Well done.
Mayan Uxmal...what is to come., page 1
Topic started on 11-12-2012 @ 10:10 AM by Kantzveldt
The beginning and end of all things, the revelation of all secrets, or at least that of where the Maize was hidden...an investigation into the
benevolent reptillian-Human hybrid known as Chaac and his sacred City of Uxmal as was his haunt, with furthur consideration given to his seeming
importance in Neolithic China...somewhat surprisingly.
A brief look at what is generally known and stated;
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
Chaac then personifies a principle which i have often noted amongst groups of illustrious Heavenly beings that they often are considered to have come down upon the highest mountains but somehow end up relegated to the deepest subterranean regions, with their status accordingly depreciating to that of lesser demon, but as seen this is entirely natural, and when dark clouds gather upon the horizon and lightning flashes, then they'll be back...rejuvenated.
The rain deity is a patron of agriculture. A well-known myth in which the Chaacs (or related Rain and Lightning deities) have an important role to play is about the opening of the mountain in which the maize was hidden.
Chaac as a rain God naturally gifted maize to humanity, and in terms of the natural cycle the maize was gathered in and stored until the return of the rains, this can become a metaphor as was the case in many Near Eastern societies with grain, of the ingathering of the blessing of the Gods and a natural relationship based upon substenance, and when society is running on empty in terms of natural goodness then their return is hoped for, when the last grains have been taken from within the mountain of storage.
In mythological terms was a Lord of the horizon and the Mountains associated with such as well as the four cardinal directions.
It is important for the purpose of this thread to recognise Chaac in his more abstract representation known as that of the 'mask' type, as here,
One sees the associated square of the Earth and its four indicated cardinal/diagonal directions.
Having learnt to recognize a singular Chaac, one can the see them were they are layered, as in the four either side of the central doorway here;
The Mayans liked layered Chaacs.
Having developed expertise in Chaac spotting one can then take on the most elaborate representations, here one finds five in a stepped pattern, in conjunction with series of stepped squares, capable of indicating the Earth, and what we see here is probably Chaacs function in the creation of and progression through the five worlds, his cyclic role in each stage.
It is these quasi abstract Chaac representations that i consider as having had a counterpart in Neolithic China, here is an example of Chaacs neolithic Chinese cousin known as Taotie;
Here is what i wrote of these on my greatly unappreciated thread Stargates of China
That the Taotie then represents these horizon/mountain based portals joining Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld and the serpentine passageways that inter-connect i have no doubt, nor of their role in funerary custom, the question that remains is was this tradition based upon an technological artifact that facilitated transition between other dimensions or worlds, to which of course i can provide no definative answer.
The general context here then is an association with the four quarters of the Earth, and perhaps circumnavigation or translation between the four sides, it must also be noted that the circles indicatve of the Taotie motif can also be seen without the greater super-structure of the motif, thus the Taotie could be seen to bind pre-existant phenomena
There are examples of what can be refered to as 'King of Congs', were the form is extended and rectangular, ie of many levels, it was common practise to consider the Heavens and the Underworld to consist of numerous levels, but these remarkable artifacts are veritable elevator shafts...
So as with Chaac, i consodered the Taotie to relate to mountains and portals of the horizon, the four cardinal directions, and associated with the serpents that facilitate transition.
The concern with levels or layers is notable in both traditions, the accumulation of cycles and seasons, indeed of worlds resting on upon another, that in stylistic terms a sense of depth by balance creates a sense of height and accomplishment...the height of the Heavens and the depth of the Underworld in serpentine zig zag harmony.
We perhaps learn then that at any given time 'the world' can be seen as a singularity,
But can also be thought of as a layered accumulation of worlds, those which have been, that which is, and that which is to come...
A brief look at what is generally known and stated;
The present name seems to derive from Oxmal meaning three times built seems to refer to his antiquity and the times it had to rebuild. In these scenarios there is no proof whatsoever. However, the etymology is disputed, another possibility is Uchmal which means what is to come, the future
Its buildings are typical of the Puuc style, with smooth low walls that open on ornate friezes based on representations of typical Maya huts, which are represented by columns (representing the reeds with which were built the walls of the huts) and trapezoidal shapes (representing the thatched roofs), entwined snakes and, in many cases two-headed snakes, masks of the rain god, Chaac with its big noses that represent the rays of the storms, and feathered serpents with open fangs leaving from the same human beings. Also seen in some cities influences of Nahua origin and the follow of the cult of Quetzalcoatl and Tlaloc that were integrated with the original bases of the Puuc tradition.
en.wikipedia.org...
