Are all Christians blindly hypocritical?

reply to post by Dynamike



Ah yes this stuff can get well out of hand once you start thinking it through

The position of Christianity is that someone created this universe – a universe in which sentient minds have to communicate with each other using reasoning and evidence, but that the existence of that creator has to be taken on faith, with faith being the exact opposite of reasoning and evidence

Hang on - maybe there is a god and he has created a test to see if you are naughty or nice but the test isn’t that you do see the bible as being good but that you are shocked that anyone would associate the creator of this universe with the main character portrayed in the bible

reply to post by racasan


Then I should be passing with flying colors.

reply to post by Dynamike

I'm sorry but if you don't believe that more likely than not the simplest answer is the most sound then you do not understand logic and reasoning.

Seems you've got this "simplest" idea stuck in your head with nothing to back it up. That's what we call weak sauce. Unless you can provide some factual link to support this, until then it's a joke.

The way the human body functions is simple then? Creating and appreciating art is logical and reasonable then? Selflessly loving another is logical and reasonable?

You've chosen your "simplest" theory w no back up, and parade around all sorts complexities of exist as if they don't exist, completely ignoring all my points on the complexities of subjects like infinite math, calc, rocket science, quantum physics, etc.

That's cool though...... you've chosen your illusion to live by and it seems a weak minded one to ignore the deeper philosophical questions of life and existence.

Ive read your posts on here and my circle of philosophy professors and intellectuals would utterly destroy you in debates. But that's not the point

I have love and compassion for you and feel sorry that you've taken this egotistical logic only illusion that doesn't account for vast branches of thought, math, science, existence, etc.

The cool thing is, the death of your physical vessel will come quicker then you think and then you'll see what really goes on in the spiritual realms and how your "simplest" illusion was a joke.

reply to post by dominicus

The cool thing is, the death of your physical vessel will come quicker then you think and then you'll see what really goes on in the spiritual realms and how your "simplest" illusion was a joke.

You say that like you visit Hell regularly.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by dominicus

 

The cool thing is, the death of your physical vessel will come quicker then you think and then you'll see what really goes on in the spiritual realms and how your "simplest" illusion was a joke.

You say that like you visit Hell regularly.

Hah!!!! Hell is our earthly existence perhaps.

Been out of the body, have seen whats on the other side, remember pre-existing and discussing coming to "earth" and being "born"...... and continue to explore outside of the body ........ and have met a large number of others who have had, and continue to have, similar experiences (buddhists, mystics, christians, yogis, and plain ole philosophers as well)

All this to say, i was once an atheist and knew all the arguments and would take pleasure in destroying folks who were not atheists. Once Ive seen the other side, well its impossible to be an atheist then.

That's why i scratched my head at dynamike's "simplest answer" theory which is a crock of crap w no support. Ask a quantum physicist or rocket scientist to explain in detail their branch of study, and their is no simple to it, or to the why the body functions. Existence itself, the size and speed of it , is beyond what logic nd reason can grasp/comprehend.

Oh well

reply to post by dominicus


And all this wonderful knowledge has convinced you that Christianity is the best path for everyone?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

And all this wonderful knowledge has convinced you that Christianity is the best path for everyone?

Its applicable to everyone, and can be for everyone, however what we have in the west as a dominant form of Christianity, is actually a very dumded down and watered down version.

The majority of spiritual paths are universal in nature and are themselves not defined by borders and boundaries. For example Buddhism, is not a religion but basically repeatable set of experiential factors that occur upon meditating or going within. Buddha himself said not to take his word for it but to test for yourself if his precepts are true and pan out as he said.....

Same goes for Christ's teachings. They are testable and produce mystical results. One becomes a spiritual scientist along the way, the direct experiences in consciousness being the laboratory itself.

Atheism produces a super hard lined skepticism that prevents one from unbiasedly even looking into or testing certain branches of testable philosophy and thought. It creates a self imposed self justified prison based on various illusions where the left brain becomes dominant, lacking the balance of the right brain, the heart, intuition, the gut, etc.

Obviously those that think the simple answer is yes are not in touch with reality. Had you said more rather then all I wouldn't be posting in this thread due to It "MAY BE" accurate
But being Christian all my life makes your statement in saying all just wrong.
I personally don't care what you or anyone else believes.
Nor have I ever had any Christians at my door spreading the word of God that I wasn't already actively in the cause with from my Church itself ever.

