Stories of Jesus in Islamic tradition.

reply to post by Deetermined

Fail. The Bible says that Jesus will return to judge the earth. We all know he isn't returning peacefully, which is why it talks about his peaceful nature here on earth and then waiting a long time before unleashing wrath. You only want to separate the verses. You're not looking at them from a whole.

I am looking at it as a whole because I believe it was fulfilled as a whole.

You are trying to break the chapter into little bits... saying the first few verses point towards Jesus.... and that Jesus will fulfill the later parts of the chapter after he returns.

Isaiah 42 has already been fulfilled as a whole by Mohammad.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The whole chapter points to Jesus and the wrath of God at Jesus' second coming, when Israel as a nation of people will be close to extinction.

You fail to recognize that the last few verses of Isaiah 42 says that everything that will be done is due to Israel's disobedience. The only part that Muhammad plays in this is the role of the adversary to try and wipe out Israel. It's part of the prophecy, but we know that Muhammad's goal ultimately fails. Muhammad was NOT sent from God as a prophet, but an ADVERSARY to accomplish his will.

If that isn't obvious from what we see going on in the Middle East today, you're blind.

reply to post by Aesir26

Yahweh is Marduk/Lucifer.

Do you hear yourself? Yahweh is not Lucifer (Helel). If he was, then Isaiah 14 is a story of Yahweh throwing himself down into the pit. How much sense does that make?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


Mohammad doesn't contradict the bible.
He, like the prophets and Jesus maintained that God is One and only God is to be worshipped.

The prophets and Jesus maintained that Jesus died in order to pave the way to heaven. So, yes, Muhammad contradicts the Bible.

It is the religion of Christianity have contradicted the Bible, with their ideas about God being a trinity / Jesus being God / God demanding a human sacrifice.

That's only your interpretation and we all know that you misinterpret scripture a lot.

And also you don't seem to want to address what I said earlier about Ishmael.

The Bible teaches us that Ishmael was named directly by the God of the Bible.... and that God was "with" Ishmael as he was growing up.

Yes, God promised to turn Ishmael into a great nation, but he didn't promise his descendants Abraham's inheritance.

Remember, Jesus appointed Judas as one of his disciples too, but Judas ended up betraying him.

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by Aesir26

 

In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations.

No, Yahweh was not associated with the Canaanite's version of El, even if they tried to claim he was. The Canaanite version claims that El and Asherah produced seventy children, but we all know what happened to the Canaanites in the Bible for continuing to worship Asherah.

Look up "Baal", "Ashtoreth" and "queen of heaven" in the Bible and what happened to the people who refused to quit worshiping them.

Question: "Who was Asherah?"

Answer: Asherah, or Ashtoreth, was the name of the chief female deity worshiped in ancient Syria, Phoenicia, and Canaan. The Phoenicians called her Astarte, the Assyrians worshiped her as Ishtar, and the Philistines had a temple of Asherah (1 Samuel 31:10). Because of Israel’s incomplete conquest of the land of Canaan, Asherah-worship survived and plagued Israel, starting as soon as Joshua was dead (Judges 2:13).

www.gotquestions.org...

reply to post by Deetermined

You fail to recognize that the last few verses of Isaiah 42 says that everything that will be done is due to Israel's disobedience.

The last few verses reveal that Israel was finished.
It was finished when it tried to kill Jesus, the messiah. It saw its ends at the hands of Romans very shortly after. The kingdom of God was then given to another nation...i.e - The nation of Ishmael. As Jesus said.

The only part that Muhammad plays in this is the role of the adversary to try and wipe out Israel. It's part of the prophecy, but we know that Muhammad's goal ultimately fails. Muhammad was NOT sent from God as a prophet, but an ADVERSARY to accomplish his will.

