A logical problem witih "Hell"

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

you know that in God's eyes we are ALL unworthy.

Some of my consternation comes from that. No parent should ever view their child as unworthy of their love or presence.

Imagine that you are the parent of whatever is present. That this (whatever is appearing presently) is your first and only child. Would you love it or would you deny it? Would you cut it up into past and future and prefer another?

God has saved us.
God is saving us.
God will save us.

Saved!

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
God has saved us.
God is saving us.
God will save us.

Saved!

You never needed saving. And what is it that you believe you have to be saved from exactly?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

You believe you are 'becoming'. You have forgotten that you are already 'being'.
If you believe you are a 'work in progress' then you do not feel complete. You are seeking to complete yourself in time.
God is 'timeless' being - this is wholeness, right here and right now.

Awake from the dream of separation:
youtu.be...

Being is seeking for being, it is a game of hide and seek.

edit on 22-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Yes, I believe I am becoming, but only by the power of God, who has saved, is saving, and will save me, you, everybody. However, I do not "feel" complete, but I wait on God, Who will complete me in His good time. There is no "complete yourself" to it.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
God has saved us.
God is saving us.
God will save us.

Saved!

You never needed saving. And what is it that you believe you have to be saved from exactly?

God saves us from our sins, and more than that, He saves us from our sin natures, by transforming us. It is the hope of glory. Where are you coming from??

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

You believe you are 'becoming'. You have forgotten that you are already 'being'.
If you believe you are a 'work in progress' then you do not feel complete. You are seeking to complete yourself in time.
God is 'timeless' being - this is wholeness, right here and right now.

Awake from the dream of separation:
youtu.be...

Being is seeking for being, it is a game of hide and seek.

edit on 22-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Yes, I believe I am becoming, but only by the power of God, who has saved, is saving, and will save me, you, everybody. However, I do not "feel" complete, but I wait on God, Who will complete me in His good time. There is no "complete yourself" to it.

Becoming is a never ending story, a story in time.
Are you a story which is not complete?
Or are you here and now whole.

Are you looking for your final resting place?

If you do not feel complete, it is because there is a sense of lack.
Is there really anything lacking? Because if you feel lack you will appear needy and greedy.
Cure the lack by checking, Is there really anything lacking? www.youtube.com...

Maybe 'lack' is just a belief that has not been investigated.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

God has saved us.
God is saving us.
God will save us.

Saved!

He created the evils that prompted the necessity to save us, knowing the necessity would arise and knowing every second of pain and suffering that would ensue as a result. He even created the creature that supposedly rules over the less scrupulous of his miracles, the creature that is given credit for all the evils that came from "God"s hand, a creature that behaves entirely according to its design and is hated for it. Why would "God" do that? Did he not know what would happen, or did he intend for it to happen?

He is still allowing these evils to occur every day, despite his supposed benevolence. He holds his own flawed design against us, swearing to destroy us unless we give him the souls he gave us, unless we dedicate our entire existence to spreading rumors of his glory and mercy. Such irony.

He is ready to destroy any independent thinkers - those who have diverged from the prescribed path, were designed to do so. He created it, foresaw it, allowed it. And even as he thought of them, he crafted a seat in hell for them, unwilling to change their course or prove his good will.

Saved? No. Toyed with. That's all this is. A game of thrones.

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by boymonkey74

 

Not trying to push any belief system on you- just want to inform- the scriptures say that there is no rememberance of those who did not make it in.

What if nobody makes it in, you are assuming heaven is a fact, all it is is religious dogma.
You cannot prove anything.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

He created the evils that prompted the necessity to save us, knowing the necessity would arise and knowing every second of pain and suffering that would ensue as a result. He even created the creature that supposedly rules over the less scrupulous of his miracles, the creature that is given credit for all the evils that came from "God"s hand, a creature that behaves entirely according to its design and is hated for it. Why would "God" do that? Did he not know what would happen, or did he intend for it to happen?

He is still allowing these evils to occur every day, despite his supposed benevolence. He holds his own flawed design against us, swearing to destroy us unless we give him the souls he gave us, unless we dedicate our entire existence to spreading rumors of his glory and mercy. Such irony.

He is ready to destroy any independent thinkers - those who have diverged from the prescribed path, were designed to do so. He created it, foresaw it, allowed it. And even as he thought of them, he crafted a seat in hell for them, unwilling to change their course or prove his good will.

