Stories of Jesus in Islamic tradition., page 13

"to put away sin by the sacrifice of him 'self'."

reply to post by Deetermined

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We can all put away sin by the sacrifice of our "self". Jesus was pure and without sin because he sacrificed his "self' long before he sacrificed his body. His body is not his "self". And Jesus dying on the cross did not make all those people born after him Perfectly pure and innocent whether they are "Christians" or not. Im pretty sure Hitler lived after-death but was not free of sin. But had Hitler given up his ego and therefore all his prejudices and hateand desire for worldly power then he also would have become like Jesus. Hitler is the example of an ego taken to the extreme. Jesus is the example of an ego-less human(not "I" but "thou"). Jesus worked tirelessly through his life to help people overcome their false "selves" and the idea that he is something you can never be is the greatest blasphemy possible because all he wanted was for all of us to "get on my level".

reply to post by JDmOKI

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Well... that's what happened. otherwise they were taxed into submission. I'm just stating I don't think Jesus would have gathered troops to retake Jerusalem from the Romans, it would go against everything he taught.

Jesus was following orders from God. Which is why he didn't gather troops to retake Jerusalem from the Romans. However, the bible teaches that Jesus will return to make war and establish his rule.

I just don't understand why Islam calls Jesus the messiah, yet Muhammad lived by the sword. isn't that contradictory?

A lot of biblical prophets "lived by the sword".... for the sake of doing Gods work.
Islam calling Jesus the messiah has no bearing on Mohammad being a warrior prophet.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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Ok. So God didn't want Jesus to make war and taught ultimate pacifism to the masses. While Muhammad was told to rally an army and take Mecca. Still sounds like conflict of interests or am I just ignorant?

I'm really trying not to attack Islam. I just wanna know what the Muslims perspective is on that subject

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

It isn't. Jesus never set foot into Kedar and Jesus never shamed the idolaters of Kedar.

Isaiah 42 refers to a non-Israelite prophet.... who shamed the idolaters of Kedar and the wilderness, i.e - Arabia. The entire chapter is about the transformation of the lives of people who lived in the darkness of idolatry.

Let's look at that verse again...

Isaiah 42:11

11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

First of all, this is referring to the Kedarites (the Tribe of Kedar), but who are the Kedarites? They are a scattered tribe, but "the inhabitants of the rock" are the ones who will be singing and they are not the Kedarites.

Who are the Kedarites?

en.wikipedia.org...


Who are the "inhabitants of the rock"?

So the verse in 2 Kings 14 shows us first and foremost that Selah is a place that existed then and exists now. We call it today the rock walled city of Petra, located in Jordan. Selah (Sela) is also mentioned multiple times in the book of Isaiah:

"Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion. For it shall be, [that], as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, [so] the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon." Isaiah 16:1,2

"Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up [their voice], the villages [that] Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains." Isaiah 42:11

What's fascinating about the passage in Isaiah 42:11 is that it refers to the people of Selah as the "inhabitants of the rock". Obadiah also mentions a civilization that lives in the rocks in the Land of Edom. Selah Petra was the capital of Edom:

If you read Psalm 87 and Psalm 120, you can tell that the Kedarites are inhabiting Selah along with the Kehorites. And it's the Kehorites who are singing.

www.bible-history.com...


Where is this "rock walled city of Petra" otherwise known as Selah (Sela)?

www.spiegel.de...

reply to post by JDmOKI

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Ok. So God didn't want Jesus to make war and taught ultimate pacifism to the masses. While Muhammad was told to rally an army and take Mecca. Still sounds like conflict of interests or am I just ignorant?

God uses His prophets the way He wills.

reply to post by Deetermined

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First of all, this is referring to the Kedarites (the Tribe of Kedar), but who are the Kedarites? They are a scattered tribe, but "the inhabitants of the rock" are the ones who will be singing and they are not the Kedarites.

Kedar was one of the 12 sons of Ishmael, son of Abraham. Mohammad himself was a descendant of Kedar.

As for the "inhabitants of the rock", it could refers to the people called Thamud of ancient Arabia... a people who were known for carving homes out of rocks.








