A logical problem witih "Hell"

reply to post by adjensen


It's called a parable for a reason.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's called a parable for a reason.

That's not an answer. It's a parable because it's a story that teaches a lesson, not because it's all made up. Do you think that Jesus believed Moses and Abraham were fictional figures, as well?

reply to post by adjensen

par·a·ble [par-uh-buh l] Show IPA
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

I do not deny it teaches a valuable lesson. But I do disagree with literal veracity of it, as corroborated by the definition given above.

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by boymonkey74

 

I'm just stating what scripture says. Don't shoot the messenger.

Can you give us chapter and verse then, messenger? Proof texts for Hell?

You might explain how anyone can still be suffering in Hell after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire, as we see in Revelation 20:14. How people do twist this into belief in eternal torture, but they need to think it through.

Laz sez: Heaven, yes! Hell, no!!

Originally posted by adjensen

Ever read this? The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man:

The Parable Explained:

The Jews pictured by the rich man in this parable are in their present state because of their unbelief, which ultimately manifested itself in the rejection of the Messiah, Yeshua. Unfortunately, this parable shows that the punishment and testing they would undergo would not immediately lead them to Christ. Instead of calling on the Messiah, the rich man calls on his ancestor Abraham to help ease his suffering.

LUKE 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. (NKJV)

Abraham clearly identifies the rich man as his descendant by calling him "son." He tells him that things have changed. When the Jews were God's chosen people, they enjoyed the spiritual blessings associated with that status. But now, Abraham says, Lazarus is enjoying those blessings while the rich man is grieving and in sorrow. "Tormented" here is another form of odunao, the same Greek verb found above in verse 24.

LUKE 16:26 "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'" (NKJV)

What is the "great gulf" which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the eleventh chapter of Romans. He tells us that because of the Jews' unbelief, "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" (Rom. 11:8). Paul goes on to say that "a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in" (Rom. 11:25). In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul tells us that the Israelites' "minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart."

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Christ; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).

LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'" (NKJV)

Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'" (NKJV)

Once again Abraham refuses the rich man's request, telling him that the brothers already have a witness in the writings of Moses and the prophets that will allow them to escape his fate. Moses, as well as the prophets, are shown several times in the New Testament to support Yeshua's identity as the Messiah (Luke 24:27, 44; John 1:45; 5:46; Acts 3:22-24; 7:37; 26:22-23; 28:23). Abraham tells the rich man that his brothers would have to recognize the prophesied Messiah because of the things written about him in the Tanakh. This echoes what Yeshua told the Jews in John 5:45-47.

JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (NKJV)

As the Scriptures show, the Jewish leaders of Christ's day generally failed to recognize the very one Moses wrote about (Deu. 18:15, 18).

LUKE 16:30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (NKJV)

Christ uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.

But Abraham answers and plainly tells him that anyone who rejects God's Word about the Messiah will also refuse to acknowledge the evidence of a miraculous resurrection. This last verse is a sad prophecy about the Jews and about all the Israelites who have not, despite God's resurrection of His son from the power of the grave, recognized Christ as the Messiah.

Christ ends this parable abruptly, with no real resolution presented. The picture presented is a bleak one, yet there is hope for the Jews and for all Israel. In Romans 11, Paul laid out that hope in such a manner that scarcely few today have really believed it.

In Romans 11:1 Paul rhetorically asks if God has cast away His people, Israel. He answers his own question emphatically by saying "Certainly not!" He tells us that God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Paul writes that there is currently a remnant of Israel, analogous to the seven thousand reserved to God in Elijah's time (I Kings 19:18), that God has elected by grace. The rest God hardened, that the Gentiles might also be included in salvation through grace. He gives the resolution of the situation in verse 26.

ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (NKJV)

The same God that blinded Israel unto disobedience will have mercy on all that have been rebellious due to that blindness. To quote Paul once again, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" Praised be the Eternal Creator of all things!
CONCLUSION

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah. They still suffer from that fate to this very day. Yet the time is soon coming when God will pour on the Jews the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Christ whom they pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn (Zec. 12:10).

Bryan T. Huie
Updated: January 9, 1998

reply to post by Lazarus Short


You know, you toss a bunch of taurine fecal matter into any story and you can make it sound reasonable. But the fact remains: none of what you said is an incontrovertible translation. It is a POSSIBLE translation, but it's more a reflection of your desire to believe than the clear intent of the text itself. That's not something I'm willing to put my faith in. That's not something I'm willing to put ANYTHING in.

And I don't care who it is - if someone is only willing to spare me for the price of my soul, they don't deserve my soul. They don't deserve any of me. There's a particular phrase I feel fits this subject quite well: "If you can't take me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best."

That goes for "God" as well. He supposedly made me, he can take everything that is me. If he can't, he never should have allowed my birth. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
There's a particular phrase I feel fits this subject quite well: "If you can't take me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best."

