A logical problem witih "Hell"

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This thread has run its course there is not a logical processes claimed by the OP throughout the thread. As the thread progressed there was more and more fantasy and conjecture added.

It is obvious the OP does not believe the Bible to be true and that was his premise from the start. Best to see that he had presented a straw man argument only to knock it down and have a few of us join into the discussion only to belittle and degrade.

You will just have to wait then until you die to find out if there is a Hell or not. That is that there is something more than just a grave awaiting all.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


You: *sticks fingers in ears* "LA LA LA LA LA"

Originally posted by ChesterJohn
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This thread has run its course there is not a logical processes claimed by the OP throughout the thread. As the thread progressed there was more and more fantasy and conjecture added.

It is obvious the OP does not believe the Bible to be true and that was his premise from the start. Best to see that he had presented a straw man argument only to knock it down and have a few of us join into the discussion only to belittle and degrade.

You will just have to wait then until you die to find out if there is a Hell or not. That is that there is something more than just a grave awaiting all.

edit on 14-12-2012 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)

Im at work at the moment... So i'll keep this brief

I don't work on the premise that the bible is true because it says it is... You might... Feel free

There is truth within said book... But the christian idea of hell is exacty as you stated... Fantasy... A notion designed to induce fear... Which is a means for conversion...

The point of this thread is to present an arguement that shows that... There is nothing logical about a loving merciful God that tosses his children into a "lake of fire" or what have you.

Christians claim their God is love.... And there is nothing loving about eternal damnation

I'll be back later

Here, I agree wholeheartedly with Akragon. "Hell" has no basis outside Dante, Milton, lesser authors of fiction, makers of unverifiable EweToob vids, and badly translated Bibles. I'm free of such neo-pagan baggage.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Interesting to hear, Lazarus. Are you a proponent of annihilationism then? I think quite a few of the Christians here at ATS subscribe to it. It definitely seems less sadistic and even more practical, when you hear the "God hates sin" argument for "hell". If it's hated so much, destroy it outright I guess, but I'm not God, or even a Christian, so one could be completely off-base here. Would be nice to hear more on your opinion, though.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Interesting to hear, Lazarus. Are you a proponent of annihilationism then? I think quite a few of the Christians here at ATS subscribe to it. It definitely seems less sadistic and even more practical, when you hear the "God hates sin" argument for "hell". If it's hated so much, destroy it outright I guess, but I'm not God, or even a Christian, so one could be completely off-base here. Would be nice to hear more on your opinion, though.

reply to post by adjensen

Hey, I didn't say it was pleasant, I said it was logical.

By your reasoning, immunizations are a bad idea, because it's not a good idea to go poking holes in yourself and introducing foreign substances, on the off chance that you might get sick someday.

Of course, we need not be lopping off hands or gouging eyes, as we have salvation through him, but his point, though extreme, is valid.

Alright i'll concede this point...

Yes, I sound like a broken record, because you're doing this all the time -- you habitually practice eisegesis, because the Bible doesn't say what you want it to say, so you read it in such a way as to conform to your beliefs.

Well lets look at that definition...

Eisegesis (from Greek εἰς "into" as opposed to exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text. The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda.

Sounds exactly like what Christians do to me....

Yes i have my own interpretations of scripture... but its only because what your religion teaches about certiain topics within the bible are just wrong in my humble opinion... Further more Christians will see a blatant contradiction or error within the texts and just explain it away using books that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand... and they can do it with a straight face!! No punchline or anything!!

God is love... right? IF thats the case how the hell.... is hell a loving solution to any problem?

Personally i think that word was invented by Christians for Christians in an attempt to convince those that are not of their religion that there is only one Interpretation of Scripture... Unfortunatly Christianity itself shows that there are many interpretations... IF there wasn't there would be ONLY one Version of Christianity... but we know how that turned out don't we...

Jesus frequently refers to hell as being a real, physical place, where the wicked are punished for eternity.

Not true at all... He uses Hell as an allogorical statement...

IF it were a real phyical place there would be real physical people within said firey place... and i garentee that if you cracked open the coffen of the most evil diabolical person that ever lived... his real phyical remains would still be there... not burning in some mythical crockpot...

Lets try a different approach though...

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Now.... do you recall any passage where Jesus dips peoples heads in fire?

It is not an invention of Paul,

When did i say it was?

t is not an allegory to "hell on Earth" or anything else that supports your logical problem posted in the OP.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree...

Here's an idea... instead of starting with your expected result -- that hell can't exist because it implies a non-corporeal being suffering physical pain -- and then working your way backward to determine your interpretation of scripture, why not start with what Jesus says and follow that through to see if there's not a way to comprehend him saying it in a literal way.