Mohammads role was to fulfill Isaiah 42. He did not try to wipe (the biblical) Israel.
If you feel Mohammads was not sent from God as a prophet, its your problem. We know he taught his followers that Jesus, an Israelite... was the messiah. If Mohammad was a false prophet he could have easily proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. Mohammad being an Ishmaelite taught his followers that an Israelite was the Messiah.

Theres no reason why someone who sought to wipe Israel out hail an Israelite as the Messiah.

reply to post by Deetermined

The prophets and Jesus maintained that Jesus died in order to pave the way to heaven.

The prophets never spoke of God demanding a human sacrifice.
So Christians are interpreting their scriptures the wrong way.

That's only your interpretation and we all know that you misinterpret scripture a lot.

I feel the same way about Christians and their misinterpretation of scripture.

Yes, God promised to turn Ishmael into a great nation, but he didn't promise his descendants Abraham's inheritance.

I know Jesus-loving Christians like to exalt Jesus-hating Jews over Jesus-praising Arab muslims..... but the truth is that Ishmael is included in Abrahams inheritance. Just count the number of Arabs over Jews.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Another problem is that the servant of God in Isaiah 42 had to be a warrior. (see verses 4 and 14) See its pretty easy to disqualify Jesus using your approach as well. I'm not saying I don't want it to be Jesus.... but all the clues point towards Mohammad.

Fail. The Bible says that Jesus will return to judge the earth. We all know he isn't returning peacefully, which is why it talks about his peaceful nature here on earth and then waiting a long time before unleashing wrath. You only want to separate the verses. You're not looking at them from a whole.

Isaiah 42:14

14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

"In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength." (Rev 1:16)
"From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations." (Rev 19:15)

Perhaps the Jews are still waiting for the coming of their Messiah-king to enslave the nations through pillage and war. However, Jesus the Nazarene, the Prince of Peace, already came. Jesus: messenger of the Lord of the Sabbath (rest), NOT of Lord Sabaoth (Lord of War).

The above verses in Revelation speak of the transformative power of the Word of God, not of the slaughter of innocents, Yahweh-style.


Yahweh, your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you. But Yahweh your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed. He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them. (Deu 7:22-24)

Jesus:
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Mat 5:43-44)

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

If Mohammad was a false prophet he could have easily proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. Mohammad being an Ishmaelite taught his followers that an Israelite was the Messiah.

LOL! Like Muhammad would have been able to convince anyone that he was the Messiah when he didn't even perform miracles. That's why he used Jesus to push his religion, while ignoring everything Jesus taught.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

The last few verses reveal that Israel was finished.
It was finished when it tried to kill Jesus, the messiah. It saw its ends at the hands of Romans very shortly after. The kingdom of God was then given to another nation...i.e - The nation of Ishmael. As Jesus said.

NOT. The story doesn't end in Isaiah 42. It continues on in Isaiah 43.

Isaiah 43:1-2

1 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

You might try reading the rest of it sometime to see what happened.

reply to post by Deetermined

LOL! Like Muhammad would have been able to convince anyone that he was the Messiah when he didn't even perform miracles. That's why he used Jesus to push his religion, while ignoring everything Jesus taught.

LOL all you want.

Mohammad, with his status as a successful Ishmaelite military commander could have easily enforced a religion that taught he or some Ishmaelite was the Messiah. Instead he preached a religion which stated that an Israelite, Jesus is the Messiah...and recognized the prophets of Israel.

reply to post by Aesir26

Yahweh, your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you. But Yahweh your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed. He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them. (Deu 7:22-24)

Jesus: You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Mat 5:43-44)

That's right. Jesus told them not to worry about it. Yahweh (God) already told them that he would take care of it for them. See where it says that God will throw the other nations into great confusion until they are destroyed? What do we see in the Middle East today? Muslims are killing Muslims and neighbors are rising up against neighbors. Israel doesn't need to do a thing.

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus told them not to worry about it because God would take care of it for them.

So Jesus was not God then?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Aesir26

 

Yahweh is Marduk/Lucifer.

