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Are we really living in a black hole? A trip into the theory of multi-verses.

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posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 11:50 AM
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Afternoon ATS. What I am posting here is an exploration into the possibility of our universe existing within a black hole. As a disclaimer, I am not a Physicist, although I do have a bachelor of Science degree. The following is not a declaration of what actually is, but is rather an exploration of what could be. I have had to cut this post short, but I plan on continuing this thread in multiple posts to come. So if interest is there, I may continue to delve deeper into this theory. Many of you have probably already heard or know about this theory, but my guess is that many have not.

What I would like from you.

I would like you to post subjects that relate to this, or that may tie into this theory, so I can include them to form a comprehensive paper on this subject.

Happy reading!

Thanks,
xmad



For centuries man has tried to explain the world and universe in which we live. Theories through time have gone from the mundane, to the extreme, as more information, physics, and technology has advanced. Theory has gone from pure observational theory, to more advanced physics and mathematical theory, and has had many stages in between. Some of the earliest quantitative theories based on the ancient Greek philosophers were developed around the geocentric model, where the Earth was the center of the universe, and have evolved to what we now know, that the Universe is much larger and much more mysterious than we could have ever imagined. Jump ahead a few centuries and we then have the Copernicus heliocentric model, and then the Newtonian models. My oh my have times, and models, changed over the years.

To this end, of an ever changing model of the Universe, I present a new model of the Universe, for some critical thought and thinking by the masses here at ATS. By no means do I claim to have a full GUT or even a beginning of a model for what I am about to present here. But what I do have is a simple case of curiosity; curiosity that has inevitably lead to the forward progression of thought, science, and learning.

I implore you to open your mind to new possibilities, thoughts, and open thinking when approaching this subject. Remember that at one point in our history, those who even suggested that the geocentric model was incorrect, were killed for this thinking. It was only after decades of open thought that new thinking could permeate the minds of those that dissented against new ideas.

This new theory of the Universe in which we live, is that we are actually living within a massive black hole itself. The universe, our universe, is either in a black hole, or falling into a black hole.
Now, firstly we should explore what a black hole is, and new information and theories surrounding black holes and what their true nature is. Recently physicists at Indiana University have presented new mathematical models of the spiraling motion of matter falling into a black hole. The math has now shown that a singularity, as previous thought, may actually not be there at all, and instead, it is a it is an Einstein-Rosen bridge; a wormhole.

So why the move away from the “Singularity” theory?

Essentially, in Einstein’s model, singularities take up no space, are infinitely dense, and are infinitely hot; a hotly contested and outlandish idea that many scientists find hard to accept. Even Stephen Hawking has come to this conclusion, after working with quantum gravity theory, and has subsequently lost a bet he held with fellow physicist John Preskill (He paid his debt by giving John a baseball encyclopedia).

So with many scientists jumping off of the singularity bandwagon, the question must now be asked; what is inside of a black hole?



Wormholes are quickly becoming the new contender. The theory states that rather than our Universe starting in a big bang singularity, which has been hotly contested, it rather started from the outpouring from a White Hole. The problem with the Big bang Singularity idea is that scientists have no way of determining how the singularity came together in the first place. However wormholes could explain not only this problem of the Black Hole Singularity, but also the Big Bang Singularity as well. Wormholes may also explain the gamma ray bursts from black holes as well. Gamma ray bursts occur at the very fringes of the universe, and have largely been explained away as supernovae but the fact remains that there is no exact source known to man, and they still largely remain a mystery.



Scientists are now exploring that idea that the Gamma ray bursts are actually discharges from alternate universes. Matter that may be escaping into our universe through supermassive black holes, aka wormholes, at the heart of galaxies near the edges of our universe; though this is still not exact science. One way physicists are attempting to test this theory, is by using the rotation of our universe. If a black hole is a rotating black hole, and our universe was born of a similar rotating black hole, then our universe should have inherited the rotation of the parent object’s rotation. If experiments show that our universe appears to rotate in a preferred direction, it would further support this idea.