Now I have had Jehovah Wittiness come everywhere I have lived. I admire them in their wanting to spread their word. And they make perfect sense in many things that they simply prove in any bible. Like the cross itself totally is bogus and should really not be worn.
And that Gods name is Jehovah and has actually been removed in many Bibles it used to be placed in.

And as a Christian I'm also for abortion in some cases but not all. Does that make me non-Christian?

I believe that spreading the word of God is good but shouldn't be forced on those that don't want it. I'm not the judge God is in the end.

And as far as that thing you got there on if God was so great and powerful he would rid the world of evil.
Yet if you understood God you would know there will be a day he does just that. But first the times we are in now with all this evil going on is God showing why it must be destroyed for he did not want this from the beginning but wanted it to be shown why his way is better rather then just force it upon us.

reply to post by dominicus

Originally posted by dominicus
Atheism produces a super hard lined skepticism that prevents one from unbiasedly even looking into or testing certain branches of testable philosophy and thought. It creates a self imposed self justified prison based on various illusions where the left brain becomes dominant, lacking the balance of the right brain, the heart, intuition, the gut, etc.

I must respectfully disagree with this, sir. There are many right-brained atheists as well. Film makers, authors, musicians, artists and others, many of whom are also left-handed. I'm also right-brained and left-handed, and my "almost" atheism doesn't prevent me from using my intuition. Atheists have hearts too, and we do use them. To imply otherwise is a little... well, not nice.

In fact, having the left hemisphere there to rein in the right side actually strengthens the imagination! We have so many ideas about the supernatural, but usually we think of shapes, colours and other concepts that manifest in nature with no extra-universal help whatsoever. That left-brain thought clears the right hemisphere so that it can try to imagine truly supernatural concepts. Many atheists realise the value of the non-rational; just instead choosing to keep it as fantasy and inspiration rather than believing it as hard-line truth. That balance works wonders for me, anyway.

Originally posted by dominicus
That's why i scratched my head at dynamike's "simplest answer" theory which is a crock of crap w no support.

Actually, that's not right, but maybe he explained it wrong. In science, the simplest answer is preferred, because it's usually the right one, and the clearest. That doesn't mean that the simplest answer is always right, because, as you pointed out, there are lots of instances where it is not.

Ockham’s Razor is a principle; that is, it does not tell us that the simplest explanation is true (or what there is); but instead that we ought to prefer it on methodological grounds. We are counselled to adopt theories which are minimally efficient, insofar as they can do the same with less. (Source)

The most illustrative example of how this doesn't always work out is reality itself. It is nearly infinitely more likely for there to be nothing, rather than something, because nothing is nearly infinitely more simple than something, and yet here we are, a reality that exists.

reply to post by adjensen


Which tells me that SOMETHING supported the growth of everything that exists. Something helped this world along.

reply to post by ihavenoaccount

I must respectfully disagree with this, sir. There are many right-brained atheists as well. Film makers, authors, musicians, artists and others, many of whom are also left-handed. I'm also right-brained and left-handed, and my "almost" atheism doesn't prevent me from using my intuition. Atheists have hearts too, and we do use them. To imply otherwise is a little... well, not nice.

What I meant to say is that many, if not most atheists, have the whole left brained dominance going on. The majority of atheists that i know are engineers, mathematicians, physicists, or other left brained jobs. Certainly not all are in this category.

reply to post by adjensen

Actually, that's not right, but maybe he explained it wrong. In science, the simplest answer is preferred, because it's usually the right one, and the clearest. That doesn't mean that the simplest answer is always right, because, as you pointed out, there are lots of instances where it is not.

Ok so we're discussing ockham's razor, a theory. Actually a theory that doesn't always apply to everything.

The most illustrative example of how this doesn't always work out is reality itself. It is nearly infinitely more likely for there to be nothing, rather than something, because nothing is nearly infinitely more simple than something, and yet here we are, a reality that exists.

Thank you!!!!! That was my point as well in regards to reality itself and the vastness of it is where ockham's razor no longer applies, hence a theory not applicable to all.

reply to post by dominicus

Originally posted by dominicus
What I meant to say is that many, if not most atheists, have the whole left brained dominance going on. The majority of atheists that i know are engineers, mathematicians, physicists, or other left brained jobs. Certainly not all are in this category.

