Some People Don't Care About Logic

This is something I have had a very hard time accepting, and honestly still don't really understand. Despite the fact that my viewpoints have changed considerably over time, I have always tried to run information through logic. Logic has always been the driving force of my thinking. I have always assumed that everyone was essentially driven by logic, and accepted that logic was the method for discovering truth.

The reason people have all of these different points of view, I thought, was because, based on the information they had available to them, they think it is the most logical. This is why I have always been very interested in learning the REASONING behind things, and also debating. If someone could see that their position was illogical, and if something else could be proven using pure logic, it would be impossible for someone to deny. Over time, having conversations with people, such as my parents, I have been struck with something that seems to be true, though I have a hard time accepting it. Some people really do not care about logic.

I must admit, I occasionally get angry during certain debates. I am OK with someone having a different view, so long as they have a logical basis for that view. When I get angry, is when I explain the logic of a position in great depth, and the response I get is just a rejection, and a re-statement of their position. I say, either there MUST BE a flaw in my line of reasoning, or you must have a line of reasoning that is superior, more logical, than mine. If so, what is the flaw of my reasoning, or what reasoning of yours supersedes mine? There is no answer. They have no ability to disprove my logic, and they have no logical argument of their own that cannot be disproven using my line of reasoning. They just disagree.

This is infuriating to me, because it means that not only is their position NOT logical, they legitimately don't care about logic, itself. If a person doesn't care about logic, then nothing can ever help them see any other perspective. If you don't care about logic, you can virtually believe ANYTHING, and noone can say or do anything to deter you, because only logical reasoning can disprove something. Therefore, if you don't care about logical reasoning itself, then you're just completely shut off to everything. I guess I'm writing this because it just does not make sense to me. I can understand how someone can have a position that turns out to be illogical. What literally DOES NOT compute in my brain, is how someone can honestly not even care about logic, and be perfectly comfortable with being illogical, since logic means nothing to such a person.

I cant stand even being around somewhat irrational illogical people, WITH NO PRINCIPLES. That why I avoid certain types like: religious nut bags,who try and tell me what to do,where to go and what music to listen to, all the unprincipled people that I lost all respect for when they voted for gingrich and santorum , people that are 50 and still playing green day and workin at the surf shop who think they are cool,,people that get crazy agro about surfing when to me its JUST lots of fun to slide on water and do hard turns, people who think they have seen Utah but only visited salt lake city, people who buy a 40,000 dollar truck but their 2 kids boy/girl 12/10 share a small bedroom, people who turn a blind eye to a candidates sending jobs to china,people who fuss about china and buy chinese junk at walmart, people who watch mainstream shows like x factor and askme who is gonna win,,AAAAARGH! Like I know, and the thing about it is, Im not even trying at all to be different , or difficult, but yeah I hear what your sayin

reply to post by TheJourney


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is this a voice of reason I see in the Philosophy section of ATS? Everyone take a picture.

I commend you my good man. Luckily it isn't possible to live in paradox and contradiction outside of language, or then we'd really be in trouble. But people should be responsible for what they say.

I'm not a fan of binary logic but I like meta-logic.

There are more fans of comfort than there are fans of logic. I think that says everything there is to say, but I might be wrong.

Originally posted by TheJourney
What literally DOES NOT compute in my brain, is how someone can honestly not even care about logic, and be perfectly comfortable with being illogical, since logic means nothing to such a person.

It's a question of motivation. You are clearly a thinker, somebody who needs answers, who has a need to be right (I don't mean this in a bad way) and hopes that his life shows him an ever-improving approximation to the truth.

Not all people share this motivation. Think of the stereotypical artist type. If anything, this person wants his life to show him an ever-improving approximation to some ideal beauty. (Correct me if I'm wrong artists: I am not an artist type though I sometimes play one when I'm high).

One thing you need to realize about logic is that it's a tool, not a motivating force. Logic doesn't get you out of bed in the morning, but an underlying fear of being late for work might. You might, however, employ logic to figure out a way to better cut it close, if you want to sleep in that extra 10 minutes.

But not all tools are the best thing for all types of motivations. If you are motivated to seek the truth, or even motivated by something more base like intellectual vanity, you're going to need logic. If you're motivated by pussy, raw instincts make a much better tool (although people whose instincts are broken and really have only logic to work with have their ways too; I'm thinking of the seduction community).

Now, this is somewhat a Devil's Advocate argument. I myself am of the opinion that logic can help anybody no matter what their aims are. It certainly can't hurt, anyway. I think formal logic should be taught, mandatory, starting in middle school, and should be taught for a few years in increasingly advanced classes. I think the world would be a better place for it.

reply to post by TheJourney


Illogical people can be frustrating, but what really fries my chair fat is how so many people don't even know how to carry on a simple conversation. You know, I tell you my ideas and opinions, you tell me your ideas and opinions, and sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.

But, there are arrogant putzes out there that think a conversation is when they tell you what you need to do, read, experience, or research. These people don't even realize how they come off looking like know-it-alls that no one wants to converse with. And, most of their advice is wrong!

reply to post by TheJourney


Thank you for posting your thoughts in this matter. Oftentimes, I feel exactly the same way. My thought when confronted with such a situation is that, if you don't care about logic as much as you care about comfort or tradition, then why bother with the truth? If you're not interested in logical conclusion, you're not interested in truth. And if you're not interested in truth, then I honestly see no point in that kind of person being on this site. Just as a priest with no interest in science doesn't have a place in a laboratory, those uninterested in rational thought shouldn't be on this site.

I understand about being able to voice your opinions, but there has to be a line somewhere. I've seen it drawn several times, but somehow, even the most asinine of illogical positions remains unchecked. I don't CARE about freedom of speech. I care about not spreading ignorance. And if such things are condoned here at ATS, what are we to expect from ATS in the future? More of the same? Then there's no point in coming here, is there? More and more people will disregard logic until logic itself becomes reverted.

This is what I'm afraid of.

reply to post by TheJourney


When something cannot be explained it will appear to be illogical. Maybe they just know that what they are saying is true but don't know how to explain it in a logical way.

To a caveman, maybe the idea of flying in a plane carrying many people will seem illogical (because of the weight). The more we learn about the world and grow, the more the so-called "Illogical" appears to be more "logical" than we thought.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened

I think you are right about the motivating force behind people's thoughts. Some people aren't motivated by truth, and I suppose if someone isn't motivated by truth logic may not be that important. I guess what gets me, is that if you don't care about truth, or logic, then you really shouldn't have strong opinions about things regarding truth, which require logic.

reply to post by TheJourney


People aren't motivated by truth anymore. It's so easy to fake everything now. What they want is a useful lie. When truth becomes rare, useful lies become the new trend. As long as you sleep at night and can find the courage to get up in the morning, it's all good. And sometimes, fighting is just too hard. People are too tired. They don't want a war of the mind. That's too much for them. They are too weak, intellectually and spiritually.

You could even say that in some ways, we've already lost. The war is over, we're in chains now. We just don't know it yet. It's certainly arguable...

Where is it written in stone that humans are a logical species?

If we were nothing but logic then it would be boring. Everyone would come to the same logical conclusions about everything and become basically robots.

reply to post by TheJourney


One thing I have learned in my life and all the people I have met in all the different places I have gone. What seems perfectly LOGICAL to you or me is not so for others.

Even if you were to place the data on charts with the Math that proved without any doubt what something is is proven to be this or that...they don't care.

This is why there is a TRUTH and a FACT. Most people base what they think, act and believe upon TRUTHS. They cannot discern the difference between these TRUTHS and the actual FACTS.

As an example...a person looks up at the sky and says...the sky is BLUE. I say...No...YOU see BLUE because your Human Eyes are limited to what Frequency of the Light Spectrum you can see. The FACT is that the SKY is a Multitude of Colors of which you can only see BLUE.

The other person get's angry and says...I don't care what you say...THE SKY IS BLUE!

