Stories of Jesus in Islamic tradition.

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

777 is the numerical value of σταυρός, "the cross-piece carried by criminals en route to crucifixion, to be connected to the xulon". The cross we bear; the cross that must be borne. It is a grave condition, being borne into sin: it is a matter of atomic/Adamic creatures in bondage to the physical world.

The cross itself is a 2-dimensional representation of a cube (carbon; 666).
It is also 666 as χξς: χ "cross/wound"; ξ xulon/pole,beam; ς "stigma/serpent".

777 also symbolizes the nitrogen atom. Its associated element is fire.
Out of this comes the icon of the burning cross.

Welcome the proverbial test of fire:

"Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (xulon)". (Gal 3:13)
ἐπικατάρατος πᾶς ὁ κρεμάμενος ἐπὶ ξύλου·

"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Mat 3:10-12)

John the Baptist is our first birth into the world; Jesus Christ is our rebirth from it.

“I have come to set fire to the earth, and I only wish it were already burning.” (Luke 12:49)

"He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." (Rev 2:11)

The Anglo-Saxon Futharc character, "Nyd", pronounced, "Need" (and meaning "need") is the sign of the cross: ᚾ
It means "perseverance through hardship", "victory over the world of lack".

As in spiritual alchemy, through purification (fire) we sublimate our carnal selves and return to Spirit.
We sacrifice this world for the next.

Jesus ('a) said: "The love of this world and the next cannot come together in the heart of a believer, like water and fire in a single vessel." (Bihar al-anwar, xiv, 327)
One of the evils of this world is that the next world is not attained except by abandoning this one. So pass through this world without making it your home, and know that the root of all wrong is the love of this world. (Bihar al-anwar, xiv, 327)


This is the mystery of the cross.

edit on 10-12-2012 by Aesir26 because: (no reason given)

Super interesting. Have you heard this parable from the OT?

Judges 9:15

“The thornbush said to the trees, ‘If you really want to anoint me king over you, come and take refuge in my shade; but if not, then let fire come out of the thornbush and consume the cedars of Lebanon!’

The thornbush is what made the crown on Jesus head. The fire was in the middle of that crown of thorns and in the middle of the burning bush with Moses. This is Jesus telling the political system in Israel to seek the correct authority. This goes along with what you are saying.

Also, on the topic of 666. Carbon has 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. Nitrogen, as you state, has 777. Oxygen has 888, which is Jesus number in Greek Gematria. The breath of God overcomes the mark of the beast in mankind. The Word is the sWord that we use to overcome the mark. Ultimately, the mark is selfishness. Notice the 18 markers of selfishness, the word mark used in the introduction and the division of 18 6+6+6.


2 Timothy 3:2-4

“For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents (6), unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control (6), brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (6).

Interesting. There are so many levels of connection. Like you show, desire and selfishness are ultimately the fruit of pride. Pride is what the Shepherd cuts away as the wool is pulled over our eyes. Our sin is the washed white as snow (like the wool) and given back to us as a new robe.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I like this Jesus better than the one from the Bible. His dialogue makes more sense and doesn't feel disjointed from everyday feasibility, like the command to pluck out one's eye to avoid a wandering gaze does.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Christians have only misinterpreted their Bibles to conclude that Jesus is God Himself. .

More like .. Muslims really dont' want Jesus to be God Incarnate because, if it's true, that means the whole Muslim religion is based on error. So Muslims go around saying that Christians have 'misinterpreted' the bible. It makes the Muslims feel better. They think they know the bible better than Christians and Christian churches that have been around for 2,000 years.

Jesus is God Incarnate. The bible and the vast majority of the Christian churches say so.
Islam, which was invented HUNDREDS of years after Christ, denies this.

The Qur'an is NOT an accurate account of the life of Christ. It's just a story that Muhammad poorly translated from what he heard from the Jews and Christians of his time.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus did not teach anything about the trinity, him being God and him dying for the sins of mankind etc. Just because Christians extract a certain meaning out of the bible, doesn't mean Jesus said those words.