And remember when He made you successors after the 'Aad and settled you in the land, (and) you take for yourselves palaces from its plains and carve from the mountains, homes. Then remember the favors of Allah and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."
-Qur'an 7:74

reply to post by Deetermined

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The Thamud weren't the inhabitants of "the rock",

It sure looks like they were inhabiting rocks.

nor were they singers

How would you know? Do you have a time travel machine?

The people of Thamud were one of the places that God destroyed for their wickedness.
The Koran reveals the people of Thamud were among the ranks of Sodom and Gomorrah. Which is why they were destroyed.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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Just read the link on the Korahites to know who they were and who they were related to.

Here's an additional link...

The Korahites in the Bible were that portion of the Kohathites that descended from Korah.

They were an important branch of the singers of the Kohathite division (2 Chronicles 20:19).

There are twelve psalms (Psalms 42; 43; 44; 45; 46; 47; 48; 49; 84; 85; 87; 88) composed by the sons of Korah.

en.wikipedia.org...

Question: "Who were the sons of Korah in the Old Testament?"

Answer: The story of the sons of Korah in the Old Testament is truly a tale of two fathers and two destinies. The story begins with the Israelites of Moses’ time as they journeyed through the wilderness just after leaving Egypt. In Numbers Chapter 3, God set aside the Levites, out of the tribes of Israel, for full time service to Him. They were ordained to take care of the tabernacle and all of its implements, as well as the Ark of the Covenant. Only the descendants of Moses and Aaron, however, were allowed to serve as priests.

www.gotquestions.org...

Do you need more?

reply to post by Deetermined

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And just what are you trying to prove with that bit about Korahites?

Its simple.
Isaiah 42 refers to a certain "servant of God" who made a difference in Kedar and the wilderness.... a land infested with idolatry and polytheism. This servant of God shamed the idolaters and established the worship of God over there.

Only Mohammad fulfilled this prophecy as no Israelite prophet had anything to do with that land.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

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And just what are you trying to prove with that bit about Korahites?

Its simple.
Isaiah 42 refers to a certain "servant of God" who made a difference in Kedar and the wilderness.... a land infested with idolatry and polytheism. This servant of God shamed the idolaters and established the worship of God over there.

Only Mohammad fulfilled this prophecy as no Israelite prophet had anything to do with that land.

That's not true. First of all, we've already established the fact that the location being talked about was in Jordan, which used to be a part of Judah. Look at the map again that I posted earlier on Petra.

David then began fighting wars against Israel’s neighbors on the east bank of the Jordan. He defeated the Moabites, the Edomites, the Ammonites and the Arameans. These wars began as defensive wars, but ended with the establishment of a Davidic empire that extended over both sides of the Jordan River, as far as the Mediterranean Sea. David enforced justice in his empire and established civil and military administrations in Jerusalem, modeled after those of the Canaanites and Egyptians. He divided the country into twelve districts, each with its own civil, military and religious institutions. He also established Jerusalem as the secular and religious center of the country. Each district paid taxes to Jerusalem and the people began to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem each year on the holidays of Passover, Shavout and Sukkot.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

So, the truth is, the Isaiah 42 prophecy was fulfilled before Muhammad came along.

David (Hebrew: דָּוִד, דָּוִיד, Modern David Tiberian Dāwîḏ; ISO 259-3 Dawid; Arabic: داود‎ Dāwūd; Strong's: Daveed) according to the Hebrew Bible, was the second king of the United Kingdom of Israel and, according to the New Testament Gospels of Matthew and Luke an ancestor of Jesus.

His life is conventionally dated to c. 1040–970 BCE, his reign over Judah c. 1010–1002 BCE,[1] and his reign over the United Kingdom of Israel c. 1002–970 BCE.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

More regarding the Kedarites as mentioned in Isaiah 42:11...

The Kedarites were another nomadic Arabic people, just like their cousins, the Nabataeans. They occupied the desert regions of eastern Syria and present day Jordan, on the edge of the Levant.

www.historyfiles.co.uk...

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Matthew 26:24

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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The Christians merely co-existed with the polytheists and the idolaters.

It was only Mohammad, who through force, destroyed the idols and established a religion that worshipped the God of Abraham and recognized Jesus as messiah

Jesus never commanded us to convert by the sword. He commanded to preach the word to all the world and for those who did not their own sins would judge them.