Well you see... unlike your average Christian i don't take everything he said litterally... In real life we don't go around hacking peoples hands off, and yanking peoples eyes out if they displease us... Perhaps in some countries but not in the civilized world...

Hell is a fantasy created to induce fear in the general population... as a matter of fact... i have issues believing Jesus ever mentioned hell at all... im more inclined to believe the word was inserted into scripture to comply with older hebrew/jewish beliefs... and considering the authors of the gospels were all from said sect of religion... its likely right.

I might be wrong of course... i make no claims to know everything... but considering how many holes are in the beliefs of the abrahamic religions.... why not add a few more eh?

Originally posted by ihavenoaccount
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Interesting to hear, Lazarus. Are you a proponent of annihilationism then? I think quite a few of the Christians here at ATS subscribe to it. It definitely seems less sadistic and even more practical, when you hear the "God hates sin" argument for "hell". If it's hated so much, destroy it outright I guess, but I'm not God, or even a Christian, so one could be completely off-base here. Would be nice to hear more on your opinion, though.

No, I subscribe to Universal Reconciliation.
If you stress the justice of God, you will subscribe to the Eternal Torture of the wicked.
If you stress the mercy of God, you will subscribe to the Eternal Destruction of the wicked.
If you stress the love of God, you will subscribe to the Universal Reconciliation of the wicked.

We are all wicked, so only UR gives anyone (and everyone!) a chance.

BTW, God is love, so UR is correct.

Originally posted by Akragon
Hell is described by most "religionists" as a place of eternal torment and torture... A place you will go after you die if you don't accept what these people believe and convert immediately...

Of course this ridiculous idea is nothing more then a fear tactic used to scare people into conversion... but there is a logical problem with the idea of Hell...

IF one is sent to "Hell" for said "eternal torture and torment"... That person would have to be alive to experience said firey torment...

Pain is purely phyiscal... it is experienced when the physical body goes through a trama of some sort

In order to experience pain, said person needs a few things...

1. A brain...

2. A spinal cord...

3. Nerve endings

Without which pain can not be experienced...

When one passes beyond this life... the body remains in the physical world and left to decay and return to the dust from which we're made...

Thus the concept of Hell being a place of pain and anguish is nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion as i've stated previously... designed specifically to pray on the natural instinct of all creatures to fear pain...

IF you slap a dog he will naturally grow to fear you... because it is ingrained into all life that experiences pain to fear it...

Churches and religious denominations throughout history have prayed on peoples fears... Fear of loosing your soul, fear of eternal torture if you don't follow what they tell you to believe.

But i tell you... Fear not my friends... There is no pain beyond this life...

The physical world is only a stepping stone...

So conversion is an option?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

If you stress the justice of God, you will subscribe to the Eternal Torture of the wicked.
If you stress the mercy of God, you will subscribe to the Eternal Destruction of the wicked.
If you stress the love of God, you will subscribe to the Universal Reconciliation of the wicked.

I think, instead of always asking for money, this "God" dude should start asking for patience. For instance, I have given my own parents a hell of a time as a child. As a result, I was cold shouldered into doing things my way, AWAY from the family. Just recently, I found out my mother was in the hospital in the area and called her. We're getting together for Christmas.

So see, stressing the mercy or love of ANYTHING should not equate to punishment. If you are punished for stressing love, then it is not love, it is servitude. I don't see the point in you taking part in a thread on the logical problems of hell when you can't even think logically.

At best, you are a parrot. Parrots aren't known for critical thinking.

Logically there is no death. Think about it - have you experienced death?
Everlasting life is what Jesus came to tell you about, he shared the good news.
Life is everlasting not just for those who believe in Christ.
And it can be experienced as hell or heaven.

How can one be 'logical' about a concept, an idea?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


That's a great way of looking at it, death is only an illusion.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

That's a great way of looking at it, death is only an illusion.

Death is myth. What will die? A set of beliefs, that is all. Do it now and get it over with. Forget who you 'think' you are.
Who you 'think' you are is the one making life hell. Let the false self go and then the two become one and there it is - the kingdom.

Your absence is the presence.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I thought what I posted was quite logical. On the other hand, your post did not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could clarify? Oh, and I am not a parrot, for I thought up the three lines you quoted on my own. So there.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Your "God" is judgmental. Love is not judgmental. Hence, your argument made no sense.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Your "God" is judgmental. Love is not judgmental. Hence, your argument made no sense.