I'm not here to argue or debate, but just to shed a point of view. I'm not sure why the trinity caught on so much or where it came from, but I'm thinking it originated from the Godhead (depending on which translation you read) in which Paul spoke of in Colossians.

I want you to know how much I have agonized for you and for the church at Laodicea, and for many other believers who have never met me personally. 2 I want them to be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have complete confidence that they understand God’s mysterious plan, which is Christ himself. 3 In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 I am telling you this so no one will deceive you with well-crafted arguments. 5 For though I am far away from you, my heart is with you. And I rejoice that you are living as you should and that your faith in Christ is strong.

6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.

8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers[a] of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.[c] 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.

13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed[d] the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

Source: Coloassians 2:1-13 (emphasis mine on verse 9)

Sorry mods if I quoted too much text, but I wanted to capture the full context of who Paul was speaking to, so I believe this is where the idea of the Trinity came from. There are more mentions of the Godhead in Acts 17:29, and Romans 1:19 - 20...

This could probably be another thread in itself, about Paul's and/or the Bible canon processes' motive.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If we need to understand what kind of person Jesus was, it makes sense to study his own words as preserved in the Bible and in Islamic tradition.

Jesus own words are in the bible only. They were recorded there by his followers themselves. Those that actually knew Him. Those who knew His mother and took down what she said about his life (see Luke). There are NONE of 'Jesus own words' in the Qu'ran. None. What is written there is filtered through Muhammad .. stories he took from the Jews and Christians, and he reworked them to fit his own invented religion. To get to know Jesus, the ONLY place to find Him is in the four gospels of the bible. Right at the first source. No where else.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Actually, Jesus himself did not say many of the things that Christians believe today.

Actually, Christians know scripture and Jesus a heck of a lot better than someone who is Islamic and gets his 'Jesus info' from the Qur'an .. the Qur'an which isn't a primary source of information about Christ .. the Qu'ran which was invented HUNDREDS OF YEARS after Christ ... and none of the information in the Qur'an came from anyone who knew Christ or knew his Apostles (unlike the gospels of the bible which came from primary sources .. the apostles and their students and MARY the Mother of God herself).

I think I'll go ahead a write a book about Muhammad.

It's been hundreds of years since he's been around.
No one who knew him is around to ask questions about Muhammad.
I haven't spoken to anyone who learned directly from Muhammad.
I haven't spoken to any of his numerous wives.
I haven't spoken to any of his relatives or their decendants.

But I want to invent a new religion so I'm going to write about Muhammad.

I think I'll take the stories that are around in the Quran now .. add to them .. subtract from them .. and even add a bunch of new stories that I think may have happened. What the heck ... why not? It'll get people's attention and they'll want more. So I'll make up even more stories. And I think I'm going to have these stories make Muhammad look very different from what the Quran says. A whole different guy.

I'm going to tell people that God told me these stories about Muhammad and that they are true .. and that the Quran stories are incomplete .. and that my book of stories is much more accurate than the Quran. I'm going to tell people to ignore the fact that it's been HUNDREDS OF YEARS since Muhammad was around .. I'm going to tell people to ignore the fact that I haven't spoken to anyone who actually knew Muhammad .. I"m going to tell people to ignore the fact that none of these stories that I'm writing can be proven as true even though I claim that God told me to write them.

I'll charge $25 per copy. Put it out for sale in the book stores.
Then I'll invite you all to join my new religion based on the book I just wrote.

Would you people buy this book of mine? No?? Why not?
My book wouldn't be believable at all ... would it?

That's exactly how the Quran stories of Jesus came about.
And that's exactly how reliable the Quran stories of Jesus are.

Same/same

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Christians have only misinterpreted their Bibles to conclude that Jesus is God Himself. .

More like .. Muslims really dont' want Jesus to be God Incarnate because, if it's true, that means the whole Muslim religion is based on error. So Muslims go around saying that Christians have 'misinterpreted' the bible. It makes the Muslims feel better. They think they know the bible better than Christians and Christian churches that have been around for 2,000 years.

