Stories of Jesus in Islamic tradition., page 7

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

How about you simply answer the question I have asked you now 6 times. Why won't you answer?

I already did answer here

You must have missed it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

The OP has a respectful portrayal of Isa, not Jesus. The two are not one and the same.

Muslims believe Jesus was born of a virgin... that he was the messiah and will return to slay the anti-christ and rule the world. The only difference is that Muslims don't believe Jesus was divine.

No. There are many differences. They deny His divinity and they deny His sacrifice. Remove those two and Jesus is just a prophet. You deny all the important aspects of Christianity. You deny what the Bible says about Him.

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by Aesir26

---

A hypothetical:

If a Muslim met Jesus, he would invite Him into his home, feed Him and give Him lodging.
If a Jew met Jesus, they would have Him either stoned, thrown off a cliff, or crucified.

All original Christians were Jews. Your argument has just been shown to be a lie. If Jesus came to Mecca and taught Islam was false and Mohammad was not a prophet they would kill Him. If Jesus went to Israel and told them He was the Son of God and the only way to Heaven He would not be killed today.

Not sure where you hear the lies you have been taught.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

They deny His divinity and they deny His sacrifice.

Thats because there's plenty in the bible itself that shows Jesus was not divine.
And you are confusing an execution procedure with a "sacrifice".

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Actually followers of Judaism believe Jesus was a prophet. You clearly enjoy being lied to.

LOL, what?

Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history. Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.

en.wikipedia.org...'s_view_of_Jesus

Awesome. Wikipedia can't be wrong can it?
religion.blogs.cnn.com...
I know Jews, I know Rabbis. They tell me Jesus was 100% not the Messiah, but he was a prophet. Not all Jews might feel that way of course.

Tell me. What happens if Jesus goes to Mecca and starts preaching Mohammad is a false prophet? What is His life expectancy?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

How about you simply answer the question I have asked you now 6 times. Why won't you answer?

I already did answer here

You must have missed it.

That link that does not go to a post of yours. Copy and paste your answer please. I have looked at all your posts, you have never answered it.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

If Jesus came to Mecca and taught Islam was false and Mohammad was not a prophet they would kill Him.

Except Jesus wouldn't do that.

Islam is of God and Mohammad is a true prophet.

Go read Isaiah 42. It is a prophetic chapter that foretells a certain "servant of God" operating in Kedar and the wilderness (Arabia)... a prophet who would shame idolaters... and establish the worship of God. Those prophecies were fulfilled ONLY by Mohammad.... who destroyed the idols and defeated the idolaters to establish a religion that recognized Jesus as Messiah.

Christians can deny this all they want. But no Israelite prophet or Christian apostle achieved this.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

They deny His divinity and they deny His sacrifice.

Thats because there's plenty in the bible itself that shows Jesus was not divine.
And you are confusing an execution procedure with a "sacrifice".

Show me the verses that show He was not divine. I showed you verses that PROVE He was. I showed you verses that PROVE Jesus' death was a sin sacrifice according to the Bible. Show me verses. Thanks.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

I know Jews, I know Rabbis. They tell me Jesus was 100% not the Messiah, but he was a prophet. Not all Jews might feel that way of course.

Then those Jews are an exception.
The overwhelming majority of Jews hate Jesus... its a well known fact that you are desperately trying to deny.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Your question is:

"Why should anyone disregard Biblical Jesus which has enormous historical authenticity, for Islamic Jesus which has zero historical authenticity?"

Islam regards "Allah", as the One and the Merciful God Most High.
This is the God of Abraham and Melchizedek. This is the Heavenly Father of whom Jesus preached.

Judaism (Judaea) worships Yahweh, the storm god of the Law. He is also called Marduk/Dios/Zeus/Jupiter/Jove/Set/Teshub...

You see, this is the source of words such as, "justice", and "judge". Why do you think the sheriff's office has the Star of David as its symbol? Latin "jus" means "law". It was originally written and pronounced, "ius", or "jews" before the letter "j" was created in the 17th century. In Old Norse, "ius" or "jews" was "ostr", which is "Ishtar", consort of Yahweh.