Certainly, there are many atheists within those fields. But all of those fields require the right hemisphere for progress. Logic, patterns, analysing discrete data and rote memorization are invaluable, as are creativity, divergent thinking, intuition etc. for a well-rounded, innovative human mind. Balance is imperative.

Yes, we do need to value the right-hemisphere tremendously more in society, but some of the people on that bandwagon talk as if science and logic don't matter at all... even though that's how we found out how the brain works in the first place.

reply to post by ihavenoaccount


Reason versus intuition, logic versus emotion. It certainly is difficult to reconcile the two to their full potential, isn't it? Logic can be cold and unforgiving, emotion can be hot and passionate. They both drive us to do the unthinkable. The hardest part about emotion is telling the difference between what you should do and what you want to do. Emotion is the motivation, logic is the means. We don't want to be afraid anymore. we're tired of risks, we're tired of the damnable nature of our brothers and sisters. We need an out, a safeguard we can always depend on. so whether or not it makes sense, we choose religion because it gives us the satisfaction of not having to worry.

This is not always a good thing...and that's where logic comes into play. But between reassuring fuzzies in our stomach, and the cold burn of knowing exactly what we've done to each other and the world...which are we willing to face? That's the question every man and woman must ask themselves before deciding to become a member of any religion. Are we strong enough to face the truth? If given the choice between reality and illusion, can we trust ourselves to make the right choice?

I don't think so, because there will always be someone with a convenient lie, ready to spread their gospel for the benefit of controlling the minds of their fellow men. We don't have the backbone to stand up for truth, not for something so big.

reply to post by adjensen


The evidence suggests that morality and ethics are subjective, not objective. This means there is a dual nature to them. Whether your view will change or not is, unfortunately, irrelevant; but it shouldn't be. In an optimal world, whenever someone's beliefs were shown to be inaccurate they would be discarded. Unfortunately, we hold on to faulty beliefs because they comfort us. As a fundamentally insecure species, we always will. That's a shame.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by adjensen


I couldn't have said it better myself. I've just been so busy that I could not elaborate.

Its funny you put that into perspective because one idea that keeps reoccurring in my head is that life itself is aiming to bring nothingness through order and that chaos is the only remedy that keeps life driving forward.

Its like were a string on a guitar that has been plucked. Were vibrating in a distorted flux causing waves to emanate forward. This theme seems to occur throughout the universe from the vibrating one dimensional strings that bring forth three dimensional particles that simultaneously live in a wave of undetermined probability. To the wavelike formation of the fifth dimension communicated through waves of gravitons.

It seems like all of this was caused by one big jolt that displaced an ancient singularity. And here we are; a living being attempting to bring back order to the now chaotic disorder we call the universe. We find beauty in symmetry and order. We attempt to place the world around us into a filing system. Its reminisce of David Baxters Time Ships where our descendants millions of years from now will use all of the matter in the universe to bring order.

I'm sorry I am ranting a bit. I'm just finding a bit of beauty amidst chaos tonight.

reply to post by dominicus


I suppose I didn't address all of the issues you made, I just dismissed them with a whim of an answer. But you too emanate a bit of hypocrisy don't you. Isn't it ironic that you hold other peoples ideals or opinions to a standard of links and documented facts and yet your foundation of beliefs are based on fanciful stories of people claiming to be prophets or having supernatural powers.

The secret to the universe is not yet within our understanding. And it certainly is not within your imagination. There are hints of it held within the small details of how the universe works but we just have to connect the dots. And you do this merely by drawing a straight line. Simple.

reply to post by Dynamike

Isn't it ironic that you hold other peoples ideals or opinions to a standard of links and documented facts and yet your foundation of beliefs are based on fanciful stories of people claiming to be prophets or having supernatural powers.

Perhaps it would be better to ask me whether I believe or not, if those Mystics and philosophers which I follow, have supernatural powers or not ...instead of assuming.

Buddha said to test his principles for yourself if they are true. The same can apply to Christianity, Nondual Philosophy, and etc etc. The Inner realms and consciousness are the laboratories to see if what Buddha, Jesus, Socrates, etc said is true or not. I've looked within, and found what they all taught, to be true to certain degrees, and have yet to plumb the depths of others.