Jesus is God Incarnate. The bible and the vast majority of the Christian churches say so.
Islam, which was invented HUNDREDS of years after Christ, denies this.

The Qur'an is NOT an accurate account of the life of Christ. It's just a story that Muhammad poorly translated from what he heard from the Jews and Christians of his time.

I hate to break it to you but the bible is hardly an accurate account of Jesus. Simply because the bible was written well after his death and the bible has been rewritten many times over the years unlike the Qur'an. Not to mention the people who somehow got it into their heads that Jesus is God because Jesus never said pray to me before you pray to God.

I'm sorry. I hold no religion but every time I hear someone argue Islam over Christianity, I imagine Muhammad slaughtering other humans for Mecca (in defense though....). I'm sorry turning the other cheek is far more appealing to me, even if it is based on a lie. Now continue your debate

Everyone is the son of God.

If you believe in "one God" -- who created you ultimatley?

Jesus talked the way he did because he understood that. Christians just have it all mixed up. If anything, reading what Jesus has said in the NT of the Bible, he sounds more Buddhist/Taoist than modern day Christians.

There has been speculation that the actual man "Jesus" may have traveled to India and been exposed to Hindu and other Eastern religions prior to his re-emergence in the NT. For me personally, this would explain many of the concepts he was trying to convey to his neanderthal-minded friends.

He basically had to dumb it all down, and mix it in with the Abrahamic tradition for them to even catch a slight understanding of the passive, peace-loving, compassionate message he was trying to convey.

Jesus was so ahead of his time in regards to religion, that his followers tried their best and ultimatley failed in keeping his message on point.

And BTW,

If Jesus were to magically time travel to today and learn what horrors have been done in his name through Christianity and Islam -- he'd probably beg to be crucified.

If I turned on Pat Robertson for 10 minutes he'd probably be begging to be sent back to his own time. If I showed him what the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were about he'd probably have a heart attack.

Both of these religions have been so hijacked away from their initial meanings of peace and love to your fellow man by powerful people. Even in this thread we have people arguing back and forth.

I don't think the real historical Jesus would want that

reply to post by buster2010


I wouldn't be surprised if everything in the New Testament was a well-intentioned fabrication based on a real-life spiritual teacher who had several devoted followers and was killed for supposedly being a nuisance.
It was written a very long time ago... who knows? The biggest available validation of its truth is that it contains the statement that it is true, which isn't enough. The books themselves were handpicked into the Bible we know of today. History can't be trusted with written information.

reply to post by Deetermined

So, did Jesus ever say that he was coming back to live another 40 years on earth before he dies or was that purely conjecture on Muhammad's part?

Much like Christians rely on OT prophets for prophecies on Jesus... Muslims rely on Mohammad.

God also told us that repentance through prayer wouldn't have been possible without Christ dying first. That's why there used to be animal sacrifices before Christ's death.

God never demanded human sacrifices.... and Jesus' "death" was a barbaric Roman style execution.... not a "sacrifice" to God. Besides God never asked for a human sacrifice.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Jesus own words are in the bible only. They were recorded there by his followers themselves.

This is debatable.

For example...all of Jesus' followers were fast asleep when he was praying in the garden before his arrest. There were no witnesses around... and yet the account is written from a third person perspective.

Another example is during Jesus' encounter with Satan. Again there was nobody around... and yet the account is from a third person perspective.

Jesus' life in the bible sounds like a narration of a story. The unknown writers of the gospels have simply pieced together what they believed happened and compiled a sequence of events... several years AFTER Jesus' "death". So the odds of mistakes and fabrications appearing in the final account are enormous.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


That is wrong. Both Allah and God are the same deity and both the Jesus in Islam and the Jesus in Christianity are the same person. Both religions are a continuation of a much older religion.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I think I'll take the stories that are around in the Quran now .. add to them .. subtract from them .. and even add a bunch of new stories that I think may have happened. What the heck ... why not? It'll get people's attention and they'll want more. So I'll make up even more stories. And I think I'm going to have these stories make Muhammad look very different from what the Quran says. A whole different guy.