The moment that a person challenges another's beliefs and concepts that are ingrained so deeply in their minds that for someone else to offer the FACTS...they just shut down and become intractable and hold on even tighter to their loved TRUTHS.

This unfortunately is Human Nature and believe me I wish people could be open to consider the possibility that there is much more to reality than we all know. This of course is why we have RELIGION.

Split Infinity

What is "logical"? Two people are having an argument about gun control. For example, this latest Oregon shooter. person "A" says this is another example of a lack of gun control, and logically, as this incident proves, we need to ban AR-15s. Person "B" says this is a perfect example of gun control, and had the mall not "banned" the presence of guns, an armed citizen could have had a chance of taking out this scum, but since this was a "gun free zone," no one was prepared. Logically, to him, gun control helped cause this situation. Both people believe they are being "logical" and will decry the "lack of logic" in the other person's argument.

Long time ago I took a class in symbolic logic from the department of philosophy. We did the old "If A implies B and B imples C then A implies C" schtick using the symbolic logic character set, where "implies was a left opening "U" I can't show on this page. Some of the problems were very very complex and, frankly, it was a lot of fun doing them.

But the one thing I remember was that depending on which way you went with your logic, you could prove "A" or you could prove "Not A" and if you substituted statements for "A", "B", etc. you got yourself a bona fide argument. Now I can't do that today. The problems took up the entire blackboard, but they are in Copi's "Introduction to Logic," still available, albeit expensive, if you want to check out the veracity of what I'm saying.

So I pointed this out to the Prof, that you could prove "A" or "Not A" depending on the route and the transformations you made, and he said,

"Well, that's considered cheating." with kind of a wry grin.

What people normally mean when they say, "That person is illogical," is that "He doesn't agree with me."

Another issue is that we base our perception of "logic" on our own premis of how we suppose capital-R Reality to be. I've been doing some extensive research into Steven Greer lately. He's considered a charlatan by most on ATS, someone who has gone off the deep end, is crazy and "illogical," But that's really way too easy a claim. His Reality is different than yours or mine. Where we see a blinking light, at best, he sees a spaceship.

Now you may scoff and call him illogical with disdain in your voice, but if you went one on one with Greer about the issue, you'd probably lose. Notice I'm not saying you'd be WRONG. I'm saying you would LOSE a "logical" argument because, frankly, Greer is a pretty smart guy, quick on his feet, and quiet capable of turning you into a pretzel with his brand of "logic."

So when I hear these arguments about OTHER people being illogical, I just grin.

kdFPLAJ

In my opinion, logic is a tool, not quite a mindset. I think everyone realizes the limits of language, as it is also happens to be the limits of our understanding. We need logic to scale the web of language and to keep sure footing and to remain clear of contradiction. Reality cannot contradict itself. A lot of logic is unnecessary, or it cannot serve its purpose, but it remains as the only tool we possess to sift through the mess of abstractions and illusion. Logic, as a method and practice, deserves due care.

Good job OP

reply to post by TheJourney


Logic all depends on you goal... If you want to know the truth then logic will get you there.

if you want to believe in a magical kingdom ruled by a rapist foreskin monger, then logic can get you there too.

reply to post by schuyler


I too took symbolic logic.

Read this if you get the chance (if you haven't already). Tractatus Logic-Philosophicus by Ludwig Wittgenstein. It almost ruined philosophy and logic for me. Skip Russel's introduction to get to the meat. Interesting and almost poetic logic is throughout.

"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent."

reply to post by Wertdagf


Logic can only be used on the willing, and therein lies its most principle flaw. Probably one of the truest things you will ever read on this website, given how often it is demonstrated.

reply to post by Terminal1


Logic being boring, and therefore unpleasant, would come to the conclusion that to be logical is unpleasant and therefore illogical in practice. It would then determine that the logical was illogical, and the illogical, logical, and quickly deteriorate into a maelstrom of irrational chaos until it decided to dedicate itself to a more rational mode of living centered on logic.