Did you not know that God/Jesus DOES take you at your worst? He put His hand on me when I was a confident atheist. I'm a better person than I was as an atheist, and a lot of folks thought I was a nice person for an atheist. Do not be put off by Christians, they have their own path to follow, and you have yours.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

Good to see you again. You're always thought provoking and that's valuable here.

I don't know if I want to commit to a lot of time to this thread, but I was drawn in by your use of "logical problem."

If I understand you, your argument is:

Pain is purely physical.
There is pain in Hell,
There are no physical bodies in Hell.
Therefore, there is no Hell.

Does that sound like a solid argument to you? Isn't it just as likely that the premise "Pain is purely physical" is flawed? As you pointed out, "torment" is often the word used. Certainly, our life experiences teach us that much torment is not physical. Attend a death bed, or a funeral, or receive divorce papers, or have your house burn down, or even have your pants split open at the High School prom. There is no physical pain there, but there is certainly torment.

Realizing that you have to spend eternity without the source of life, love, and goodness. Is that not torment?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

par·a·ble [par-uh-buh l] Show IPA
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

I do not deny it teaches a valuable lesson. But I do disagree with literal veracity of it, as corroborated by the definition given above.

Yes, congratulations on posting a definition that repeats exactly what I said, but where in that definition does it say anything about the people, places and events needing to be fictional? Jesus described the place that the rich man was in terms that are commonly used to describe Hell, so was he confused, too? Or is Akragon just barking up the wrong tree again?

reply to post by adjensen

Yes, congratulations on posting a definition that repeats exactly what I said, but where in that definition does it say anything about the people, places and events needing to be fictional?

"allegory" doesn't exactly imply an accurate account. It is meant to impart a lesson, not a historical event.

Jesus described the place that the rich man was in terms that are commonly used to describe Hell, so was he confused, too? Or is Akragon just barking up the wrong tree again?

Probably because in those times, superstition was spread like wildfire by people too stupid to employ logic.

I know hell exists. I've been there more than a few times. There is beer in Hell. gotohellmi.com...

reply to post by Akragon


Hi there Akragon!

I also believe that hell is a tool of fear, used to keep the masses in line. I know that it worked on me as a child.

In the house I grew up in, we were taught that Jesus was coming, like a thief in the night, to steal away his bride, leaving behind chaos, piles of bodiless clothing and rejected sinners to endure 1000 years of tribulation, before being sent to hell. So, there was no promise of salvation by death bed conversion, because you never knew when the rapture was going to happen, but the preacher kept telling us "Any day now!"

I can't even begin to relay the constant fear, and occasional terror, I would experience to find myself alone in the house, not knowing if I had been left behind or not. I was constantly being blindsided by my parents' irrational disapproval and our pastors unending list of sins, that could get your banned from heaven, and front row seat in hell. Even though I was only around eight years old, I wasn't sure if I was good enough for heaven, and at every turn I was reminded of how unworthy I was, what a wretched sinner I was.

On those occasion, when I was alone and scared, I would get on the phone and call the pastor's house, If someone answered, I would just hang up and know I was safe, for the time being. If no one answered at my pastor's house, I'd call a deacon's house, and then another...and another.....I had an emergency list.

Fear is a wicked and debilitating tool. It's not cute, or funny, nor in their best interest to terrify children into religious submission. It's very destructive. Fear is a construct used to control and manipulate the living, not the dead. Once they're dead, what harm can they do? What sin can they commit? What would be the purpose of punishment with no rehabilitation? Hell makes no sense.

On the other hand, one who's lost in the maze their own mind, tormented and trapped by their own fear or guilt, is, in my opinion experiencing hell.

Is there another, real hell, waiting for living? Maybe.

The Tibetan Monks believe that before one's next incarnation, they must first battle and defeat their own demons in hell. It is said that Jesus went to hell and battled demons, after the crucifixion. And, while he was living, he said that "What we bind on earth, we bind in heaven." Does that mean there will be unbound demons in heaven or that we have to go to hell first, to battle what we've left unbound, before we can enter the pearly gates or reincarnate for another dip in the ocean of life?

Originally posted by micmerci

Or is it possible that we just do not like to think that we can be eternally punished for rejecting God?

And at the same time we can experience eternal pleasure for accepting that same God?

The question contains the answer...

Hell, as a locum designed for eternal punishment, is a ridiculous idea...given the belief by most christians that God, is a 'loving' God...relegating 'souls' to eternal torment is NOT contained within the precepts of a 'loving' God...who loves ALL his/her children equally as himself/herself...as progeny of himself/herself...what is left is for all 'children' to learn in thier own time...to make thier way back to the godhead, for all the little flames to reunite with the grand conflagration...

...any 'other' story, has the stamp of man on it...