This is pretty much exactly how the New Testament was written. Jesus was made into a whole different guy.

The people putting together the final canon of the bible didn't even proof-read it to check for contradictions. Which is why Judas dies in 2 different ways.... the "resurrection" scenes are all varying....and one gospel has an account of zombies while not being mentioned in the other gospels.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Nice. Then Islam validates christianity.

Okay.

People should worship how they please, regardless. As long as their beliefs don't interfere with the beliefs of others.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

Just to clarify a little,

For example...all of Jesus' followers were fast asleep when he was praying in the garden before his arrest. There were no witnesses around... and yet the account is written from a third person perspective.

Actually, Matthew said that all of the "disciples" were in the garden, but only three fell asleep. And there's always the question of whether the women were counted as "disciples"

Another example is during Jesus' encounter with Satan. Again there was nobody around... and yet the account is from a third person perspective.

The story is in Matthew 4. There is no indication that He was alone.

Jesus' life in the bible sounds like a narration of a story.

Perhaps a modern story, but that style of realistic reporting in a work of fiction or myth had never been used before. It's hard to believe that a new school of literature was invented by the Apostles.

The unknown writers of the gospels have simply pieced together what they believed happened and compiled a sequence of events... several years AFTER Jesus' "death".

True, one portion of one of the chapters at the end of a Gospel (I forget which) is the subject of debate over whether it was written by the named author. There is, however, the vast majority of scholarly opinion behind the idea that we do know who wrote them.

As far as what they "believed" happened? Three were written by people who saw the events. Luke's was written after investigation and interviews. Sure, they believed it, because they saw it.

Several years after Jesus' death? They could hardly have been written before Jesus' death, could they? And will you throw out every history that was written years after the event? In that case, we have to throw out Mohammed, whose first biography was written about a century after his death.

With respect,
Charles1952

So the odds of mistakes and fabrications appearing in the final account are enormous.

reply to post by Deetermined

Edit to add: Oops, Sorry! I forgot that you live in Iran and may not have access to a Bible or the online version.

I do have access to bible and I had Persian version of each one.

Oops , you seemed misinformed once again and you wanted to drive this to political argument.

Please , don't play like all knowing man.

First , investigate.
Then comment with even a little knowledge.

And I should use this again.

Do you want me to follow you and your way of self-righteousness ?

Do you want me to ruin this thread like you did ?

I don't know Jesus much but I do know he knew much more than you know and he wasn't a bit selfish as you are.

reply to post by MystikMushroom

Jesus talked the way he did because he understood that. Christians just have it all mixed up. If anything, reading what Jesus has said in the NT of the Bible, he sounds more Buddhist/Taoist than modern day Christians.

Those wolves want people to shut up while they decide to take over their lands and honor.

I better say that they are much trying to change Islam ,too.

They have told the Iraqi government to omit Jihad part of their religious books.

They want to take over anywhere they want.

And that is where Jihad tells Muslims to defend themselves.

IMO , there is not much true Christian in west or they wouldn't attack middle east while their prophet tells them to be peaceful and love another humans.

And the people who come to argue about Christianity are using it as a tool for mass control. They don't believe in it.

But there are exceptions everywhere.

I haven't seen any here.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
Well it is nice of you to post that, but no Christian will care much about words attributed to Jesus in Islamic tradition. Yahweh and Allah are not the same being. In order to accept the Jesus of Islam one must deny the Jesus of the Bible. The two are mutually exclusive.

Your statement is invalid. It is very important to understand and accept all cultures and religions whether you agree with it or not. Do the Muslim not worship one creator ? Do the Jews not worship one as well and the Christians ? We all speak of the same creator of the old testament but our language have called him different names. I think its time we stop separating ourselves from eachother and dividing, instead we should be uniting, coming together to realize there is only but one creator and we are all invited to be his instruments of peace!