How can there be free-will when our Will is just a response to circumstances?

For example, if someone punches you, then a will may form to punch back. This is not "free-will" this is just a response to a circumstance (someone punching you).

If you believe in "Peace" and not fighting, then you may walk away, and claim that was "free-will", but it wasn't. Because you understood "Peace" (a circumstance), you decided to not act on the other Will (desire) to punch back, but instead you acted on the will (desire) for peace and walk away.

What do you think about this?

Your free-will is what allows you to choose to fight or run.

Our ability to react to circumstance is our will, and it's free.

reply to post by arpgme

Regardless of your reaction, the guy who punched you did so with his own free will.

reply to post by ThisToiletEarth

Originally posted by ThisToiletEarth
Our ability to react to circumstance is our will, and it's free.

What makes it "free"?


reply to post by Parksie

Originally posted by Parksie


Regardless of your reaction, the guy who punched you did so with his own free will.

How do you know that his will was "free"? There was circumstances that caused him to want to punch you, and it was the belief, perspectives, outlook from life that caused him to act on it...

reply to post by arpgme


Life is a series of circumstances.
Our free will allows us to react or not react or not even be involved in a circumstance when we can see the outcome even before we become involved.

We aren't animals with just fight or flight responses. We have the rational ability to recognize situations and deal with them however we see fit.

Based on my first reaction, and the reactions of the other posters, maybe you should explain what you think free will is.

I don't think you negate free will by saying someone chose their response to a certain stimulus. But that's what you seem to be saying.

Do we choose who we are? what we think is right or wrong? What we like and dislike? I must admit, I don't think so. However, you can choose not to act on those things. I'm sure most have had thoughts about stealing, murdering or raping, but they control their impulses, and that is free-will.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by ThisToiletEarth

 

Originally posted by ThisToiletEarth
Our ability to react to circumstance is our will, and it's free.

What makes it "free"?

Show me a receipt to show otherwise.

reply to post by arpgme


How can they say Angels have no free will then in the same breath explain Satan's fall? Obviously he had the freewill to fall and not follow The Almighty's Commands.

reply to post by arpgme


Your "free-will" is you ability to choose. You can either choose to punch back or not to punch back... Or to even run away. You are free to choose whatever you like.

The only constant is changing circumstances, this is life.

reply to post by arpgme

Overcoming our desire to fight back is a sure test of ones will. If you did that you made the harder choice. That "choice" proves you are in control of your emotions.

Call it what you will.

This is why we have to endure the wrath of chemicals released from the master system, usually it is fear that interrupts free-will. You didn't save the old lady from the fire because there was a spider and your free will betrayed your innocent good nature because everyone can't be a hero.

reply to post by iamdavid

Originally posted by iamdavid
Do we choose who we are? what we think is right or wrong? What we like and dislike? I must admit, I don't think so. However, you can choose not to act on those things. I'm sure most have had thoughts about stealing, murdering or raping, but they control their impulses, and that is free-will.

Are you sure that we have a choice to act or not act? Why would someone not act on their desire? Because they learned different things on their life journey (cause) leading them to not acting (effect).


reply to post by ThisToiletEarth



That's a logical fallacy called the burden of proof [1]. If you are claiming that will is "free" (free-will) regardless of the fact that our desires are a result of our life experiences, learned perspectives, and circumstances, then it is up to you to prove it - not to me to disprove it.

Originally posted by arpgme
That's a logical fallacy called the burden of proof [1]. If you are claiming that will is "free" (free-will) regardless of the fact that our desires are a result of our life experiences, learned perspectives, and circumstances, then it is up to you to prove it - not to me to disprove it.

Blah blah blah.
Circumstance: Your statement declaring I have something to prove to you.

My free will: Later amigo. I have NOTHING to prove to you.