Saved? No. Toyed with. That's all this is. A game of thrones.

"He created the evils..." Yes, you are correct to a degree, but only to a degree. God put us in this world and planted the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, as teaching tools and an arena to learn. Were you not ever a child, and had to endure all sorts of restrictions and parental control until you grew up? It's the same with God. His Will seems evil and grievous to us in the here-and-now, but if we learn the lessons well, and get past our carnal selves, we will in time become, not servants, not slaves, not red-headed step-children, but Sons - Sons of God. You need to stop grousing and cooperate with God in this matter.

Originally posted by Akragon
Hell is described by most "religionists" as a place of eternal torment and torture... A place you will go after you die if you don't accept what these people believe and convert immediately...

Pope John Paul II - Heaven, Hell, Purgatory

Actually, Pope John Paul II stated that heaven, hell, and purgatory are 'states of being' and not actual places. This makes sense. Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are things you carry within you ... and that goes totally with scripture that says 'the kingdom of god is within'.

Makes sense to me.

When you 'die' (change from a physical form to an etherial one) ... you don't have a physical body to enjoy physical things with and you don't have a physical body to feel physical pain with. It has to be all spiritual joy or spiritual anguish when you are in spiritual form.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Some days I totally agree with this ... (especially those days that my autoimmune disease is really acting up .. and the days that, on TV, I see so much suffering by innocent people). Other days I can see some good that comes from the evil that is rampant on this planet. It's all confusing.

But I guess the bottom line is that this is God's board game and we are being forced to play it .. even though we don't know the rules and we don't know the goal of the game and the dice are loaded ... it's still his game and we are slaves and are stuck playing it. He's in charge ... nothing we can do about it.

ETA - ATS Thread - Is God a Dead Beat Dad?
Some days I wonder .... other days I don't.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

It's all confusing.

When god is eliminated from your beliefs, it is no longer confusing.

reply to post by Toadmund


When we use language to communicate to each other, whether it be written or spoken, we take an idea and fit it inside a box, because that's how we define it. We give it parameters, according to how we understand it. But the problem with that is that our understanding is not complete. Ideas must evolve to match our understanding of the world. And whenever we put our ideas in a box, it cannot evolve.

Our definitions and understanding and ideas of "God" have transformed, but all throughout the process, those transformations have never severed the chains binding our thoughts to the traditional theme, binding our spiritual health to the box, containing us. And because of that, our understanding has failed to evolve sufficiently. Unless we break those chains and escape that box, unless we learn to walk away from tradition, our understanding will never mature.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short


"He created the evils..." Yes, you are correct to a degree, but only to a degree. God put us in this world and planted the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, as teaching tools and an arena to learn. Were you not ever a child, and had to endure all sorts of restrictions and parental control until you grew up? It's the same with God. His Will seems evil and grievous to us in the here-and-now, but if we learn the lessons well, and get past our carnal selves, we will in time become, not servants, not slaves, not red-headed step-children, but Sons - Sons of God. You need to stop grousing and cooperate with God in this matter.

So, let me get this straight, god is perfect.
Therefore he must be playing a perfect mind game.
Why would he, in his perfection, create us imperfect and because of that, send most of us to hell and some of us to heaven?
If we were created perfect through his devine perfection, why are we faulty? Is it so he can have a laugh as peoples souls burn forever, and ever, for eternity?
"HEH, I will create you imperfect, create a devil to make a snake convince Adam and Eve to eat a bad apple, so that everything goes to ****?"

Face it, ancient people invented god to obtain easy answers to questions they cannot answer.
And when things go bad, it was our fault (in our god created imperfection) for someone eating an apple.

The things in the world that happen, good and bad has been all tailored to fit a god any way possible, if a round peg will not fit a square hole you shave it down until it fits.
We are the square hole and god is the round peg.

All hail Thor!

From him, lightning and thunderous booms were born of his mighty hammer!
All hail Thor!

reply to post by Toadmund


I can only hope (given your lack of understanding) you had missed most of my posts on this thread, as I was trying to take the burden of "Hell" off of people's minds. You have stumbled over the Truth, dusted yourself off, and proceeded on your way as if nothing had been said.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Oh, my mistake, we burn until resurrected, got it.
What evidence is there that Jesus was resurrected? He was not there when they checked?

According to what you say, even if we do not believe Jesus was the son of a god, we will not go to hell, or is that just the sinful followers of Jesus that will not?
So what is it, nobody goes to hell, or some of us do?

