descartes also (arguably) did some work here as well! Empiricists in general had to answer a lot of these tough questions before they could even leave their bedrooms



Originally posted by BcnDiamond

Perhaps the implications are, but the question at hand is more a scientific than philosophical debate, in my opinion.


If you are arguing that A inevitably leads to B and therefore in the presence of A, B must surely follow; well I have no clue what were arguing about. That's pretty straight forward.

But free will and determinism are philosophical questions, because science simply cannot answer them.

Accept that some things in this universe we will never be able to know. Even a million, or a gazillion years of technological advancement wont answer and identify everything. There will always be something to small, or to fast, or to large, or to slow for us to even know it exists.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
reply to post by BcnDiamond
 


I believe until we have a full understanding of the human brain and quite a bit more physics it's still a matter of belief really. I'd like to think we have free will but that's a product of my neurons and my world view, also a product of my neurons. Most of our lives we just are mechanically going through the motions but we do, I think, on certain occasions we have a chance to act in ways that would indicate we have choices. Without choices there is no free will or a need for it.
edit on 11-12-2012 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)


Agree, atleast with the first part.
Although I think most of what we know at this point, however relatively little, points more to the direction of a lack of free will. The last part is interesting, there not being free will and therefore no need for it, not to be mistaking with fatalism.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by jacobe001
I have always wondered about this as well.

If we take say, 10 chemicals and mix them together one buy one until we get a big explosion, the explosion was caused by a set of reactions one buy one until the explosion. took off.

Likewise, all actions, thoughts, social conditioning, genetic makeup etc could lead to a reaction as well.

From an atheistic perspective, how could an atheist argue otherwise since we are not outside of the laws of science but are subject to them just as everything else is.

From a scientific point of view, if we had all the data past and present on an individual, then we should be able to predict what their next move is. Just as we can do for any other physical object in the universe.

Of course, I myself do not believe we are limited to just the physical sciences, as an atheist would and believe we are metaphysical with experiences extending into the "past" "present" and "future"

I understand what you are saying. But, the chemicals would not have been mixed if you had not "chosen" to mix them. Meaning, they would not have mixed themselves. Free will, in my opinion, can only be exerted by a living creature. Otherwise, it's just cause and effect. The way of the universe.

Predicting what someone will do and knowing are two very different things.

Good point though
edit on 11-12-2012 by ArchaicDesigns because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-12-2012 by ArchaicDesigns because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by jacobe001
 

Dear jacobe001,

Please forgive me if I misunderstand your question to me.

Are we outside the laws of physics, science, causation?
Physical objects are not outside the laws of science or physics. I'm not sure what you mean by the laws of causation. Events have causes, if that's what you mean.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by BendedBones
So the observer and the subject both know the stimulus but both are unaware of the choice until its been made. I think this test proves more (and many more like it, even the one posted in the Dr. Quantum video) are delving into the power of the subconscious. I fully accept that my subconscious knows what I am going to do before I do it, its like knowing you are going to wake from a dream before you actually wake up. We simply can't parse all the data we receive from outward and inward stimuli on a conscious level as quickly as we can subconsciously. These videos (maybe poor choices?) both seem to stretch the actual intents of the experiments and the data gathered from them to fit the agenda.

Im glad you accept that, but that would prove an illusion of free will. You have no control over your subconscious.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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The ultimate question, I guess, is: do we get to decide how much something is worth to us?

Since that is the game, right? personal view of the cost/benefit.

I believe that yes, the fact that our environment dictate every consequence (cost/benefit), that plays a huge role, but we still got or free-will to govern our own value of the consequence(cost/benefit).

The two things (environment / the self) can co-exist.






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