A99

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Akragon

 

"HELL does not exist" is a very definitive statement. Can you provide a source of proof for this conclusion? The doctrine of heaven comes from the same source as the doctrine of hell as far as I remember

Hell is a loose translation of the word Gehenna.... which was a physical place outside the walls of Jerusalam... A litteral garbage dump where bodies of people who could not afford a proper burial were thrown... They used sulfer (brimstone) to destroy the material in the area which burned continuiously day and night... which is where they got the idea of "Hell" being a place of eternal torture and firey torment.

Ever read this? The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man:

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” (Luke 16:19-31 NIV)

So you're saying that Jesus was confused about the whole "garbage dump" bit, as well?

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable for reincarnation. The rich man represents those in power, Lazarus represents the poor. After Lazarus dies he is taken to the bosom of Abraham while the rich man is put in Lazarus' place. This represents karma, whatever you do in one life is carried over into the next.

How can the rich man see Abraham and Lazarus while he is in Hades. Hell is supposed to be cut off from heaven, isn't it? Jesus' meaning behind having Abraham as the central figure while in Hades is that Abraham is Satan and all Abrahamic religions control a huge portion of the population on Earth, or Hades in this case.

Lazarus switching roles with the rich man now means he is the corrupt one while the rich man is the humble one, him being at Abraham's bosom represents Abrahamic religion being the supplier of these people's power. Their fear based doctrine scares children into converting and rejecting anything outside of their comfort bubble, which makes them more manipulable , which in turn causes today's problems.

Hell and Satan do exist, it's here on Earth and he lives within mans ego.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

Yes, congratulations on posting a definition that repeats exactly what I said, but where in that definition does it say anything about the people, places and events needing to be fictional?

"allegory" doesn't exactly imply an accurate account. It is meant to impart a lesson, not a historical event.

Check your dictionary -- "allegory" doesn't mean fiction, it makes no judgement as to the accuracy of what is being discussed.

Jesus described the place that the rich man was in terms that are commonly used to describe Hell, so was he confused, too? Or is Akragon just barking up the wrong tree again?

Probably because in those times, superstition was spread like wildfire by people too stupid to employ logic.

So you think that Jesus is stupid?

reply to post by Akragon

Pain is purely phyiscal... it is experienced when the physical body goes through a trama of some sort

tell us that the next time you get a broken heart. physical pain can be over come by ones mind to certain degrees but the pain of the soul and spirit no one can endure. Mental anguish causes more suicides than banging ones thumb with a hammer.

You better rethink your understanding of pain before you try and disprove that torments and tortures are just physical.

I agree that religions use fear as a control mechanism and truth being what it is, you cannot get the whole truth in organized religion. If a member believes all the preacher teaches he has truth but he also has the lies the preacher is teaching, and his soul could end up in hell.
Truth is some preachers do not believe in hell, they say how could a loving God allow souls to suffer eternally in hell. Truth is He could not and this is the reason the Father could not answer Christ prayer and allow the cup of Calvary to pass by him.

We are composed of three parts we have a physical body we have a spirit and we also have a soul. Logic tells us the physical body cannot be sent to hell but our spirit and soul can.

Truth is the eternal torment of hell has been done away with through Christ at Calvary . The catholic church understood this but they have twisted the truth so as to make a little profit thereby. They have a doctrine known as purgatory and it teaches the sinner goes there to pay for their sins they have committed in this life. They also teach that a loved one can pay for a mass to be performed by the priest which will reduce the time spent in purgatory. Follow the money. They use the fear of hell to make a little profit thereby.
They also sell indulgences. What is that you say. If a person wants he can buy forgiveness for sin before he commits it. What a racket and some people believe it!

I remember a true story that someone went to the priest and bought indulgence to commit a specific fraud. Now the same person committed the fraud against the same church that sold him the indulgences. It ended up in court which decided the church had forgiven the crime previously and could not be tried in a court of law, also the government had no authority over the church because of the separation of powers. A very wise judge dismissed the case.

Truth is we do not need to fear anything if we will consider James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Truth is that Christ has dealt with the eternal damnation of hell and this would need a thread all by its self.

Br Ben

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Did you not know that God/Jesus DOES take you at your worst? He put His hand on me when I was a confident atheist. I'm a better person than I was as an atheist, and a lot of folks thought I was a nice person for an atheist. Do not be put off by Christians, they have their own path to follow, and you have yours.

Probably overreacting here, but I'm slightly miffed by this one. Sure, your life may have turned out for the better, but what on earth does "nice for an atheist" mean? I understand that you feel spiritually transformed, I used to think I felt the same a few years ago... but really? Your language seems to is imply that Christians are generally better people, not that the converse is true at all, but surely you can understand why people might be "put off" by you?

reply to post by adjensen

Check your dictionary -- "allegory" doesn't mean fiction, it makes no judgement as to the accuracy of what is being discussed.

Russell's teapot again. I'm getting tired of playing this game with people who are incapable of simple logic.

So you think that Jesus is stupid?

Are you dense? You have read my posts. You know my stance. Don't play stupid with me.

Communion = cannibalism

keeps doing it and it's all hell