First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

This is something that has to be done. Look around. Christians are not only getting solely blamed for this but many other things as well.
It has to be done. It will get much worse but it has to.

I personally do not believe the government should have a role in marriages. This is something that should be out of governmental hands.
Quad

Originally posted by Quadrivium
This is something that has to be done. Look around. Christians are not only getting solely blamed for this but many other things as well.
It has to be done. It will get much worse but it has to.

I personally do not believe the government should have a role in marriages. This is something that should be out of governmental hands.
Quad

So a religion with many different sects of differing beliefs should be thes who decide who can marry who??

The only hands this issue should be in are the two people who want to get married.

The Marxist agenda is to target Christianity and to empty the churches.

Despite a few cases of Muslims trying to get the right to get married in a mosque, no one takes it seriously because Islam is not a targeted religion.

Yeah Theocratic Muslim countries like Iran just hang the gays in their country, I can totally see why the gay community wouldn't stage rallies to support equal rights there. You never see posters of Muhamod depicted as Hitler like you see the pope at Pride demotrations. LGBT marches are never held in front of Mosques. I'm going to guess that it's just alot safer not to protest against Islam in regards to homosexuality.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

how many muslims live in america? at last count 1.5 million, how many christians? 200 million? maybe more?
given that number, who has more influence over american law? oh yeah christians. some whiners looking to attack islam may say islam has influence by cherry picking thousand to one events, but no christians beat muslim influence by far.
you can barely run if you aren't a christian in most places, so christianity has waaaay more control over american society.

civil unions have already proven to not work, given that a a company already attempted to divide civil union benefits from marriage benefits by saying a couple was in a union not marriage.

you don't really sound like an agnostic to me, you sound like an evangelical pretending to be an agnostic.
you frame your argument like a christian does, not someone outside christianity, you go on about "redefining" marriage, but only christians say that, since they are taught marriage is something god created, not man, but man created it, thousands of years before the abrahamic religions.

thing is, marriage has been "redefined" thousands of times, the always one man, one woman thing is a christian fiction.
no one does anything to "demonize" christians, they do it to themselves, they think their religion can dictate national policy, while even a large number of christians don't think gay marriage is wrong.

they are the minority, not the majority and their reasons are flawed or lies. the best they can do is bring up disease statistics or weak red herrings. they have no secular reasons to disallow it, so they are left with religious ones, and that isn't good enough.

I'd imagine because that's where all the weddings would be.
And also because it's the Christians raising the loudest complaints about lt..

When you are fighting for your rights, you speak up against the groups that stand in opposition to those rights. In America, Christians are the biggest and loudest obstacle to gay rights. When you hear people argue against gay rights it's always "the bible says _____" or "it's against my religion". It's not like gays are getting together and plotting attacks on Christianity, they are getting religious opposition so they meet the opposition.

Religious people who make it their business to impose their religion on others should really stop playing victim when people don't willingly accept it.

Also the myth that marriage is owned by Christians really needs to die. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists and every other group gets married as well. I'm not a christian so I won't be married in a church, same is true for many gays, yet the church wants to dictate what they can and can't do in all cases, so don't blame people for having a problem with that.

There is also gay friendly churches that would gladly marry gays given the option to do so, but they don't have the power to do so because one group decided their way is the only way.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage?

Holy crap, I can't believe people are still believing this. Since when does the Christian church hold a monopoly on our English dictionary? "Marriage" is not some magic word that Jesus made up. It's a word and it is not defined by Webster as being only between a man and a woman.

NOBODY is trying to redefine the "Christian" definition for anything. Christians have alternative definitions for all kinds of words like "charity" and "love", etc.

Nobody is telling the Christian church to do anything. They can still call gay people sinners. They don't have to "gay marry" anybody in their churches. Their bigotry will remain completely intact and ready to hold back yet another generation, don't you worry.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

In a word? Yes, that's what it's really all about. Any time any such issue comes up, the comments are always directed at the "backwards Christians".

Originally posted by Carreau
Yeah Theocratic Muslim countries like Iran just hang the gays in their country, I can totally see why the gay community wouldn't stage rallies to support equal rights there. You never see posters of Muhamod depicted as Hitler like you see the pope at Pride demotrations. LGBT marches are never held in front of Mosques. I'm going to guess that it's just alot safer not to protest against Islam in regards to homosexuality.

Can't say I have ever seen the Pope depicted as Hitler before..

I have seen him depicted as Emperor Palpatine tho...

Originally posted by PvtHudson
First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

America is still a superficially Christian culture. Religion-wise, and there's an oxymoron, the Christian paradigm is still the predominant one - no matter what the paranoid Christian right believe. Even extremely vocal atheists like Richard Dawkins describes himself a 'culturally Christian' despite his views on Christianity and religion in general. It provides a cultural backdrop that informs our lives like no other religion does.

You ask as to why people aren't wanting to get married in mosques, I'd have thought most gay couples in America have a 'culturally Christian' background because of the above point. Rightly, or wrongly, they will relate to marriage within this context, not to an Islamic one or maybe a Hindu one.

Also, it's not a massive stretch to think that many gay people in America might actually be Christians - whether other Christians like it or not - and therefore want their union recognised in a Christian context by a loving, accepting, inclusive Christian god.

