A simple question for those that believe in God

This inst a post to advocate or dispel the notion of God. It's a simple question that I am curious to see what peoples answers are.

In after school bible study many years ago along with trips to church and in the general arena there is this notion of god.

He is the one true god. The beginning and end and all things in between. The alpha and the omega. The all powerful, all knowing. The light and the dark. And so on and so forth.

There is a general statement that once something is known it cannot be unknown and that seems to be true. So if this all powerful all knowing being is out there that set all things in motion and knew the outcome of all things through history, essentially before it even started.

Then how can he have given us free choice?

It's one thing to say that you can choose to be good or bad, gay or straight, poor or rich. But with this idea of a all seeing all knowing god your really just along for the ride.

Many philosophers have struggled with the idea of free-will when considered under the light of God's omniscience. As you pointed out, God's knowledge of future events doesn't seem to allow much room for free-choice; it is puzzling. One approach to solving this problem is called Open Theism, & professes that God cannot have certain and absolute knowledge about the future of human free-choice, only she may have guesses based upon probability, as the future remains to be written. Of course, this conflicts with some doctrines in various religions, and it is argued that Open Theism limits Gods capabilities, when by definition, God is limitless. However, this limitation is based upon logical considerations that arguably, do not limit the nature of such a being. For instance, it is impossible to make a circle with four corners - yet are we to believe that God can accomplish a feat? Certainly not, as sch a being is in fact, limited by laws of logic - i.e., she cannot make a married bachelor.

WIkipedia has an interesting article on this:

en.wikipedia.org...

Take care

reply to post by circuitsports

there is this something, like instinct, alarm. when you drive too fast or go to near to a cliff, there comes a feeling of warning.
now, when you get tempted or seduced in life, it all depends on this "alarm". is this alarm you or something with you ?

Originally posted by circuitsports
Then how can he have given us free choice?

Because pre-knowledge isn't pre-destination. Let's say that you have an opportunity to steal a loaf of bread. God knows whether you'll do it or not, but you don't do it based on that knowledge -- he just knows the decision that you'll make, but it's still your decision. If God knows, before that fact that you stole the bread, it means that you'll decide, of your own free will, to steal it.

It's one thing to say that you can choose to be good or bad, gay or straight, poor or rich. But with this idea of a all seeing all knowing god your really just along for the ride.

People don't "choose to be gay or straight".

He only knows, we choose for ourselves...

reply to post by circuitsports


This is a good question. I was raised Baptist, and over the years I have gone in my own direction so to speak. What I mean by that is that I do not take every word of the Bible literally. I have many questions and the one you ask here is one of mine. I have posed this question to many people in my family, one of which is the pastor of a church and has a Doctorate in Theology. If God does indeed know everything, then he knew the outcome of all things. He knew who would go to heaven and hell, he knew the choices everyone would make, and the consequences of those choices. He knew who would reject him. This being the case, how is it that Mankind has freewill? It seems to me that the game was rigged from the start, or to put it another way, that MY destiny and YOUR destiny was predetermined long before we were even born. I'm not sure if there is a straight forward answer to this. The best answer I have heard is that WE do not know the outcome of our choices, or our future, therefore we have free will. I don't buy this answer. To say that you and I have free will would suggest that God would be surprised or disapointed by our choices, which would also suggest that he is not all knowing, which means that he is not perfect, which means that he is not God. Your question is one of many paradoxes found in faith and the belief in God. Any answer that you get, regardless of how good or thought out that it is, is only the opinion or interpretation of someone else.

reply to post by adjensen


Pre-knowledge of events is causally related to pre-destination. If future events are pre-determined, then there is NO such thing as free-will. Of course, soft-determinism argues that the two can exist peacefully together, but that too poses some problems.

Check these out too:
instruct.westvalley.edu...
www.ovrlnd.com...

reply to post by kissy princess


Sorry, I'm an Arminian, not a Calvinist -- I don't accept pre-destination. God knows what you'll do, because he exists outside of time, so you've already done it, from his perspective. You don't choose to do it because you know what God has foreseen, and you need to conform to that knowledge.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

Any answer that you get, regardless of how good or thought out that it is, is only the opinion or interpretation of someone else.

This is a great statement, and, I believe, the absolute root of the "religion" kerfuffle, the world-wide theological problem. We have to either believe that someone was Divinely Inspired (because they said so), or that Creation itself says all there is to say.

reply to post by circuitsports

Flag and Star......

There is a general statement that once something is known it cannot be unknown and that seems to be true. So if this all powerful all knowing being is out there that set all things in motion and knew the outcome of all things through history, essentially before it even started.

Then how can he have given us free choice?

It's one thing to say that you can choose to be good or bad, gay or straight, poor or rich. But with this idea of a all seeing all knowing god your really just along for the ride.