Do you hear yourself? Yahweh is not Lucifer (Helel). If he was, then Isaiah 14 is a story of Yahweh throwing himself down into the pit. How much sense does that make?

The Old Testament we are familiar with today is the Masoretic version with a Talmudic spin.
Significant alterations were made:

The assumed emendations are of four general types:

1) Removal of unseemly expressions used in reference to God; e.g., the substitution of ("to bless") for ("to curse") in certain passages.

2) Safeguarding of the Tetragrammaton; e.g. substitution of "Elohim" for "YHVH" in some passages.

3) Removal of application of the names of pagan gods, e.g. the change of the name "Ishbaal" to "Ishbosheth."

4) Safeguarding the unity of divine worship at Jerusalem.

(Wikipedia)

The Masoretes wrote mainly in Aramaic, which is officially Babylonian.
Most importantly, the name, "Yahweh", was deliberately inserted in place of, "El Elyon" or "Elohim", to attribute dominion to a lower djinn/demiurge.

On a completely different topic, today I have just learned of the violent and terrifying deaths of dozens of small schoolchildren by a gunman in Connecticut. I will not, therefore, be able to continue rallying back and forth debating you for a while, at least. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity of expressing my faith in the Heavenly Father of Jesus Christ.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


That's not what I said, now is it? Do I need to put a comma in there or make two separate sentences again to keep you from twisting what I'm saying again? I don't need to explain this to you again, because we both already know what the answer is going to be.

reply to post by Deetermined

That's not what I said, now is it?

Re-read your post.
You said in your reply to Aesir26 : "Jesus told them not to worry about it because God would take care of it for them."
Don't you believe that Jesus is God himself, or am I confusing you with another poster?

Its relevant because Isaiah 42 refers to a servant of God. If you believe Jesus was God, then how can you believe that the servant mentioned in Isaiah was God?

reply to post by Aesir26

El Elyon, El and Yahweh are three different entities.

No, El Elyon and El are titles. Yahveh is his name. El means THE just like in Spanish, but the word THE can also be Ha. El comes from the Ugaritic peoples, thats what they called the Most High. Yahveh means "behold the nail, behold the hand" or "behold the nailed hand" alluding to Jesus being God, even within the name of Yahveh.

Yahweh is Mars/Marduk/Tyr/Taranis the fallen tyrant who rebels against El Elyon:

Incorrect. Jesus is the Light-bearer, he even says so himself. Lucifer is not a name it's a misnomer and a title. It comes from the latin word Lux which means Light and Ferre which means Bringer.

Isaiah hints at Satan's real name in Isaiah 14:12 "Lucifer O son of morning". Hebrew days begin at night, so their mornings are at dusk when the moon begins to rise, the son or "sun" of the morning would be the moon. In hebrew "Lucifer O son of morning" translates as "Heylel ben Shachar" which means "crescent moon and star". The moon does not emit the Light, it can only pretend to be the Light. The true Lightbringer is Jesus.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

Satan's real name in hebrew is Heylel ben Shachar, or in arabic Hilal bin Sahar. So he is Heylel/Hilal.

Now you can correctly read Isaiah 14:12-21

Thus the people of the Crescent moon and star would be:

Islam.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

In hebrew "Lucifer O son of morning" translates as "Heylel ben Shachar" which means "crescent moon and star".

You mean in the Hebrew as understood by the youtube prophets who you follow?

the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12. This word, transliterated hêlēl or heylel, occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means "shining one, morning star, Lucifer"

Wiki

Then there is this link

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

So just how did "shining one, morning star" turn into "Crescent moon and star"?
Yes, yes... I know the crescent moon 'shines' at night, but its not the original meaning of the word in question.

I recall you said you became Christian rather recently... and I know you are simply parroting ideas that you see on some Christian fundamentalists website. Be warned that such people let their agendas affect their thinking... so they resort to distorting the very meaning of words (among other tactics) to achieve their ends.