Another aspect leading to this conclusion is the shape, size, and temperature of our Universe. There has been data collected on the light from the very early universe, and it shows that the just after the big bang, the universe held a very uniform temperature throughout. This suggests that the objects on either side of the universe were once very close to each other and came to equilibrium. But again the actual observations don’t match predictions, because the objects on opposite sides of the universe are so far apart that the time it would take to travel between them at the speed of light supersedes the age of the universe.

How did scientists explain this?

The inflation theory.

The inflation theory says that shortly after the Big Bang, the universe experienced a rapid expansion spurt that took the size from that of an atom, to the size of the universe, in a fraction of a second. The universe therefore seems flat to us because the sphere we’re on is extremely large from our viewpoint. Kind of the way the earth seems flat when you are standing on a street corner. However, assuming inflation is real; astronomers have always had problems explaining what caused it. This is where wormholes come in.

Some theories of inflation have started exploring the event that may have caused it as being “Exotic Matter”. Exotic matter is a theoretical material that is repelled by gravity, rather than attracted by gravity. Mathematics suggests that this material may have been formed when some of the first massive stars collapsed and became wormholes.

I had to stop here, but I plan on continuing to delve deeper into the following topics as part of this.

So, if we live inside a black hole, you may be thinking, “Well, does that mean there are other universes in our own black holes?”

The answer put simply, is yes. Sub-verses.

And to go even further, our universe may exists in a black hole in another universe. A Super-verse.



I plan on delving deeper into the Super-erse and Sub-verse concepts in future posts, so have a look out for them.

1) Sub-verses and Super-verses
2) Hologram theory
3) Black hole information storage
4) "Universe as a Computer" Simulation theory
5) Supporting Evidence and resources.
edit on 11-12-2012 by xmaddness because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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Way to make me feel so small and helpless


i love this kind of thinking, truly fascinating.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 12:41 PM
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I agree. The scope of this discussion is sure to make every feel a little small in the grand scheme of things.

I tend to remember this when things in life are stressful; my problems are really of no consequence in the grand picture. It always humbles me to say the least.



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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Just this morning my wife had gotten herself upset over something so trivial that now I can't even remember the reason. I told her, who really cares, in the long run we're all just bags of meat stuck to a speck of dust floating in the void. Only here for less than the blink of an eye in the grand scheme. Look up in the sky at night and think about the vast emptiness up there and your earthly concerns really don't seem so significant.

Unfortunately my speech only made the situation worse and netted me a silent treatment all afternoon



posted on Dec, 11 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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You really need to look into the work of Lee Smolin. He's done a lot of work in this area and even shown that something like evolution-of-physical-law can take place in daughter universes -- if correct, it certainly puts a new light on the anthropic principle!



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 03:15 AM
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Love these sort of discussions, look forward to it continuing!

I'm interested in your conclusion about superverses & subverses. Before I read your conclusion I had made up my own conclusion which I'd like to share.

My idea is that all the universes are connected and continue to branch out infinitely. To make it incredibly simple:

Let's start with Universe A.

Universe A has three black holes.
These black holes lead to Universe B, C & D.
Universe B has 2 black holes that lead to universes E&F (or any naming convention that is easier to follow), and so on and so forth.

Here's a very rough picture I created visualising this:

(The picture embedded gets cut off so please click this link directly):

i48.tinypic.com...




posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by xmaddness
 

Good Effort.
No we live in a hologram and the universe/s is/are a 2 d reality



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 06:06 AM
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I'll never understand why scientists or people go off on a huge tangent like this with black holes.

Here is how I see black holes as being.

Just say you have a Sun, or a body of mass. It has gravity. It pulls objects to it, increasing it's mass, thus increasing it's gravity. It's gravity becomes so huge that light cannot escape the gravitational pull.

At that mass/gravity pull, atoms cannot contain their coherence, and are even ripped apart.