Originally posted by PvtHudson

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

It's about the occult under Satan redefining Creationism. The same movement underway to remove the terms "husband", "wife", "father" and "mother" because they are of Creation. The occult's ideal is androgyny - sexless. You will now be spouse #1 and partner #1 and parent #1. It removes what Our God defined, and is being stripped from the lands which set up their laws under Biblical principals. Here in the UK the law defines marriage as between a man and woman and when they enter into a marriage they are husband and wife. How do you get society to remove the status quo? Set up "equality laws" and "anti-discrimination" laws then use them to enforce a change to the 98% of the population in the name of the 2% minority. Very simple and very effective. The 98% don't understand that their occult morality believes in non-duality with regard to gender and sexuality, and as such the vast majority simply think its secular ...e.g. non-religious. Unfortunately, it's so completely opposite - they ditch the true God of Heaven and Earth in favour of the occult vision.

Satan has to get his army to fight Christ from somewhere. His short season is upon us, and the great-grandchildren of Christian forefathers are not only enabling him but actively supporting his last deception. Why? They are deceived and have no understanding what the occult believes. If they knew that the occult ideal is adrogyny and that they are fulfilling their agenda - placing their religious beliefs on the population under the guise of 'secular humanism', perhaps this agenda to use 2% of the population to enforce a complete takedown of Christian truth might be resisted. But instead, most are too busy putting sodomy into their heterosexual lives and believing the false media portrayal of the innocence of gays and the evilness of Christian living. It's lost on many that their Creator told them that wickedness will be redefined as good and good redefined as evil, and that just as the days of Noah and Lot so would the end be...a world that seeks evil continually thinking that it's doing right. When we live in a world whereby it's gospel is all forms of media, and that media is produced and allowed by those in charge, the world adopts it's values and morality that it preaches. They ironically say the Bible is full of lies and untruths, yet readily adopt Satan's gospel courtesy of the world's LARGEST PULPIT, beamed into their brains and hearts for hours on end, day in day out, year after year.

As such, man and woman will be stripped from the definition of marriage. Once that happens, Christian churches will be forced under anti-discrimination laws to comply all in the name of equality. Tragic when it is exactly what occultists desire.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by PvtHudson
Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage?

Holy crap, I can't believe people are still believing this. Since when does the Christian church hold a monopoly on our English dictionary? "Marriage" is not some magic word that Jesus made up. It's a word and it is not defined by Webster as being only between a man and a woman.

NOBODY is trying to redefine the "Christian" definition for anything. Christians have alternative definitions for all kinds of words like "charity" and "love", etc.

Nobody is telling the Christian church to do anything. They can still call gay people sinners. They don't have to "gay marry" anybody in their churches. Their bigotry will remain completely intact and ready to hold back yet another generation, don't you worry.

Prior to getting to the point, it took America until the 1960's before segregation based on colour was against state law, so it's a little rich calling a religion bigoted! Anyway...

I think you aren't covering the full issue. There are two points, should the state (and I mean government by state, not individual American states for those of you that are American) recognise the marriage rather than civil partnership between two people of the same sex? That is I guess a legal question that is fairly straightforward. The state issues the marriage license so no religious input is required.

The second point is should a religion - any religion be forced by the state to perform same sex marriage? That is a different question and is the issue. In the UK for example there is discussion that the Church of England should be 'influenced' to perform same sex marriage as it is classed as the state religion and members of its clergy sit in the house of Lords. Not personally sure what I think of that.

For what it's worth, my view is that same sex marriage performed by the state in a non religious building should be as legal as a mixed sex marriage - that is in line with equal rights (no trolling please, this is based on a couple of consensual age). I don't believe any religion should be co-erced to do the same.

Originally posted by WhoKnows100


It's about the occult under Satan redefining Creationism. The same movement underway to remove the terms "husband", "wife", "father" and "mother" because they are of Creation. The occult's ideal is androgyny - sexless. You will now be spouse #1 and partner #1 and parent #1. It removes what Our God defined, and is being stripped from the lands which set up their laws under Biblical principals. Here in the UK the law defines marriage as between a man and woman and when they enter into a marriage they are husband and wife. How do you get society to remove the status quo? Set up "equality laws" and "anti-discrimination" laws then use them to enforce a change to the 98% of the population in the name of the 2% minority. Very simple and very effective. The 98% don't understand that their occult morality believes in non-duality with regard to gender and sexuality, and as such the vast majority simply think its secular ...e.g. non-religious. Unfortunately, it's so completely opposite - they ditch the true God of Heaven and Earth in favour of the occult vision.

Unfortunately, all this hinges on your religion being true and 'real'.

Your argument is laughable. On the one hand you're using law as a proof of something and to back up your point then, literally in the next sentence, you're whining (to the point of using 'scare quotes) about laws that undermine your own point or threaten the laws you actually want/approve of. Laws change, and these same sex marriage laws will change sooner rather than later.

Your use of statistic is simplistic to the point of being ridiculous. A massive chunk of that 98% are pretty indifferent to the idea of gay marriage: its just way, way, way down on people's priorities at the moment. As it should be; anyone that thinks this is a more serious issue and is more threatening to our society than Britain's housing crisis, the backdoor privatisation of the NHS &c., is a fool.

I'm imagining you have also have a selective interpretation of the bible. Homosexuals bad? Mixed fibres, shellfish, rabbit, pork, hair cuts and shaving, interacting with menstruating OK?