Your coming from a position, as most atheists do, of not having investigated within (because the doubt and biased programming doesn't allow you to). If you want links to see what I'm about, just google, "Direct Mystical Experiences, Buddhism, Dzogchen, Nonduaity, Atma or Para Nadi, Nisargadatta, Anadi, Desert Fathers, Socrates on Mystical experiences and Absolute Beingness"

The secret to the universe is not yet within our understanding. And it certainly is not within your imagination. There are hints of it held within the small details of how the universe works but we just have to connect the dots. And you do this merely by drawing a straight line. Simple.

Cool. I agree somewhat, except that Occams Razor is a theory. There are various examples in life, such as reality/existence itself, where straight lines don't always apply. Also, it's inevitable and a matter of time before science quantifies spirituality. It's already starting to happen with certain scientific pioneers taking the lead and having to battle through the majority of science which tends to live in a status quo box of their own making. As the old blood dies out, and new blood takes over in science, more and more will start to study the subjects that the status quo says is woo, taboo, psuedo ....just like consciousness was considered woo, taboo, psuedo not even 15-20 years ago.

reply to post by dominicus


Smithsonian

Can anyone tell me at what size of the human brain did we create a spirit in the history of the evolution of the human brain? Or do all animals have spirits? What about insects because they just have complex nervous systems. What about all of the animals that have become extinct? Did you know that 99% of all animals that have existed on earth are extinct?

I am not trying to be condescending, these are serious questions I would like to know. And to be honest I would love to believe in supernatural human abilities or spiritual presence but I have yet to find evidence or even any room for possibility.

reply to post by Dynamike

Can anyone tell me at what size of the human brain did we create a spirit in the history of the evolution of the human brain? Or do all animals have spirits? What about insects because they just have complex nervous systems. What about all of the animals that have become extinct? Did you know that 99% of all animals that have existed on earth are extinct?

there's a number of ideas and theories that are questions to these answers, however at the very onset, your assumptions are that there is only a physical realm and what we can know through our senses. Math and science has already proven the high probability of the existence of various dimensions all super imposed over ours.

Because I was an Atheist once, I too held all the same points & arguments that you try to bring up and I did it well enough to make people leave their faith and cry. What destroyed all my Atheism was Buddha's offer to test for myself if what he said was true. Many of his teachings I experienced in the realm of consciousness. Took Jesus' teachings also as a test, and they too panned out to direct experiences and access to higher faculties than logic & reason (i.e. transcendence, timelessness, expanded consciousness, and universal empathy to certain degrees)

The seed in your argument is that w are only physical bodies on a physical realm. That's assumption

I am not trying to be condescending, these are serious questions I would like to know. And to be honest I would love to believe in supernatural human abilities or spiritual presence but I have yet to find evidence or even any room for possibility.

the thing is, the proof/evidence can only be experienced in consciousness. Just like having a cold beer on a hot day. You need anyone to tell you about it, or read books about it, or doubt beer, you jump in there willingly, crack it open, and experience it directly through consciousness.

Same goes for the Spiritual things. It requires dropping atheism and at least going in agnosticism and saying "I don't know". The not knowing is neutral enough to allow one to investigate various teaching, philosophies, techniques, and so forth.

Science, materialist based, gets its proof & evidence through the scientific method ...objective proof. But spiritual realities and experiences are immaterial, so the scientific method's rules and limits can't apply to them. Spirituality can provide subjective proof directly to you in the realm of your own consciousness being the laboratory ...and you can google your experience, and find the exact same thing, or similar things being mentioned throughout history, dating back thousands of years, or modern day forums where they are discussed.

Granted Western Christianity is polluted, corrupt, and watered down, and they hold a large number of hypocrits. However, you can find a pure form in Eastern orthdoxy, Desert Fathers, Christian Mysticism, and many of the other major religions and philosophies apply as well. All they really are , is a bunch of blueprints on how to reach enlightenment.

There are douche bag lying hypocrits representing atheism, christianity, america, greece, man, woman.....anything that is being represented in anyway, has douche bag lying hypocrits, but that doesn't mean the thing they represent is bad, like a gun can be used to kill or protect, yet is inherently neutral.

All this to say, that my life as a Mystic and experiencer of the things that Buddha, Jesus, Socrates, and many others taught, is a million times better than when I was an atheist/strict materialist.

Besides that, there is just way too much coming down the pipeline in future science, that looks to be coming close to quantify spiritual reality. It's just in it's infancy and has some barriers to break through