Anyways... So it's an object of immense gravitational pull. Because light cannot escape it, it's deemed a black hole.

It doesn;t mean that another universe is opening up. All t means is that object get pulled into it's gravity feild, and likely crushed down into little bits, adding to it's mass and gravity.

Where does this "creation of another universe" come into it?



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 06:24 AM
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I have no education in science, but I have a question. Could the strong force actually be a miniature black hole?



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 10:51 AM
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S+F, hope to hear more about your theories. I've always had a problem with the Big Bang theory. The universe just popping into existence from nowhere always bothered me. Something had to set it off and I believe it came from a black hole in another universe. But that just opens up the question of where that universe came from and so on. Maybe we'll never really know.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Stunspot
You really need to look into the work of Lee Smolin. He's done a lot of work in this area and even shown that something like evolution-of-physical-law can take place in daughter universes -- if correct, it certainly puts a new light on the anthropic principle!


Absolutely. Smolin has made great advancements into this area, and suggests that the super-verse, sub-verse context not only exists, but it breeds universes in the same way biological entities breed. Almost like using a computer genetic algorithm to determine if a universe is correct or not. In theory, the universe we exist in has actually been made this way buy timeless efforts of natural selection of black hole spawned universes. It would suffice to say that our current universe is actually the next end chain of a string of universes where things were correct, and that is the answer to the proverbial question, "Why am I here?"

He will be included in the section dealing with the sub-verse super-verse discussions.

reply to post by shadowland8
 



Yes, this is exactly what this theory suggests. In essence, I would almost like to think of the chain of universes as a fractal structure. Of course there is nothing to support this, but it would certainly be a possibility.

A Fractal universe.


Originally posted by Angelic Resurrection
reply to post by xmaddness
 

Good Effort.
No we live in a hologram and the universe/s is/are a 2 d reality



It is funny you should mention holographic universe theory. The theory actual suggests that the holograph lives on a 2d plain, and some suggest this plain is the event horizon of a black hole. This suggests that we may live in a black hole, and the holograph lives based on the information storage on the event horizon of the black hole we are in. I will delve into this area deeper forth coming.


reply to post by DaRAGE
 


Understandably this is again only theory. I unfortunately was not able to get my full thoughts out on paper yet, but I will be sure to try and do a better synapses on just how the black hole to universe transition is possible.



I hope to get everything together to formulate a full paper on this, and will post it once complete. It seems there may be more interest in this than I thought. Currently I am transitioning jobs and moving in the next week, so it may have to wait a while longer.

Thanks for the interest though, this subject has always fascinated me.
edit on 12-12-2012 by xmaddness because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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Good news everyone! We're doomed!

DOOOOOOMED!


Question, so our universe is expanding because black holes in other parallel universes are draining their space/time into ours? Does that mean their universes are shrinking? I don't know if that necessarily makes sense, but I like to think that we live in a fractal universe, and this black hole theory could be one explanation on how the multi-verse could go on in infinity.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by jessejamesxx
Question, so our universe is expanding because black holes in other parallel universes are draining their space/time into ours? Does that mean their universes are shrinking? I don't know if that necessarily makes sense, but I like to think that we live in a fractal universe, and this black hole theory could be one explanation on how the multi-verse could go on in infinity.


These are exactly the same questions that many scientists are coming to themselves.

Another fun aspect of this system is that some of the universes would not make it beyond "birth" do to slight variation in the physics that drive them. So some universes will ultimately dead end. The only universes that therefor exist are universes where the physics play well within it. This could then hold some very firm ramifications for quantum theory as well, as the theory that all possible universes with all possible combinations of physics may not necessarily be true.

Fun stuff.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by xmaddness

Originally posted by jessejamesxx
Question, so our universe is expanding because black holes in other parallel universes are draining their space/time into ours? Does that mean their universes are shrinking? I don't know if that necessarily makes sense, but I like to think that we live in a fractal universe, and this black hole theory could be one explanation on how the multi-verse could go on in infinity.