Wheat and tares.

There were 2 camps during his ministry. One camp wanted to kill him, because he exposed their hypocrisy and wickedness, the other camp wanted to take him by force and make him be king so they could destroy Rome. But you can't take the kingdom of heaven by violence.

reply to post by Deetermined

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First of all, we've already established the fact that the location being talked about was in Jordan, which used to be a part of Judah.

Kedar and the wilderness are NOT in Jordan.

The locations mentioned in Isaiah 42.... "Kedar and the wilderness" are a DIRECT reference to a son of Ishmael... and the wilderness that Ishmael was sent to. Therefore its much more likely that the "inhabitants of the rock" are the people in Arabia who used to carved houses out of mountains (thamud), like in the pictures I posted. Besides Arabia is well within biblical territory... Mt Sinai was in Arabia. So it shouldn't be surprising that God raised a prophet in Arabia.

As for David, he had NOTHING to do with "Kedar and the wilderness" and had nothing to do with the idolaters of that region.

Even if the location include Jordan, it doesn't matter... because Jordan became a Muslim region shortly after Islam appeared, so the prophecy gets fulfilled through Islam anyway. Today it is 90% muslim.... no wait, the entire middle east is 90% muslim. It can only mean that Islam was the religion that was raised in Arabia as mentioned in Isaiah 42. Islam was God's will for the Middle East. Not Judaism or Christianity.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

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Jesus never commanded us to convert by the sword. He commanded to preach the word to all the world and for those who did not their own sins would judge them.

All thats nice, but it proves that Jesus or Christians had nothing to do with the prophecy of Isaiah 42.

I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
-Isaiah 42


God indeed devoured and destroyed through Mohammad. That was his prophetic mission... to use force to decimate the polytheists and the idolaters.

And what happened after Mohammads victory? The people of Arabia gave up their idolatry and turned to the worship of the God of Abraham. They were led in paths that they had not known previously.


And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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God indeed devoured and destroyed through Mohammad. That was his prophetic mission... to use force to decimate the polytheists and the idolaters.

No, God did not destroy through Muhammad. God doesn't need a man to do his dirty work. Go look at Sodom and Gomorrah, they both still stand to this day as testiment that he doesn't need men to pass judgement for him. Israel was the chosen people because they were chosen to be the priests of the nations (gentiles) to offer up the sacrifice for all mankind's sins (Christ).

Did Jesus authorize Muhammad to murder nonbelivers? Nope, he didn't because those judgements are reserved for the final judgement at the end of his millenial reign. So how did Muhammad get from loving your eneimes and neighbors, taught by Messiah, to killing your eneimes and neighbors? Jesus never forced conversion.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

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No, God did not destroy through Muhammad. God doesn't need a man to do his dirty work. Go look at Sodom and Gomorrah, they both still stand to this day as testiment that he doesn't need men to pass judgement for him.

Mohammad was an agent of God, who works through His prophets.

Israel was the chosen people because they were chosen to be the priests of the nations (gentiles) to offer up the sacrifice for all mankind's sins (Christ).

As for Israel being the chosen people... their "chosenness" was only conditional. It depended on Israels obedience. And no nation in the bible has been warned of chastisement more than Israel.

Also it is INSANITY to think the Jews "killing" of Jesus was a fulfillment of priestly duty. Their intention was to kill him and silence him, not to make a ritual human sacrifice to God.... and here you are exalting the "killers" of Jesus?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

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Did Jesus authorize Muhammad to murder nonbelivers? Nope, he didn't because those judgements are reserved for the final judgement at the end of his millenial reign. So how did Muhammad get from loving your eneimes and neighbors, taught by Messiah, to killing your eneimes and neighbors? Jesus never forced conversion.

Since you believe Jesus is God... then do you also believe Jesus authorized the killing of women and babies, as we see in the OT?

The only enemies Mohammad killed were the enemies in battle and those who broke treaties. See, you can criticize Mohammad all you want. But you still need to deal with the fact that a lot of biblical prophets also used violence to get the job done. At least Mohammad laid down specific rules in battle sparing women, children, non-combatants etc. In the bible you see barbaric genocide, killing of women and infants and capturing of virgin girls by Israelite soldiers.

You sure you don't see something wrong with this?

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