I didn't realise I was making an argument, as I was trying to point out the consequences of people's belief, what kind of God they believed in as it correlated with the kind of afterlife they believed in. I thought it made perfect sense. You are correct in that Love is not judgmental, but neither is God. Let me explain: God is Love. God sent His Son to teach us and to die in our place. Jesus said that no man had greater Love than the One who would lay down His life for His friends - which Jesus did. Jesus also said that He did not come to judge to world, but to save it. Are we on the same page now?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I didn't realise I was making an argument, as I was trying to point out the consequences of people's belief

Beliefs are based on observation (I hope). If there is a reason provided for rational belief, then rational belief will follow. Or at the very least, consideration. And consideration is always the first step to belief.

You are correct in that Love is not judgmental, but neither is God. Let me explain: God is Love. God sent His Son to teach us and to die in our place. Jesus said that no man had greater Love than the One who would lay down His life for His friends - which Jesus did. Jesus also said that He did not come to judge to world, but to save it. Are we on the same page now?

Not precisely, but I'm listening. If "God" doesn't judge, then why did he make hell? According to the Bible, he is omniscient, which means he crafted each and every 'seat', per se, knowing exactly who would sit there and why. And despite all this understanding and love and compassion he supposedly has, he didn't change a damn thing. Even though he designed every person so they would do exactly what they did to earn that chair, even though they were tempted to do so by a being that he created, even though that crime of which they are guilty is one he generated the opportunity for and gave them reasons to give in, he still judges them with eternal damnation.

In all actuality, he is the source of the problem. Every problem can be traced back to his hand, and he still blames us for the weaknesses he gave us, which force us to stumble from the obstacles he places in our paths. He gives us our cards, and then he plays just the right cards to foil our cards, knowing exactly what we will do with every turn, then he still damns us for failing. But you say, in contrast to the Bible, that he doesn't judge.

Can you explain that to me?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


First off, God did not make a place called "Hell." Hell, as most people believe it, came in with other baggage from pagan sources such as the Scandinavian "Hel," Greek "Hades," and Latin "Inferno." Another prop for Hell is the belief in the immortality of the soul, without which eternal conscious existence in Hell would be impossible. I insist that when you're dead, you're dead - until you're resurrected, don't you see? A big prop for Hell (again, as most folks believe it) is fiction, whether it is Virgil, Milton, unproven prose accounts, or "EweToob" vids. "Hell" basically means "the grave."

As for your gripe that God has the cards stacked against you, ask yourself if that is the World, and not God. Anyway, if you give up this Eternal Torture in Hell idea, everything changes - God becomes the loving Father He always was, and your future looks bright and good, not a do-not-pass-GO-do-not-collect-$200-go-straight-to-Hell existence.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I insist that when you're dead, you're dead - until you're resurrected, don't you see?

What do you mean by "resurrected"?

As for your gripe that God has the cards stacked against you, ask yourself if that is the World, and not God.

You say that as though "God" no longer has anything to do with it.

Anyway, if you give up this Eternal Torture in Hell idea, everything changes - God becomes the loving Father He always was, and your future looks bright and good, not a do-not-pass-GO-do-not-collect-$200-go-straight-to-Hell existence.

That's not what Christianity says. I can show you several quotes from the Bible where Jesus specifically mentions eternal torture as punishment for failing "God".

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

I insist that when you're dead, you're dead - until you're resurrected, don't you see?

What do you mean by "resurrected"?

As for your gripe that God has the cards stacked against you, ask yourself if that is the World, and not God.

You say that as though "God" no longer has anything to do with it.

Anyway, if you give up this Eternal Torture in Hell idea, everything changes - God becomes the loving Father He always was, and your future looks bright and good, not a do-not-pass-GO-do-not-collect-$200-go-straight-to-Hell existence.

That's not what Christianity says. I can show you several quotes from the Bible where Jesus specifically mentions eternal torture as punishment for failing "God".

Ressurected = made alive (a living soul) again.

If you are being hammered, maybe God is trying to get your attention, and maybe you are just being hammered. He does offer you the test of sincere prayer, which you should try. After one season of very heartfelt prayer, God told me my sins were forgiven. He lined me out about some things too...

If your Bible contains Eternal Torture, you may have the wrong Bible. Did I not explain that "Hell" has four props?

1. Pagan baggage (Hel, Hades, Inferno).

2. Bad translations ("Hell" for the most part means "the grave".)

3. The doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul (in opposition to the creation of Adam as a living soul, who later, died).

4. Virgil, Milton, and all the rest of the fiction writers, good and bad.

What translation are you referring to?