Total cost: $0.00

I think as we make choices in our life it will effect our free will on future choices. What starts off as free will can change to a set of predetermined reactions accumulated over someones life untill they finally learn the proper response. Things that the emotional mind thought was right at the time (usualy growing up) learns the hard way and now logic makes more sense. You hurt someone you can go to jail ect. There is also that mob metality where lets say the attacker was with a group of friends, his actions could be influenced by them just by standing there. If there is 10 people with him well then he only feels 10% responsible for his actions and maybe he wants impress his friends?. I really feel like what starts out as free will changes to a predetermined response untill he or she learns the concequences of their actions. So I have to agree with that yes some of our actions can be predetermined but it really was free choice from the start. Life is a learning experience and not everyone has the prefect teachers/idols growing up.

reply to post by ThisToiletEarth

Originally posted by ThisToiletEarth
Blah blah blah.

In other words, "blah blah blah" to logical fallacies. You don't care that your reasoning is illogical.

Originally posted by ThisToiletEarth

Circumstance: Your statement declaring I have something to prove to you.

My free will: Later amigo. I have NOTHING to prove to you.

You are right about the circumstance, but the EFFECT was you leaving and not proving it. That does not show "FREE" will.

reply to post by nyancat

Originally posted by nyancat
I think as we make choices in our life it will effect our free will on future choices. What starts off as free will can change to a set of predetermined reactions accumulated over someones life untill they finally learn the proper response.

But if you are a baby, and your parents are already adults that lived their own life experiences and have learned their own beliefs/perspectives - doesn't if follow that this is where their actions will stem from in regards of raising a baby unless their beliefs/perspectives change? So that baby will have its earliest experiences around people who are already convinced that a world is a "Certain way" and that "These" actions are good and "Those" actions are bad for "X" reason...

reply to post by arpgme


Well, here's the best example I can come up with for now.... I love watching movies about aliens... But afterwards I have trouble sleeping. The thought of them, coming to get ME for experiments freaks me the # out

So why do I watch then, when I know for sure from experience, that afterwards I will regret it? Because I choose to, with my own stupid free will

I have always wondered about this as well.

If we take say, 10 chemicals and mix them together one buy one until we get a big explosion, the explosion was caused by a set of reactions one buy one until the explosion. took off.

Likewise, all actions, thoughts, social conditioning, genetic makeup etc could lead to a reaction as well.

From an atheistic perspective, how could an atheist argue otherwise since we are not outside of the laws of science but are subject to them just as everything else is.

From a scientific point of view, if we had all the data past and present on an individual, then we should be able to predict what their next move is. Just as we can do for any other physical object in the universe.

Of course, I myself do not believe we are limited to just the physical sciences, as an atheist would and believe we are metaphysical with experiences extending into the "past" "present" and "future"

I like the question, but I don't think the concept of a lack of free will is understood so far. The discussion is about every action having a number of causes, and the question of; is there a gap in this format that would allow room for the concept of true free will, as many people believe they have.

Originally posted by Chinvenzo
Your free-will is what allows you to choose to fight or run.

Yet your decision is depended on certain factors. Your decision may have been influenced by previous events, similar experience, mood, level of alcohol in your blood, list goes on and on. And almost every factor can be traced back and so forth. Every action is a logical reaction to a cause, so you never really have free will in the decision whether you choose to fight, run or perhaps decide to dance as a reaction.

Originally posted by Parksie
reply to post by arpgme

 

Regardless of your reaction, the guy who punched you did so with his own free will.

Same for the guy who punched, his decision to punch depended on certain factors, many uncontrollable by him. (not that the question of controllable or uncontrollable factors really matters in this)

Originally posted by iamdavid
Do we choose who we are? what we think is right or wrong? What we like and dislike? I must admit, I don't think so. However, you can choose not to act on those things. I'm sure most have had thoughts about stealing, murdering or raping, but they control their impulses, and that is free-will.

You can choose not to act on things, but that decision comes from every single thing that contributed to that decision, again not by free will.


I think for every single action, the number of causes is so large, that you could never trace it back to a single source. Be glad, we at least have the illusion or sense of free will.