Mistake two, I went back to your previous posts, my post got a bit hellish, but not because of you, I was merely responding to your post according to the mainstream belief that unbelievers will BURN!

(given your lack of understanding)

I don't understand, what is it that I don't understand, what you write, or the truth according to your beliefs?
If it's what you write, OK I misquoted you.
If it's your beliefs, I understand different, and in time you may too.

Originally posted by Akragon
Hell is described by most "religionists" as a place of eternal torment and torture... A place you will go after you die if you don't accept what these people believe and convert immediately...

Of course this ridiculous idea is nothing more then a fear tactic used to scare people into conversion... but there is a logical problem with the idea of Hell...

IF one is sent to "Hell" for said "eternal torture and torment"... That person would have to be alive to experience said firey torment...

Pain is purely phyiscal... it is experienced when the physical body goes through a trama of some sort

In order to experience pain, said person needs a few things...

1. A brain...

2. A spinal cord...

3. Nerve endings

Without which pain can not be experienced...

When one passes beyond this life... the body remains in the physical world and left to decay and return to the dust from which we're made...

Thus the concept of Hell being a place of pain and anguish is nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion as i've stated previously... designed specifically to pray on the natural instinct of all creatures to fear pain...

IF you slap a dog he will naturally grow to fear you... because it is ingrained into all life that experiences pain to fear it...

Churches and religious denominations throughout history have prayed on peoples fears... Fear of loosing your soul, fear of eternal torture if you don't follow what they tell you to believe.

But i tell you... Fear not my friends... There is no pain beyond this life...

The physical world is only a stepping stone...

if there is no perception after death then for all practical purpose there is no afterlife.
And if there has to be an afterlife then there has to be some kind of perception after death.
.
And when you feel pain who actually feels it? Brain? Are you your brain?
.
Pain is a deprivation or deviation from a comfortable zone.
If i can see and suddenly lose sight and can no longer see then it will pain me, its not physical but still real and worst.
Now imagine loosing all 5 senses at death especially if i am attached to sensory stimulation to a level much higher than drug addiction(think withdrawal)
on the other hand if i long for something and get it, i feel pleasure. Now if i long to meet God then i'l get pleasure when i die and go back to Him.
So if sensational deprivation is more than the longing to meet God it would be hell and Heaven the other way.

Laz answers Toadmund [Toadmund's statements in quotes]:

"Oh, my mistake, we burn until resurrected, got it." No, only the wicked who are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

"What evidence is there that Jesus was resurrected?" Check out the book, "Who Rolled the Stone?"

"He was not there when they checked?" He was probably nearby, if it's Jesus you are talking about.

"According to what you say, even if we do not believe Jesus was the son of a god, we will not go to hell, or is that just the sinful followers of Jesus that will not?" You still seem not to have read my posts. No one goes to Hell, some only go to the Lake of Fire. There is no "Hell."

"So what is it, nobody goes to hell, or some of us do?" Nobody goes to Hell. Be careful here, as I am NOT saying we will not answer for our wrongdoing. I am saying that there is a sort of amnesty, based on the principles of the Jubilee Year. God's ultimate aim is to make us fit for His Kingdom, not to punish us to the uttermost, for every last, little sin.

"Mistake two, I went back to your previous posts, my post got a bit hellish, but not because of you, I was merely responding to your post according to the mainstream belief that unbelievers will BURN!

(given your lack of understanding)

I don't understand, what is it that I don't understand, what you write, or the truth according to your beliefs?
If it's what you write, OK I misquoted you.
If it's your beliefs, I understand different, and in time you may too."

So, you took the trouble to go back and read those previous posts. Well, that answers my "Given your lack of understanding..." comment. You have it covered it seems, STILL not apparently understanding what I wrote, or the truth behind it. I am just amazed at how far from orthodox Christianity people can get, and still believe in Hell, as you seem to. Has the light come on, even a little bit?

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by boymonkey74

 

Not trying to push any belief system on you- just want to inform- the scriptures say that there is no rememberance of those who did not make it in.

Would this be sort of a postmortem lobotomy? The following verse states no knowledge ie thoughts in the grave.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The grave (hell) is where we all go at death until the resurrection at the last trump.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


Welcome to ATS my friend... Congrats on your first star, and thank you for reading my thread...

Don't forget Part II