Quite. As I understand it (with the capacity afforded by my fragile, mortal existence),
we, prior to physical birth, confer with the spiritual realm to determine which lessons we have not "learned through living."
(Life, in my view, is a series of classes"degree", like a diploma, or an associate's, or bachelor's.....we pass through several "grades" [lifetimes] before graduating to reunion with the Divine.)

So, yes, GOD knows what will happen, but WE DON'T. We, once living in a human body, don't remember the objective of -- or the assignment to the syllabus of -- the lesson that we agreed to learn.

Kind of a "benevolent care-provider".......like if your kid (or brother or whatever) is going to work or school, and you ask them, "Do you have enough gas to get there?" And they tell you, "Well, the little gas-station pump light is on in my car, but I bet I have enough". Now, you know they will run out of gas, but you ALLOW THEM to try it out. If you had said, "Tsk. You'll run out of gaAAsss!" They'd have responded, " What Ev Er."

So, instead, you say: "Well, okay then, go ahead....see ya! Be careful, and call me if you need anything! Love you!"

reply to post by kissy princess

One approach to solving this problem is called Open Theism, & professes that God cannot have certain and absolute knowledge about the future of human free-choice, only she may have guesses based upon probability, as the future remains to be written. Of course, this conflicts with some doctrines in various religions, and it is argued that Open Theism limits Gods capabilities, when by definition, God is limitless. However, this limitation is based upon logical considerations that arguably, do not limit the nature of such a being. For instance, it is impossible to make a circle with four corners - yet are we to believe that God can accomplish a feat? Certainly not, as sch a being is in fact, limited by laws of logic - i.e., she cannot make a married bachelor.

This is great, kissy princess!

I hadn't heard of Open Theism, and I, for one, appreciate your input to the forum.

My only comparison to god is a super advanced piece of technology like a computer with endless power that can pre calculate to such an extent that it's no longer probability but fact - god can I assume work down to the subatomic level. Actually the force of gravity is his force of gravity.

The idea of choice as random probability and so forth still boils down to this why did god create theft in the first place? just to see how many humans are fallible? He already knows the answer.

Also the thought of a god and choosing your sexuality is relevant here and shouldn't be dismissed. I may have yearnings to rob a bank or eat to much that doesn't mean I will choose to do either. I have a sister whose gay but the first time and every time after she was with a woman was her choice. I am happy she is happy but that still doesn't change the fact that lifestyle is her choice.

But why even give her that choice? It would have been much easier to make it in no way pleasurable for two women to be together like many other animals.

Basically the thing I am trying to boil down to here is either there is an all powerful all knowing god or there's not - Trying to explain vagaries that by there nature are over our head is more of a disproof than a proof.

As far as I can tell about the hand of god it's extra sensory perception. The Native Americans claim it comes from the long hair and other people from other methods but I think spidey sense is real after many years of evolution.

Which then boils down to what is religion if not just the golden rule - do onto others as you would have them do unto you. Which is another aspect that I think evolution has taught us as a means of survival in groups.

reply to post by circuitsports


Imagine God also transcends space and time. It would be easy to see how people could be given free will yet God would be able to see the outcome of those choices by observing them. If God transcends space and time he would know instantaneously since God would not be bound by time and space like we are. I think of time as a circle and not linear so a beginning and end would only be the completion of one large cycle, life death and start again(Alpha and Omega) Add in parallel universes and I am of the opinion this means God is experimenting with the different rules of the universe and all possibilities. If there is no God then this entire universe would violate it's own laws. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. So where did it come from? It had to come from outside of this universe possibly outside our dimension, and that would also mean the energy was outside of space and time.

We are living in a finite reality. The God(s) exist in an infinite reality. There are also infinite reality streams in which we can manifest our humanity. However, God(s) exists in all reality streams in the same way. It's as if God(s) operates a movie theater. We are chosing which future we would like, or what movie we are going to watch. God(s) or the owner of the movie theater would know what was going on in all of the theaters. He/She/They could walk in and check on us in each of the movies etc etc. etc. I know I'm only kind of making sense, but maybe you see my point?

Because god knows what each person's free will is going to choose?

Just a guess though. But not a bad one for an atheist, if I do say so myself.

Dear circussports,

Your question was a sincere one and worthy of a a dignified answer. Since reading through the replies I could find none that did God justice or used the scripture to answer it please allow me to take the time to share with you what scripture and God has to say on the matter.

It is true that there are Churches, in Christendom, that teach that God has known everything and predestined everything.Yet that teaching is not in the Bible, nor can you or anyone else cite a scripture that teaches that notion.

In fact part of the statement you yourself made in your OP is quite mistaken. That being that God is light and darkness. Notice what God says about himself:

(Revelation 22:5) . . .Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them. . .

This scripture in Revelation is a deep one and to explain it in detail would take much time. But briefly, this explains that the 144,000 who are sealed of God from among humankind and are resurrected into immortal spirit bodies in the likeness of God himself will reside forever with him. God, since he is an unending source of light will himself shine upon them, and they will never be in darkness, for there is no darkness with Jehovah ever. His very presence, if we could liken it to physical things, which we cannot, but imagine being in the presence of a star a million times brighter than our sun perpetually, then we can only being to glimpse the majestic dignity and splendor of the true God. No indeed, there is no darkness that resides with Jehovah God.