These are exactly the same questions that many scientists are coming to themselves.


Where are people even getting these ideas? These are most certainly not the questions any physicists are asking themselves, because this is demonstrably not what is going on.

The universe is not, in any meaningful sense, inside a black hole (or a while hole, or any other kind of hole you can come up with). That idea is flagrantly ridiculous.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 06:50 PM
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other universes are a direct implication of cosmological observations

A pretty good PDF file on the topic


A pet theory of mine regarding Universe formation is in relation to the issue of La Grange points between galaxies that are in the process of coming together. This in relation to the core's of massive galactic superclusters where galaxies are much closer together. I imagine a scenario where anywhere between 10 to 28 galaxies are within one light year of each other, a point where their respective black holes are in physical contact.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by xmaddness
reply to post by DaRAGE
 


Understandably this is again only theory. I unfortunately was not able to get my full thoughts out on paper yet, but I will be sure to try and do a better synapses on just how the black hole to universe transition is possible.


I just dont understand how scientists think that a universe can form through a black hole. A black hole is there because an object of mass was so large that it's gravity became so enormous that light cannot escape.

The object only disappears from sight as there is no light coming from it. That's the only thing in my view that makes this object special. Gravity so large it can suck in light. Gravity so large that it tears apart the structure of atoms. Other than that to me; it's still a spec of dust in our universe.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by DaRAGE
 


Black holes also collect enormous amounts of matter and as well experience decay (I am not referring to Hawkins radiation). In so far as what is going on with that matter while inside the black hole, process's could exist that result in the formation of a universe.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by xmaddness

Originally posted by jessejamesxx
Question, so our universe is expanding because black holes in other parallel universes are draining their space/time into ours? Does that mean their universes are shrinking? I don't know if that necessarily makes sense, but I like to think that we live in a fractal universe, and this black hole theory could be one explanation on how the multi-verse could go on in infinity.


These are exactly the same questions that many scientists are coming to themselves.

Another fun aspect of this system is that some of the universes would not make it beyond "birth" do to slight variation in the physics that drive them. So some universes will ultimately dead end. The only universes that therefor exist are universes where the physics play well within it. This could then hold some very firm ramifications for quantum theory as well, as the theory that all possible universes with all possible combinations of physics may not necessarily be true.

Fun stuff.


Sounds a lot like biological evolution.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by Moduli


Where are people even getting these ideas? These are most certainly not the questions any physicists are asking themselves, because this is demonstrably not what is going on.

The universe is not, in any meaningful sense, inside a black hole (or a while hole, or any other kind of hole you can come up with). That idea is flagrantly ridiculous.


www.space.com...

phys.org...

www.sciencedaily.com...

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Looks like you're not very up to date on science news. You could have at least done a few minutes of research to prevent yourself being proven wrong.
edit on 12/13/2012 by bl4ke360 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Moduli
Where are people even getting these ideas? These are most certainly not the questions any physicists are asking themselves, because this is demonstrably not what is going on.

The universe is not, in any meaningful sense, inside a black hole (or a while hole, or any other kind of hole you can come up with). That idea is flagrantly ridiculous.


As others have stated, a simple Google search of physics papers will provide a wealth of information on this subject. Originally the idea started being seriously explored around 2010, and by serious I mean mathematics were being done to prove or disprove the possibilities.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.


Originally posted by spaceinvaders
Sounds a lot like biological evolution.


Yes it does, which adds even more fun to the mix. Would this imply that natural selection does not just apply to biological evolution, but to universal aspects as well? This idea of natural selection is also used in some weak AI applications throught the form of Genetic Algorithms, and it works very well with optimizing complex systems.



Originally posted by bl4ke360
Looks like you're not very up to date on science news. You could have at least done a few minutes of research to prevent yourself being proven wrong.
edit on 12/13/2012 by bl4ke360 because: (no reason given)


Thanks for the links!
edit on 13-12-2012 by xmaddness because: (no reason given)





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