Particularly the Huastec Maya (Teenek), have a cyclical concept of water. Virile, young lightning deities dominating the skies during the rainy season are transformed into wasted, terrestrial and subterranean old men (Mamlab 'Grandfather') during the dry season; in the ocean, the old men rejuvenate themselves again. This cyclical concept may well have been shared by the Classic Period Maya.
Chaac is usually depicted with a human body showing reptilian or amphibian scales, and with a non-human head evincing fangs and a long, pendulous nose. In the Classic style, a shell serves as his ear ornament. He often carries shield and lightning-axe, the axe being personified by a closely related deity
en.wikipedia.org...
Chaac then personifies a principle which i have often noted amongst groups of illustrious Heavenly beings that they often are considered to have come down upon the highest mountains but somehow end up relegated to the deepest subterranean regions, with their status accordingly depreciating to that of lesser demon, but as seen this is entirely natural, and when dark clouds gather upon the horizon and lightning flashes, then they'll be back...rejuvenated.
The rain deity is a patron of agriculture. A well-known myth in which the Chaacs (or related Rain and Lightning deities) have an important role to play is about the opening of the mountain in which the maize was hidden.
Chaac as a rain God naturally gifted maize to humanity, and in terms of the natural cycle the maize was gathered in and stored until the return of the rains, this can become a metaphor as was the case in many Near Eastern societies with grain, of the ingathering of the blessing of the Gods and a natural relationship based upon substenance, and when society is running on empty in terms of natural goodness then their return is hoped for, when the last grains have been taken from within the mountain of storage.
In mythological terms was a Lord of the horizon and the Mountains associated with such as well as the four cardinal directions.
It is important for the purpose of this thread to recognise Chaac in his more abstract representation known as that of the 'mask' type, as here,
One sees the associated square of the Earth and its four indicated cardinal/diagonal directions.
Having learnt to recognize a singular Chaac, one can the see them were they are layered, as in the four either side of the central doorway here;
The Mayans liked layered Chaacs.
Having developed expertise in Chaac spotting one can then take on the most elaborate representations, here one finds five in a stepped pattern, in conjunction with series of stepped squares, capable of indicating the Earth, and what we see here is probably Chaacs function in the creation of and progression through the five worlds, his cyclic role in each stage.
It is these quasi abstract Chaac representations that i consider as having had a counterpart in Neolithic China, here is an example of Chaacs neolithic Chinese cousin known as Taotie;
Here is what i wrote of these on my greatly unappreciated thread Stargates of China
That the Taotie then represents these horizon/mountain based portals joining Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld and the serpentine passageways that inter-connect i have no doubt, nor of their role in funerary custom, the question that remains is was this tradition based upon an technological artifact that facilitated transition between other dimensions or worlds, to which of course i can provide no definative answer.
The general context here then is an association with the four quarters of the Earth, and perhaps circumnavigation or translation between the four sides, it must also be noted that the circles indicatve of the Taotie motif can also be seen without the greater super-structure of the motif, thus the Taotie could be seen to bind pre-existant phenomena
There are examples of what can be refered to as 'King of Congs', were the form is extended and rectangular, ie of many levels, it was common practise to consider the Heavens and the Underworld to consist of numerous levels, but these remarkable artifacts are veritable elevator shafts...
So as with Chaac, i consodered the Taotie to relate to mountains and portals of the horizon, the four cardinal directions, and associated with the serpents that facilitate transition.
The concern with levels or layers is notable in both traditions, the accumulation of cycles and seasons, indeed of worlds resting on upon another, that in stylistic terms a sense of depth by balance creates a sense of height and accomplishment...the height of the Heavens and the depth of the Underworld in serpentine zig zag harmony.
We perhaps learn then that at any given time 'the world' can be seen as a singularity,
But can also be thought of as a layered accumulation of worlds, those which have been, that which is, and that which is to come...
edit on 11-12-2012 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 11-12-2012 @ 03:24 PM by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Julie Washington
Thanks, it was a most beautiful city the Maya created and an intriguing reflection of the way of things.