Jehovah is God. You cannot put a limit to what he can and cannot do. Humans limit his ability to think to that of ourselves. Some imagine, and thus teach, that since God has the ability to know all things, yes indeed he can tell them out many thousands of years before they happen, that must mean he knows everything.

Yet the scripture teaches us quite well that God can choose not to know something.

Let me give you an example. When Sodom and Gomorrah was at a point where it was worthy of destruction, did Jehovah automatically say he knew how degraded they were? No. Notice that he sent his angels to see whether or not the report about the place was true:

(Genesis 18:20, 21) . . .Consequently Jehovah said: “The cry of complaint about Sod′om and Go·mor′rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. 21 I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.”


Jehovah can choose to tell in advance when and how something will happen. And he has the ability and the knowledge to make it come about. But does that necessarily mean that he chooses to know how everyone will react when he has given us freewill? No. He set Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. He did not foreknow they would sin, he also did not foreknow that Satan was going to sin either. Yet they did.

It was not God's fault that his free moral agents whom he had created with imputed righteousness rebelled against his Sovereignty.

If God himself foreknew all such things, then indeed he would be the source and cause of all wickedness, and we know he is not. Also, if God had predestined everyone why would he give everyone the opportunity to repent? If he already knew who would and who would not? That makes no sense:

(Acts 17:30) . . .True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.

And if one has no choice in the matter, and God already foreknew how they would turn out, how can he give each of us the choice to make:

(Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) . . .I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days. . .


The path is set before us. Life and death, good and bad, the blessing and the malediction. If you wish to live then you must choose life, by loving Jehovah God and listening to HIS voice.

Predestination is a God dishonoring doctrine that is not found in the Bible. Yet Jehovah has his witnesses that defend his good name and are teaching truth to all meek-like individuals who are hungering and thristying for truth.

If you would like more information on the truth about what the Bible really teaches please feel free to u2u me or visit the website in my signature.

Originally posted by circuitsports
This inst a post to advocate or dispel the notion of God. It's a simple question that I am curious to see what peoples answers are.

In after school bible study many years ago along with trips to church and in the general arena there is this notion of god.

He is the one true god. The beginning and end and all things in between. The alpha and the omega. The all powerful, all knowing. The light and the dark. And so on and so forth.

There is a general statement that once something is known it cannot be unknown and that seems to be true. So if this all powerful all knowing being is out there that set all things in motion and knew the outcome of all things through history, essentially before it even started.

Then how can he have given us free choice?

It's one thing to say that you can choose to be good or bad, gay or straight, poor or rich. But with this idea of a all seeing all knowing god your really just along for the ride.

...because, everything you could be doing right now (based on FREE WILL) is known by God...
...what you do, is a function of your FREE WILL and choice...

The concept of predestination married within a FREE CHOICE/WILL...

Obviously you cannot do all of the things you could be choosing, as they would conflict with each other...so, you choose ONE...this choice raises new choices, and collapses others at the point at which you choose them...

Not a very hard concept to understand if you do away with the ridiculous philosophising of it...

A99

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by circuitsports
Then how can he have given us free choice?

Because pre-knowledge isn't pre-destination. Let's say that you have an opportunity to steal a loaf of bread. God knows whether you'll do it or not, but you don't do it based on that knowledge -- he just knows the decision that you'll make, but it's still your decision. If God knows, before that fact that you stole the bread, it means that you'll decide, of your own free will, to steal it.

It's one thing to say that you can choose to be good or bad, gay or straight, poor or rich. But with this idea of a all seeing all knowing god your really just along for the ride.

People don't "choose to be gay or straight".

stealing is WRONG period ....it PRODUCES BAD KARMA

Originally posted by obnoxiouschick

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by circuitsports
Then how can he have given us free choice?

Because pre-knowledge isn't pre-destination. Let's say that you have an opportunity to steal a loaf of bread. God knows whether you'll do it or not, but you don't do it based on that knowledge -- he just knows the decision that you'll make, but it's still your decision. If God knows, before that fact that you stole the bread, it means that you'll decide, of your own free will, to steal it.

It's one thing to say that you can choose to be good or bad, gay or straight, poor or rich. But with this idea of a all seeing all knowing god your really just along for the ride.

People don't "choose to be gay or straight".

stealing is WRONG period ....it PRODUCES BAD KARMA

So does letting your children die of hunger!
Some don't have a choice, some are so poor they can't buy food.

Originally posted by chasingbrahman
Because god knows what each person's free will is going to choose?

Just a guess though. But not a bad one for an atheist, if I do say so myself.

Good show, CB, I'll play along too. Maybe a god knows all possible outcomes, but we choose a specific one.