Proto-Hebrew is Phoenician and modern Hebrew is Aramaic which is the language of Babylon.
When the Jews were "captives" of Babylon, they strayed from El Elyon and became worshippers of the gods of Babylon. This is what the book of Esther is all about: Ishtar and Marduk, not Esther and Mordecai.

Early Christianity was grafted onto Judaism to perpetuate the Yahwism of Judaea and Rome (YHWH = JOVE)
Before that, Isa יעשו represented the tribes of Esau/Ishmael devoted to El Elyon, NOT the god of Jacob (whose name means "Heel-Catcher/Biter", son of Rebekah, "The Ensarer"). Astrologically, Jacob is the Serpens Caput, or "Head of the Serpent" crushed under the heel of Bootes. This is the etymology of "Children of a Lesser God", who is the YHWH of Mt. Zion/Mt. (C)hermon, Sumer's Kur-gal, place of the fall of Satan/Iblis.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Show me the verses that show He was not divine. I showed you verses that PROVE He was.

Go through the list of my threads in my profile. I've covered this subject several times in the past here on ATS.

I showed you verses that PROVE Jesus' death was a sin sacrifice according to the Bible. Show me verses. Thanks.

"Sin sacrifices", like the animal sacrifices of the OT, are always carried out by priests using consecrated items...and are dedicated to God.

Jesus' "sin sacrifice" was carried out by Roman soldiers using torture instruments and was dedicated to nobody. So we can see it was not a "sin sacrifice".

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
As earlier accounts have been found it has strengthened the position of historical authenticity.

No, they haven't. I think you missed the part where I said "earliest existing New Testament text". There are NONE older than Papyrus 52. If you have one, I'm sure Biblical historians would be very interested in seeing it.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
How "authentic" is two centuries as far as ancient texts go? Is it common to have texts written within two centuries of the event? How about other ancient works? How many copies do we have? How many years separate the oldest surviving copy from the original work for other ancient works?

Just to clarify, I said the fragment was dated from the 2nd century, not two centuries later. Generally, when you have several dozen unconnected and unrelated authors who write about a specific event, where the writing isn't copied from another source or derived from another source, you can make a general claim as to its authenticity. Sometimes the communities in which the the text was written have rich and vibrant oral traditions from which the text is derived (such as some of the Buddhist and Hindu and OT scriptures), so you can probably give it a little more weight. Christianity had no such oral traditions.

Since more than any "stories" about Jesus you are talking more about a THEOLOGY of Jesus (describing him as some sort of man-god that got himself killed to fulfil some sort of prophecy requirement sacrifice), that all doesn't really apply, though. There were MANY varying and conflicting theologies about Jesus, which were only really solidified and unified/corrected into one (generally) major one 300 years after his death, not through any scholarly research or investigation, but rather through propaganda campaigns and the backing of a pagan king with political undertones.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

If Jesus came to Mecca and taught Islam was false and Mohammad was not a prophet they would kill Him.

Except Jesus wouldn't do that.

Islam is of God and Mohammad is a true prophet.

Go read Isaiah 42. It is a prophetic chapter that foretells a certain "servant of God" operating in Kedar and the wilderness (Arabia)... a prophet who would shame idolaters... and establish the worship of God. Those prophecies were fulfilled ONLY by Mohammad.... who destroyed the idols and defeated the idolaters to establish a religion that recognized Jesus as Messiah.

Christians can deny this all they want. But no Israelite prophet or Christian apostle achieved this.

Isa wouldn't, Jesus would. Mohammad denied Jesus. My response was to someone who claims to be a Christian, meaning they accept Jesus' divinity and His death on the cross. That means they accept Mohammad lied about Jesus. That means they accept Mohammad must not be a prophet. Anything else and they are not a Christian.
Mat 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Tell me, why should we deny Biblical Jesus in favor of Islamic Jesus? You can't seem to answer that question, yet you expect people to do it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

I know Jews, I know Rabbis. They tell me Jesus was 100% not the Messiah, but he was a prophet. Not all Jews might feel that way of course.