Looking further at the concern with levels of descent into the Underworld, as reflected in the architecture, one finds the natural association of Chaac with Xibalba
www.chapala.com...
Thanks, it was a most beautiful city the Maya created and an intriguing reflection of the way of things.
Looking further at the concern with levels of descent into the Underworld, as reflected in the architecture, one finds the natural association of Chaac with Xibalba
The Mayan word “Xibalba” literally means “the place of fear” and in their mythology it was the lowest of the nine underworlds and the realm of the dead. It was ruled by ten Lords, or demons, of whom One Death and Seven Death were the leaders.
the Maya believed that every cave and cenote gave access to this terrifying underworld. Thousands of entrances to Xibalba lie half-hidden in the dense scrub of the Yucatan peninsula. Since these sites were also sacred to the Rain God, Chac, many of them show evidence of having been used for ceremonial purposes.
www.chapala.com...
edit on 11-12-2012 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 12:50 AM by jisujaaljo
reply to post by Kantzveldt
Hi there friend. Im really sorry to mess up your thread with this,
I tried to send a pm but was not able to.
Im not sure if you remember me but you have helped me with identifying some old stuff a while ago.
I got to artifacts in my possession that i once again have failed to identify.
Been around with them to all sorts of places here in Sweden but no one dares to take a guess.
One is a slate lion and the other is a wooden dog or cat, and to me they both seem to be quite old, but i coul be wrong. Feel like taking a shot at identifying them?
Kind regards / Jimmy
Hi there friend. Im really sorry to mess up your thread with this,
I tried to send a pm but was not able to.
Im not sure if you remember me but you have helped me with identifying some old stuff a while ago.
I got to artifacts in my possession that i once again have failed to identify.
Been around with them to all sorts of places here in Sweden but no one dares to take a guess.
One is a slate lion and the other is a wooden dog or cat, and to me they both seem to be quite old, but i coul be wrong. Feel like taking a shot at identifying them?
Kind regards / Jimmy
reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 03:21 AM by WhoKnows100
reply to post by Kantzveldt
Benevolent? Not so to the poor sacrificed humans by people who worshipped these men as gods. Glorifying these serpent "gods" whilst understanding that your occultic leaders await their "return" should give you pause to understand why they don't hesitate to call the vast populations "useless eaters" and etch in stone their desire for a world population of just 500 million. There is nothing glorious about cultures that built stone alters to place their helpless victims upon just to cut the hearts out of living victims. Therefore, their religious beliefs are nothing to glorify and exalt, and to call this man, deluded into thinking he's a "god", benevolent is only symptomatic of the mind numbing indoctrination going on today. This is what Christ Jesus pushed to the brink of extinction, and yet, here is man once again wanting to worship these men again through bloodletting and human sacrifice.
investigation into the benevolent reptillian-Human hybrid known as Chaac and his sacred City of Uxmal...
Benevolent? Not so to the poor sacrificed humans by people who worshipped these men as gods. Glorifying these serpent "gods" whilst understanding that your occultic leaders await their "return" should give you pause to understand why they don't hesitate to call the vast populations "useless eaters" and etch in stone their desire for a world population of just 500 million. There is nothing glorious about cultures that built stone alters to place their helpless victims upon just to cut the hearts out of living victims. Therefore, their religious beliefs are nothing to glorify and exalt, and to call this man, deluded into thinking he's a "god", benevolent is only symptomatic of the mind numbing indoctrination going on today. This is what Christ Jesus pushed to the brink of extinction, and yet, here is man once again wanting to worship these men again through bloodletting and human sacrifice.
reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 05:49 AM by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Fimbulvetr
It's especially intriguing with regards to the Chinese stylistic similaraties in that the motif in China was particular only to the Liangzhu culture 3400-2250 BC, it continued to be employed to a lesser extent throughout greater Chinese culture as a traditional motif, but in my opinion was no longer understood in its original context nor seen of any great importance...then seemingly it resurfaces amongst the Maya with once again enormous religious significance.
reply to post by jisujaaljo
Hi Jimmy, sure no problem, stick them in here or make a thread i'll give them a shot.
reply to post by WhoKnows100
The sending of the rain and the gift of maize were seen as benevolent, perhaps the mistake of the Mayan Priests was to question the extent of his benevolence in times of draught and attempt to prompt him to be a little more generous by offering unneccesary sacrifice, as we know now killing people doesn't make it rain.
The serpent carries no untoward connotations in the case of Chaac, it was seen as representative of the flow of water, how the rains made their way back to the sea, how they created the subterranean Underworlds, and how swimming serpents were associated.
reply to post by Logiciel
Thanks and indeed so. I think what the iconography causes one to consider is the relationship of the present to the former worlds, how we are founded upon them and supported by them, also of course that this is natural transition and one should not be afraid to enter into the next brave new world.
It's especially intriguing with regards to the Chinese stylistic similaraties in that the motif in China was particular only to the Liangzhu culture 3400-2250 BC, it continued to be employed to a lesser extent throughout greater Chinese culture as a traditional motif, but in my opinion was no longer understood in its original context nor seen of any great importance...then seemingly it resurfaces amongst the Maya with once again enormous religious significance.
reply to post by jisujaaljo
Hi Jimmy, sure no problem, stick them in here or make a thread i'll give them a shot.
reply to post by WhoKnows100
The sending of the rain and the gift of maize were seen as benevolent, perhaps the mistake of the Mayan Priests was to question the extent of his benevolence in times of draught and attempt to prompt him to be a little more generous by offering unneccesary sacrifice, as we know now killing people doesn't make it rain.
The serpent carries no untoward connotations in the case of Chaac, it was seen as representative of the flow of water, how the rains made their way back to the sea, how they created the subterranean Underworlds, and how swimming serpents were associated.
reply to post by Logiciel
Thanks and indeed so. I think what the iconography causes one to consider is the relationship of the present to the former worlds, how we are founded upon them and supported by them, also of course that this is natural transition and one should not be afraid to enter into the next brave new world.
edit on 12-12-2012 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 07:16 AM by Kantzveldt
One question to ponder is can the iconography of the Chaac 'mask' (and the Chinese Taotie 'mask') , in terms of the circle within the circle,
'the eyes', be related to the two rings of the ball court...?
The example from the ball court at Uxmal not unsurprisingly has dedications to Chaac upon it, generally the ball court was seen as a threshold of the Underworld, were the first games were played against Underworld Deities of Death, but the Underworld was created by the waters of Chaac, and there he maintained an uneasy relationship with Death Deities, as his concern was with life bringing principles.
The Chac Ball ring inscriptions
My investigation of the Chinese Taotie symbol concluded that this represented two circular portals of the horizon, generally these would be seen as in the East and West, with the Sun, as well as the moon, planets and various stars being seen to pass through along the ecliptic plane.
The example from the ball court at Uxmal not unsurprisingly has dedications to Chaac upon it, generally the ball court was seen as a threshold of the Underworld, were the first games were played against Underworld Deities of Death, but the Underworld was created by the waters of Chaac, and there he maintained an uneasy relationship with Death Deities, as his concern was with life bringing principles.
The Chac Ball ring inscriptions
My investigation of the Chinese Taotie symbol concluded that this represented two circular portals of the horizon, generally these would be seen as in the East and West, with the Sun, as well as the moon, planets and various stars being seen to pass through along the ecliptic plane.
reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 07:35 AM by athousandlives
reply to post by Kantzveldt
wow, beautiful, thank you very much for the pictures and your ideas, I had never seen those pics before and am mesmerized at the level of detail and intricate ornaments of that city, if it looks so beautiful now, one can only wonder how it must have been at the time!
cheers
wow, beautiful, thank you very much for the pictures and your ideas, I had never seen those pics before and am mesmerized at the level of detail and intricate ornaments of that city, if it looks so beautiful now, one can only wonder how it must have been at the time!
cheers
reply posted on 12-12-2012 @ 08:35 AM by Kantzveldt
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
Thanks, as you say such crossover similarities will be found amongst Near Eastern agriculture dependent cultures, as well as Neolithic China.
reply to post by athousandlives
This site is by far the best resource for images of several Mayan cities;
academic.reed.edu...
reply to post by Plotus
The three layers in that example rest upon a fourth, a construct of the fourth world. The square with diagonals represents the Earth, there were four lesser Chac rain Gods assigned to the four horizons, with a fifth equating with centre and the connectivity to the Heavens...reinforcing the point that these are abstract cosmological representations of Chaac.
reply to post by Nikola014
Thanks for your kind words (and also too others), i think there is more to be wrote on this and hopefully i prompt such flashes of light in the general gloom...
