A logical problem witih "Hell"

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It goes both ways, you need to move more toward the gray area, that's where the truth is. If you continue to completely discredit the bible then you will continue to not get it. The bible holds a wealth of truth and knowledge, you just have to know where to find it and how to pick out the lies. Just some friendly advice.

I cannot help those who take the Bible literally. The moment you take it literally, your looking glass becomes opaque and all you see is what you imagine to be there. That is the point at which I declare the Bible to be false, because what you see IS false.

Otherwise, I would entirely agree. When it is universally acknowledged that the Bible is good for purely allegorical lessons, and nothing more, then I will concur. Because the difference between the Bible and science, contrary to your statement, is that I can pick up a rock and drop it and use scientific principles to calculate that rock's weight and speed from the hole it leaves in the ground. Bible relies purely on, "I believe it is real, so it is real."

A world that operates on such whimsical fancies is precarious in even the best of days. I believe, therefore it is. What a ridiculous notion.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Don't let those who take it literally ruin your chance to actually study the bible and learn from it. Just because one particular group refuses to budge doesn't mean you have to do the same in spite of them. If you actually read the bible with an open and logical mind and actually READ it, the rest will come naturally.

Like you said in a particular post before, just because the stew is spoiled doesn't mean there isn't any good stew somewhere (something along those lines anyways). Apply that logic to the bible, just because a certain group(s) has distorted the story doesn't mean there isn't any truth to be found in it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


It's good to know SOMEONE reads my posts. I will take it into consideration. I like to make sure of my sources before I wade in.

Originally posted by Akragon
Hell is described by most "religionists" as a place of eternal torment and torture... A place you will go after you die if you don't accept what these people believe and convert immediately...

Of course this ridiculous idea is nothing more then a fear tactic used to scare people into conversion... but there is a logical problem with the idea of Hell...

IF one is sent to "Hell" for said "eternal torture and torment"... That person would have to be alive to experience said firey torment...

Pain is purely phyiscal... it is experienced when the physical body goes through a trama of some sort

Eternal torture and torment isn't after you die, it is while living.
The torment and torture is not physical, it is mental.

Are you not tortured and tormented by thoughts? Can you ever truly relax or get any peace? The speaking mind will not allow you any peace and quiet, it is incessant.
When trying to sleep, it is there keeping you awake. It causes fear and anxiety in the body.
Most humans are in a living hell because the speaking mind will not leave them alone.

When the mind goes silent, and the world is seen without the speaking mind, the kingdom is revealed.

Eternal torture and torment isn't after you die, it is while living.
The torment and torture is not physical, it is mental.

Are you not tortured and tormented by thoughts? Can you ever truly relax or get any peace? The speaking mind will not allow you any peace and quiet, it is incessant.
When trying to sleep, it is there keeping you awake. It causes fear and anxiety in the body.
Most humans are in a living hell because the speaking mind will not leave them alone.

When the mind goes silent, and the world is seen without the speaking mind, the kingdom is revealed.

From what I have read what we experience on earth is not hell. That is your opinion Hell seems to be a real place that awaits all unbelievers in Christ. It was originally made for Satan and his angels not the SOULS of men.

I guess we will just have to wait and die to find out if it is real or not.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

I cannot help those who take the Bible literally. The moment you take it literally, your looking glass becomes opaque and all you see is what you imagine to be there. That is the point at which I declare the Bible to be false, because what you see IS false.

Otherwise, I would entirely agree. When it is universally acknowledged that the Bible is good for purely allegorical lessons, and nothing more, then I will concur. Because the difference between the Bible and science, contrary to your statement, is that I can pick up a rock and drop it and use scientific principles to calculate that rock's weight and speed from the hole it leaves in the ground. Bible relies purely on, "I believe it is real, so it is real."

Actually if you take it literally your looking glass is clearer than trying to look at it as an allegory. an allegory would be opaque and colored not the other way around.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


Eh, not really. An allegory enables you to take elements out and replace them with whatever gives you the most meaningful lesson, instead of being forced to take it at face value. And honestly, looking at this particular story as an allegory makes much more sense to me. The only way you can say it's a true story is by ASSUMING it is true, since you have nothing but the word of a dusty book to depend on. If assumption makes you wiser than me, then I'll gladly claim the title of fool.

I don't understand why people find it easier to believe in a fantasy tale than think that it might just be metaphor. And I'm told I have a hard time separating fantasy and reality...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

Eh, not really. An allegory enables you to take elements out and replace them with whatever gives you the most meaningful lesson, instead of being forced to take it at face value. And honestly, looking at this particular story as an allegory makes much more sense to me.

I don't understand why people find it easier to believe in a fantasy tale than think that it might just be metaphor. And I'm told I have a hard time separating fantasy and reality...

It enables you to create something that is not in the text. would you do that with Tolstoy, or Shakespeare?

I think not.

and as far as fantasy tales that people believe have you not read about people taking star wars force teachings of yoda as a religion. marquee.blogs.cnn.com...

my point is you have to take it literally first then after studying and reading it in its context you can then make a conclusion based on internal facts and evidences if it is a allegory or a metaphor (btw, these two are different). to approach the Bible with the the thinking it is ALL allegorical or metaphorical is totally illogical for someone professing to be using true logic.

Originally posted by ChesterJohn

Eternal torture and torment isn't after you die, it is while living.
The torment and torture is not physical, it is mental.

Are you not tortured and tormented by thoughts? Can you ever truly relax or get any peace? The speaking mind will not allow you any peace and quiet, it is incessant.
When trying to sleep, it is there keeping you awake. It causes fear and anxiety in the body.
Most humans are in a living hell because the speaking mind will not leave them alone.

When the mind goes silent, and the world is seen without the speaking mind, the kingdom is revealed.

From what I have read what we experience on earth is not hell. That is your opinion Hell seems to be a real place that awaits all unbelievers in Christ. It was originally made for Satan and his angels not the SOULS of men.

I guess we will just have to wait and die to find out if it is real or not.

If you are a believer in Christ, surely you know that life is everlasting (eternal life).
Where does death come into it?

I believe our world is of infinite undiscovery, we will never know it all and that comforts me.
I believe both hell and heaven would become insanely boring.

If there could be eternal punishment, the next thing would always be worst than the last thing.
If there is eternal bliss in heaven, is the less blissful equivalent to bad?

If I could live eternally, I'd want to be eternal in this life.

reply to post by akushla99

what is left is for all 'children' to learn in thier own time...

Very true. Even Satan has to learn, not to become good, but rather to stop putting up a fight.

reply to post by ChesterJohn

It enables you to create something that is not in the text. would you do that with Tolstoy, or Shakespeare?

Shakespeare does not push plausibility to the point of suspending your disbelief in every aspect of reality with which you are most familiar. He makes it clear that they are only stories for entertainment purposes. We do not read the work of Shakespeare as thought he's a historian. We read them as though he's a playwright and a poet, which he was.

and as far as fantasy tales that people believe have you not read about people taking star wars force teachings of yoda as a religion.

I think you have not been reading my posts carefully. I have already said I don't have a problem with extracting useful lessons from such stories. My problem lies in the inability to separate allegory from historical accounts. If those people walk around waving their hands at cars and stuff trying to get them to fly using their mind, that's where I have a problem. If they build lightsabers and waste all their money and effort trying to get that humming beam of destruction to appear as it did in the movies, spending all of their lives blowing smoke up the dress of reality, that's where I have to express my distaste for such idiocy. Clearly, they enjoy the science fictional realm much more than they enjoy the real world, if they are that desperate.

to approach the Bible with the the thinking it is ALL allegorical or metaphorical is totally illogical for someone professing to be using true logic.

If you take some parts of it literally, you must take all of it literally. And the moment you begin to take it literally, there is no use for finding themetaphor, because in your mind, there IS no metaphor. You are using logic as an excuse to believe in the Bible, and quite frankly, the Bible cannot be said to be logical. I have dozens of arguments supporting this assertion, and I don['t feel like repeating them every time I come across a new idiot who doesn't see th necessity to read my history of posts on the subject of Christianity. In additiona, I recommend that you research the works of Thomas Paine, because I'm done with this discussion with you. I cannot repeat myself forever, and if the obvious isn't obvious to you, then I cannot help you. End of story. Good day sir.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


the multiple quotes are beginning to expand beyond any plausible use.

If you extract from the Bible what you deem to be allegorical applications for your life, then those applications are up to personal interpretation or a form of subjective application. Meaning you are your own god to decide what you want it to say, mean and what application it is for you. the other guy does the same and he get his own type of application that suits his needs.

So if the Bible does say "thou shall not kill" (Hebrew word for kill means homicide) does that mean that we are to take it literal or allegorical?

If we take it literal then it is applicable to control ourselves not to violate that command and God has ordained Governments to enforce that law. The literal interpretation is the right application.

So as you said if we take one part literal then the whole must be taken literal.

What needs to be done is study of the text and its surrounding context. You must start out taking it literal and confirm it as such by its surrounding context. If the context allows and supports the literal then it is to be taken literal.

But if during your study you discover that the context shows it to be a metaphor or allegory then you can still take it as a literal application that is given in a different form of literature or speech type.

there are five types of literature found in the Bible, 1) Narratives, Poetry, Prophecy, Epistles and Proverbs. Each of these must be studied out in context and interpreted logically.

For example: Proverbs 5:15 ¶ Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.

We read this verse literally and we can see in its literal stand alone interpretation would literally mean "drink water from your own well". (stand alone is the verse by itself with not surrounding verses to give the context.)

I heard a man once say during a conference on "Urine Therapy" say that the Bible supports Urine Therapy then he quoted this verse to support that one should drink their own urine as a means of homeopathic healing.

But of course the verse is devoid of its context. (He removed it from the context and made it allegorical, and then made an application). This is exactly what you promoted in the post above about coming to the text of the Bible as allegorical without even studying it out to be sure it was allegorical to begin with.

Let's look at the context of the verse this man quoted, and that we, already in its stand alone literal context interpreted to mean "drink from your own well".

At this point you will need to read the whole chapter.

Proverbs 5:1 ¶ My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:
9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel:
10 Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger;
11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,
12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!
14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.
15 ¶ Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.
16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.
17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.
18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.
22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.
16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.
17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.
18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.
22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.

As we read the context or surrounding verses, we can get a basic understanding of this verse and see that it has to do with Fornication and Adultery. We soon see that verse 15 is a metaphorical figure of speech because the text surrounding the verse gave us information the stand alone verse did not.

When we took the verse alone it meant "drink water from thy own well." But when we take it with its context we learn that it was telling us not to have sex with any woman not our wife. For women it would mean not to have sex with anyone not her husband. This then shows that verse 15 meant something more than just drinking water from thy own well. Now we see that the cistern is the wife and it is his own and not to seek satisfaction from another woman or another cistern.

So the lesson is take the verse literally and you never go wrong. Take them in context to determine what type of literature and figure of speech it is. Then find the Literal application the text supports.

Simple once you know how.

reply to post by ChesterJohn

When we took the verse alone it meant "drink water from thy own well." But when we take it with its context we learn that it was telling us not to have sex with any woman not our wife. For women it would mean not to have sex with anyone not her husband. This then shows that verse 15 meant something more than just drinking water from thy own well. Now we see that the cistern is the wife and it is his own and not to seek satisfaction form another woman or another cistern.

So the lesson is take the verse literally and you never go wrong. Take them in context to determine what type of literature and figure of speech it is. Then find the Literal application the text supports.

>admits that the verses are not meant literally
>advises that they be read literally

Dude, you're a genius! But in all seriousness, the more you read literally, the more you forget they are metaphors. As can be seen in this thread, the majority of humans are just stupid enough to do that, especially when they desperately want to believe that this hellhole isn't all there is to life.

Once again, you must take into account the psychological condition of the person reading the Bible. If you, personally, take the Bible literally, then this entire conversation we just had is pointless because you will have proven that it does not work. Now see, there's an 'if - then' statement. If there is this, then that must also follow. It's a form of logic. Good ol' logic...

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I have dozens of arguments supporting this assertion, and I don['t feel like repeating them every time I come across a new idiot who doesn't see th necessity to read my history of posts on the subject of Christianity.

not once have I called you or referred to you in any way that was disrespectful to your as a person.

So why must you resort to such petty disrespect and name calling?

name calling is a violation of the TOA to post here. Stick to attacking the message not the Messenger.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


I was generalizing. I didn't call you an idiot, I was talking about the dozens of people I converse with every day who essentially use circular logic to tell me that I'm an ignorant moron.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Now the next thing you could do before trying to argue with Christians about any one of their doctrine is first study out the subject and in your OP it is obvious that you hadn't.

Find all the verses in their Bible on hell. Use only one version as not to confuse. I use the AV. Look at each verse in its stand alone position and interpret it in your own words. then go back in its context and determine the interpretation in its context.

Most of the literature types where hell is found are Narratives. But these narratives also have parables and prophecies interwoven. So then you will need to find where they begin and stop. In some of the above arguments of Luke 16 the last mention of parable was in chapter 15. An understanding of the English Prose and Punctuations will help determine where the parable stopped and a narrative begins again.

Have fun as I do but try not to resort to calling people idiots or other names and or deride their character if they don't agree with you. stay patient.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


whether generalizing or singularization it is still name calling.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Akragon

 

"HELL does not exist" is a very definitive statement. Can you provide a source of proof for this conclusion? The doctrine of heaven comes from the same source as the doctrine of hell as far as I remember

Hell is a loose translation of the word Gehenna.... which was a physical place outside the walls of Jerusalam... A litteral garbage dump where bodies of people who could not afford a proper burial were thrown... They used sulfer (brimstone) to destroy the material in the area which burned continuiously day and night... which is where they got the idea of "Hell" being a place of eternal torture and firey torment.

Ever read this? The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man:

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” (Luke 16:19-31 NIV)

So you're saying that Jesus was confused about the whole "garbage dump" bit, as well?

Of course i've read it... hundreds of times...

That story was clearly an embelishment of what actually happened... considering Luke was the author... who was a follower of Paul...

the story of Lazarus is mentioned in two books... In john the real story is completely different from what Luke tells us... John actually knew Jesus... Luke did not...

The information Luke had came from another document... and its very obvious his version of the story of Lazarus was of his own creation...

Originally posted by ChesterJohn

From what I have read what we experience on earth is not hell. That is your opinion Hell seems to be a real place that awaits all unbelievers in Christ. It was originally made for Satan and his angels not the SOULS of men.

I guess we will just have to wait and die to find out if it is real or not.

"Hell" only seems to be a real place. Recheck your sources and see of nearly all them are FICTION.

What was made for Satan and his fallen angels is the Lake of Fire, again, recheck your sources.

While you're at it, check the REAL meaning of "Hell" in your Bible. In almost all cases, you will find that it means "the grave." "Hell" comes from pagan sources, both the name (Scandinavian "Hel") and the concept (Greek Hades, Latin Inferno).

Be a good Berean.