Now you can correctly read Isaiah 14:12-21
Thus the people of the Crescent moon and star would be:
Islam.

Nope. Your very premise that the word means "crescent moon and star" has been shown to be a fabrication.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So just how did "shining one, morning star" turn into "Crescent moon and star"? Yes, yes... I know the crescent moon 'shines' at night, but its not the original meaning of the word in question.

The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate, which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer, meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus" (or, as an adjective, "light-bringing"). The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος (heōsphoros), a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.Kaufmann Kohler says that the Greek Septuagint translation is "Phosphoros".

en.wikipedia.org...

Now, if we move to the Greek translation being "Phosphoros", we have...

Phosphorus (Greek Φωσφόρος Phōsphoros), a name meaning "Light-Bringer", is the Morning Star, the planet Venus in its morning appearance. Φαοσφόρος (Phaosphoros) and Φαεσφόρος (Phaesphoros) are forms of the same name in some Greek dialects.

Another Greek name for the Morning Star is Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphoros), which means "Dawn-Bringer".

en.wikipedia.org...(morning_star)


When we move on to "Venus", we have...

The morning star is an appearance of the planet Venus, an inferior planet, meaning that its orbit lies between that of the Earth and the Sun. Depending on the orbital locations of both Venus and Earth, it can be seen in the eastern morning sky for an hour or so before the Sun rises and dims it, or in the western evening sky for an hour or so after the Sun sets, when Venus itself then sets. It is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon, outshining the planets Saturn and Jupiter but, while these rise high in the sky, Venus never does. This may lie behind myths about deities associated with the morning star proudly striving for the highest place among the gods and being cast down.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...(morning_star)

Moving on to "Star and Crescent"...

Use in antiquity

Ancient Near East The star and crescent appear in combination in finds from in and around ancient Palestine. It has been associated with the Moabites (14th or early 13th – 6th century BC), as the symbol or symbols appear on what are thought to be Moabite name seals. Crescents appearing together with a star or stars are a common feature of Sumerian iconography, the crescent usually being associated with the moon god Sin (Nanna to the Sumerians) and the star (often identified as Venus) with Ishtar (Inanna to the Sumerians)

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You mean in the Hebrew as understood by the youtube prophets who you follow?

No, i mean the Masoretic Text translated from ancient aramaic/hebrew.

Here's a rendition of it from the orthodox jewish bible:

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from Shomayim, O Heilel Ben Shachar (Bright One of the Dawn, Day Star, Lucifer)! How art thou cast down to the earth, thou, which hast laid low the Goyim!

So just how did "shining one, morning star" turn into "Crescent moon and star"?
Yes, yes... I know the crescent moon 'shines' at night, but its not the original meaning of the word in question.

DUH! I told you before, hebrew days begin at night with the rising of the moon, so does Venus which was then thought to be a star. Here, this should look familiar to you. "Crescent moon and star" comes from Strong's concordance, and the arabic word "Hilal" is associated with the crescent moon.

I recall you said you became Christian rather recently... and I know you are simply parroting ideas that you see on some Christian fundamentalists website.

Cute. I got my ideas from actually reading the bible and reading it correctly in context, you should try it sometime, maybe then you wouldn't get everything wrong but i dunno, thats a bit of stretch hoping for that.

Jethro (father-in-law of Moses) was Midian and he worshipped the moon, but he gave it up for the God of Moses. Midia is modern day Saudi Arabia. Guess what city was in Midian back then? Mecca. Care to guess what the supreme deity was of the Quraysh tribe Muhammad was born into? Hu'bal and the Ka'aba was primarily used for him. You see, Muhammad thought he was being clever, playing he part of Abraham who smashed the idols of his father Terah to follow after only one God. All he did was copycat in his grand design to be a "great" father like Abraham, except he left one Idol to Hu'bal because that was his Al-Ilah, his Allah.