Thanks, as you say such crossover similarities will be found amongst Near Eastern agriculture dependent cultures, as well as Neolithic China.
reply to post by athousandlives
This site is by far the best resource for images of several Mayan cities;
academic.reed.edu...
reply to post by Plotus
The three layers in that example rest upon a fourth, a construct of the fourth world. The square with diagonals represents the Earth, there were four lesser Chac rain Gods assigned to the four horizons, with a fifth equating with centre and the connectivity to the Heavens...reinforcing the point that these are abstract cosmological representations of Chaac.
reply to post by Nikola014
Thanks for your kind words (and also too others), i think there is more to be wrote on this and hopefully i prompt such flashes of light in the general gloom...
edit on 12-12-2012 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)
Egypt\'s Ancient Fleet: Lost for Thousands of Years, Discovered in Cave
Posted 17 days ago with 95 member flags
Posted 17 days ago with 95 member flags
Arizona man finds what he believes will change American prehistoric history....
Posted 19 days ago with 56 member flags
Posted 19 days ago with 56 member flags
Plantagenet Legacy Paved Over??? Presidents, Christianity, And Hidden History.
Posted 11 days ago with 18 member flags
Posted 11 days ago with 18 member flags
Newest topics, updated in real-time:
Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:
EU Parliament member: The Banking system is a criminal scandal!
Global Meltdown: 9 hours ago, 35 flags
Global Meltdown: 9 hours ago, 35 flags
Archaeologists uncover nearly 5,000 ancient cave paintings in Burgos, Mexico
Ancient & Lost Civilizations: 8 hours ago, 20 flags
Ancient & Lost Civilizations: 8 hours ago, 20 flags
The One Man who can End Barack Obama’s Presidency Tomorrow
US Political Madness: 10 hours ago, 20 flags
US Political Madness: 10 hours ago, 20 flags
The Final Push for Gun Control is Coming This Fall
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 8 hours ago, 19 flags
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 8 hours ago, 19 flags
They are digitally manipulating photos and video to make it look like the man has bloody hands!!!
ATS Skunk Works: 12 hours ago, 16 flags
ATS Skunk Works: 12 hours ago, 16 flags
Some Great Art Depicting Disparity between Jesus and Republicans
Political Ideology: 14 hours ago, 13 flags
Political Ideology: 14 hours ago, 13 flags
Cindy Thomas: IRS Agent Giving Targeting Orders Identified?
Breaking Political News: 8 hours ago, 11 flags
Breaking Political News: 8 hours ago, 11 flags
Newest topics getting replies, in real-time:
They are digitally manipulating photos and video to make it look like the man has bloody hands!!!
ATS Skunk Works: 12 hours ago, 88 replies
ATS Skunk Works: 12 hours ago, 88 replies
Video of Woolrich Attacker... Having a Conversation Literally Red Handed?
Other Current Events: 15 hours ago, 67 replies
Other Current Events: 15 hours ago, 67 replies
The One Man who can End Barack Obama’s Presidency Tomorrow
US Political Madness: 10 hours ago, 39 replies
US Political Madness: 10 hours ago, 39 replies
Some Great Art Depicting Disparity between Jesus and Republicans
Political Ideology: 14 hours ago, 35 replies
Political Ideology: 14 hours ago, 35 replies
The Final Push for Gun Control is Coming This Fall
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 8 hours ago, 34 replies
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 8 hours ago, 34 replies
Incapacitating Debt as the Cause of London Beheading?
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 13 hours ago, 26 replies
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 13 hours ago, 26 replies
The Above Top Secret Web sites are a
wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www3.theabovenetwork.com
Header data: 0.002 seconds
Page processed in: 0.333 seconds
wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www3.theabovenetwork.com
Header data: 0.002 seconds
Page processed in: 0.333 seconds