Then those Jews are an exception.
The overwhelming majority of Jews hate Jesus... its a well known fact that you are desperately trying to deny.

I will go with your assertion, they hate Him. If Jesus came preaching he was God today, in Israel, He would not be killed.

If Jesus came preaching the same in Mecca, saying Mohammad was not a prophet, He would be killed. End of story.

reply to post by Aesir26

---

Christian Jesus. Sacrified on the cross. Was Divine (God in the flesh)

Islam Jesus. Was saved on the cross he did not die. Was not Divine, simply a man.

Which of those two do you believe?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Show me the verses that show He was not divine. I showed you verses that PROVE He was.

Go through the list of my threads in my profile. I've covered this subject several times in the past here on ATS.

I showed you verses that PROVE Jesus' death was a sin sacrifice according to the Bible. Show me verses. Thanks.

"Sin sacrifices", like the animal sacrifices of the OT, are always carried out by priests using consecrated items...and are dedicated to God.

Jesus' "sin sacrifice" was carried out by Roman soldiers using torture instruments and was dedicated to nobody. So we can see it was not a "sin sacrifice".

You have given zero verses and have only offered your opinion. I listed verses that specificially state Jesus death was a sin sacrifice. How do you rectify that?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Tell me, why should we deny Biblical Jesus in favor of Islamic Jesus? You can't seem to answer that question,

I already did.

The answer is right there on the previous page. You say the link doesn't work and you don't seem to want to read through the posts here

Here's what I said : I'm not asking anybody to ignore the Biblical Jesus. The purpose of the OP was to broaden ones understanding of Jesus' character by also taking into account Islamic traditions on Jesus.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Show me the verses that show He was not divine. I showed you verses that PROVE He was.

Go through the list of my threads in my profile. I've covered this subject several times in the past here on ATS.

I showed you verses that PROVE Jesus' death was a sin sacrifice according to the Bible. Show me verses. Thanks.

"Sin sacrifices", like the animal sacrifices of the OT, are always carried out by priests using consecrated items...and are dedicated to God.

Jesus' "sin sacrifice" was carried out by Roman soldiers using torture instruments and was dedicated to nobody. So we can see it was not a "sin sacrifice".

1Cr 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance [fn]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Pe 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Explain those verses. Do not wiggle, do not ignore it, explain it.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

You have given zero verses and have only offered your opinion. I listed verses that specificially state Jesus death was a sin sacrifice. How do you rectify that?

Should I post the entire account of Jesus' arrest, trial, torture and execution....for you to understand Jesus was 'killed' via execution....and that it was not a "sacrifice"?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

---

Tell me, why should we deny Biblical Jesus in favor of Islamic Jesus? You can't seem to answer that question,

I already did.

The answer is right there on the previous page. You say the link doesn't work and you don't seem to want to read through the posts here

Here's what I said : I'm not asking anybody to ignore the Biblical Jesus. The purpose of the OP was to broaden ones understanding of Jesus' character by also taking into account Islamic traditions on Jesus.

Biblical Jesus is Divine and died on the cross.

Islamic Jesus is neither.

To accept what you say a person must discount the Bible. So why should a person do that? You refuse to answer.

Is it possible for an atheist parent to not force the same belief on their children?
  Posted 4 days ago with 12 member flags

At 80 years old, this woman painted what is believed to be the real face of Jesus Christ.
  Posted 19 days ago with 9 member flags

Belief in God/Jesus through Personal experiences.
  Posted 18 days ago with 9 member flags

What was God doing before "In the beginning"?
  Posted 14 days ago with 9 member flags

Stay Out Of HELL.
  Posted 12 days ago with 9 member flags

Do Christians really want to Start World War 3?
  Posted 3 days ago with 9 member flags

My Hopeful Reintroduction to God
  Posted 17 days ago with 8 member flags

If every Christian would love God, no one will starve around the world!
  Posted 15 days ago with 7 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: