Do Freemasons worship demons!? I used to think not. Then I read this.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
I missed that part where you provided evidence. Where did you answer my question?

It was right there, lucidly explained. If you do not understand the science it is not my problem.

I don't buy into the theory of evolution either.

Why am I not surprised?

To answer yours, I have more faith in God than science.

God created everything, including science. That is why understanding science is so important.

I do love brain theory whenever I read or hear about it. Same with string theory. Very interesting theories.

Brane, not brain. And you do know the difference between a theory and a scientific theory (model), right?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by NarrowGate
I missed that part where you provided evidence. Where did you answer my question?

It was right there, lucidly explained. If you do not understand the science it is not my problem.

I don't buy into the theory of evolution either.

Why am I not surprised?

To answer yours, I have more faith in God than science.

God created everything, including science. That is why understanding science is so important.

I do love brain theory whenever I read or hear about it. Same with string theory. Very interesting theories.

Brane, not brain. And you do know the difference between a theory and a scientific theory (model), right?

I edited and corrected before you posted. Nice try though.

You are being deceptive, I am ending the conversation. If you want proof of your deception, read our last two posts.

This conversation is over.

Get your insult out, and move on with life as you see fit.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
I edited and corrected before you posted. Nice try though.

If you edited and reposted prior my quote would not have had the original parsing.

You are being deceptive, I am ending the conversation. If you want proof of your deception, read our last two posts.

Why is it that whenever you are pressed to give a specific answer you resort to thinking people are 'deceptive'. The only person who appears deceptive would be the one unwilling to answer the question. You attempted to avoid the answer by posing a question to me without knowing I happen to enjoy physics, particularly theoretical physics, which I answered. Who is being deceptive?

I find it remarkable that you profess to be a devout Christian but resort to such childish and churlish behavior and refuse to answer questions posed to you on a DISCUSSION FORUM. If you did not want to have your easily riled sensiblities offended by such innocous questions why did you even join? You continue to make statements and pronouncements that you expect others to take as fact but are either unwilling or incapable of answering the specifics relating to said assertions. Perhaps you need to reassess why you are even here and whether you can handle even mild criticism of your unsubstantiated viewpoints.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I was saying nice try at insulting you funny man. You quoted and typed your response, and took the time to break down my post how you saw fit. While you were doing that, I was fixing a minor error.

To quote you "God created science". You are too proud.

Then you mock my beliefs and call me childish. I would not like to be you, in fact I would rather be a poor guy in a hut in Africa than think like you. You are obviously the one resorting to childish tactics. Anyone reading can see that if they apply logic. You are not reading, that much is obvious.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Gee, I thought you would ask me a hard question.

The theoretical particle for the tranference of the gravitational field is the gravition. A massless (similiar to a photon) spin-2 boson which would cause the properties of gravitation as a stress-energy tensor. This interaction between the spin-2 particle and the stress-energy tensor causes the graviational field which affects space-time on a localized level dependant upon the amount of gravitons present in said locality.

In String Theory (Supersymmetry) the fact that the graviton must be a closed string without end points would mean that it would not be bound to any particular 'brane' (see M-brane theory) and would be able to traverse between multiple branes. This bleeding of the gravitational energy between branes would also account for the rather weak properties of gravity itself, e.g. you ability to jump up while counteracting the earth's entire mass.

Now, now; the graviton is only one of several theorized ways of explaining gravity. Loop quantum gravity is another, and there are all sorts of other more exotic theories. My bet is that gravity is in fact not mediated by the graviton, but only further experimentation will show us the true nature of gravity. I digress, though: if original sin exists, it is in no way expressed in DNA. Let's move past this silliness.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
You are confused about some things here.

First, you are right we definitely can not understand or predict God's will unless He tells us.

God did not create demons. The reason I brought up Angels to him is because demons are simply fallen angels. If he believed in Angels, I would find it weird for him to not believe in the existence of demons. Their heirarchy is even described by the same terms - powers,virtues and so on.

Demons out of their own free will followed Satan and rebelled against God. They are now beyond redemption.

God created all things good. Now in our world (dimensions?), decay and death were brought in through a deception of Satan. He convinced Eve to take the fruit, and she gave it to Adam as well. Because of this disobedience to God, we are now accountable for original sin. This is passed on in our genetics.

God did not create a single evil. God = truth = love. Satan = lies = hate. Satan lies to create hate. God is Truth to create love.

I hope that helped clear that up for you.

It didn't. God created angels knowing that some would fall. God, after all, knows everything. Therefore, God created the conditions for evil. It's not a big jump from that point to say that God created evil. And why wouldn't he? We could not be saved if evil was never created. God doesn't make mistakes; he had a plan, and that plan included the existence of evil.

Originally posted by almadd2012

Originally posted by NarrowGate
You are confused about some things here.

First, you are right we definitely can not understand or predict God's will unless He tells us.

God did not create demons. The reason I brought up Angels to him is because demons are simply fallen angels. If he believed in Angels, I would find it weird for him to not believe in the existence of demons. Their heirarchy is even described by the same terms - powers,virtues and so on.

Demons out of their own free will followed Satan and rebelled against God. They are now beyond redemption.

God created all things good. Now in our world (dimensions?), decay and death were brought in through a deception of Satan. He convinced Eve to take the fruit, and she gave it to Adam as well. Because of this disobedience to God, we are now accountable for original sin. This is passed on in our genetics.

God did not create a single evil. God = truth = love. Satan = lies = hate. Satan lies to create hate. God is Truth to create love.

I hope that helped clear that up for you.

It didn't. God created angels knowing that some would fall. God, after all, knows everything. Therefore, God created the conditions for evil. It's not a big jump from that point to say that God created evil. And why wouldn't he? We could not be saved if evil was never created. God doesn't make mistakes; he had a plan, and that plan included the existence of evil.

I just didn't "like the way you put it". They still had free will. For us to talk about the semantics of it, we would have to exist in a way not limited by time like God does.

Since we are limited by time, we assume God is too. Not saying you do, but many do.

You are right God does not make mistakes. There is a reason one of his most intelligent and loved creations, an Angel He saw fit to make an Archangel, is now Satan.

My take on it? He wanted us to be tested. We are his children, to be made "like gods". Not like God though, as St. Michael would say "who is like God?".

We exist on the plane of time though. We can not understand certain mysteries until God reveals them to us. That is why I still say God did not create evil. God created the world, and saw that it was good.

He did not create "conditions" for evil though. In my opinion, he just gave the Angels a choice to serve. Those who would not rebelled.

I would submit that the fallen are a product of free-will that God would never violate, but that is not what God intended for them. They intended that for themselves. I do see what you are saying, like I said at this point we are saying the same thing and arguing over the wording.

Originally posted by almadd2012
Now, now; the graviton is only one of several theorized ways of explaining gravity.

True, but it is the leading candidate.

Loop quantum gravity is another, and there are all sorts of other more exotic theories.

I am very much familiar with Loop Quantum Gravity. Neonhaze who posts here occasionally (and is an Oxford Physics Professor) authored an excellent thread on the subject.

My bet is that gravity is in fact not mediated by the graviton, but only further experimentation will show us the true nature of gravity.

The experimentation required to determine this are quite aways off so in the interim we may have to experiment for gravitational waves as opposed to the graviton iteslf.

I digress, though: if original sin exists, it is in no way expressed in DNA. Let's move past this silliness.

I concur. However, be wary, some would say the Devil is behind your motives.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
I was saying nice try at insulting you funny man. You quoted and typed your response, and took the time to break down my post how you saw fit. While you were doing that, I was fixing a minor error.

Er, okay, whatever.

To quote you "God created science". You are too proud.

You left out the 'everything' part.

Then you mock my beliefs and call me childish.

I mock your inability to respond to simple questions and resorting to avoidance tactics as childish.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Now God created everything, pedophilia included, huh. Science is a term to describe curious humans trying to figure out that they are wrong again.

Oh I must be going crazy. I thought you were mocking my beliefs nearly every other post. Next you will say "provide quotes". My computer is very slow, so I do not enjoy digging up quotes that you know are there. I also do not slander people.

Please take the time to read and consider the rest of this post. It has nothing to do with what we were just discussing, it is actually far more urgent.

Want to prove what the character of Masonry is? I will show great respect for Masons for the rest of my life, and tell others to do so as well, if they will fix this situation. If they do not, I will be forced to do all I can and I live below the poverty line on top of that I have a family to take care of.

There are two ladies living together in Highland Park, MI (inside of Detroit look it up) along with one of their daughters and her grandfather. One of them is unable to eat anything, ever. She has a tube that drains her stomach's acid all day long. She has another tube to feed her.

The other has no legs and is literally stuck sitting in the same bed all day every day, and all night every night. She can not even afford a Catholic Parish Edition to read, and she is Catholic (I will be providing one next time I see her).

They have NO money, and my best-friend's (who is now dead; homicide I will provide link) sister is working two jobs and going to school to provide what is virtually their only income.

They have no cable , no laptop, no internet, no money, and virtually nothing coming to them for Christmas.

I spent over an hour talking to the one with no legs last time I was out there, and she is praying for a laptop and internet. A laptop and internet would literally change her entire life. I prayed for her and quoted some vital pieces of Scripture for her in this situation and wrote them down.

The one with the feeding tube and draining tube that can not eat - here is a link to how she lost her son. Take the time to read it this is not a joke. This is a human being asking you for help. wchbnewsdetroit.com... . They left out that he was holding the door for everyone to get in, and that is why he got hit. He just got an A on his math test, and was going to graduate. If you knew what he went through growing up in that neighborhood, you would know that this was the last thing anyone thought he would be doing - graduating and getting A's on math tests. You can imagine how his mother will be feeling this Christmas.

Now you might ask - why not give her the laptop I am on? Because it is so old and slow, and also requires an external keyboard. On top of that, I will need it to find a better job.

These people are my second family, and my families second family as well. If Masons fix this situation, I will not let anyone talk bad about them in my presence without me defending them with zeal, and I will likely try to join one day.

A priest has been by, but the Church is apparently unable to help right now.... Considering the area it is in, I am not surprised.

If I was a man with access to money and I was aware of people suffering like that I would not be idle. You are now aware of the situation.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by NarrowGate
There is no scientific law that you can see the effects of sin in DNA or that absolution of sin causes a change in DNA.

Then how can anyone honestly state that it is heriditary?

While we are at it, can you explain to me the exact mechanism that causes mass to generate gravity along with an explanation of exactly why and how gravity works?

Gee, I thought you would ask me a hard question.

The theoretical particle for the tranference of the gravitational field is the gravition......
In String Theory (Supersymmetry)......


Now that I have answered your question maybe you can have the common courtesy of answering mine.

edit on 12-12-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude is a beerless particle (Physics 101)

Hey I was reading back over this, and realized I got caught up thinking and taking care of the family to the extent that I did not point out the obvious.

You just said you can not honestly state something that is not scientific law. Then you provided me with a theory.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Now God created everything, pedophilia included, huh.

God created the Universe. Humans occupy the Universe. Humans do wrong to other humans.

God created everything, flawed human beings as well. The major issue is taking responsibility for your actions and not blaming them on others. Or demons.

Science is a term to describe curious humans trying to figure out that they are wrong again.

Just because you do not agree with science does not mean it is not accurate.

Next you will say "provide quotes". My computer is very slow, so I do not enjoy digging up quotes that you know are there.

We already know you cannot provide them due to their lack of existence.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
You just said you can not honestly state something that is not scientific law. Then you provided me with a theory.

I asked you earlier; do you know the difference between a scientific theory and a non-scientific theory? Do you understand the scientific process? If not, look it up. If you do you are again being intellectually disengenious.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
By then you and I will hopefully be in Heaven.

In your opinion, is heaven a place?

Who gets there?
Do animals?

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Since time is but a dimension of reality God created for us, God is not bound to time.

If God is not bound by time, then there would be no difference from the time that He created Angels to the time the angels fell. Since He exists in all times at once, creating Angels and the fall of Angels would have happened simultaneously (especially since eternity is involved).

Therefore, one might even argue that God created Demons, or equivalently, he created angels well knowing that one third would become demons. In that case, is there really a difference. (If I make batter, knowing it will become a cake, then we usually say that I have made the cake.)

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Also, sin and original sin are different.

Do you think a loving God would punish somebody for someone else's sins?

Especially considering that the punishment prescribed by the church for not ridding oneself of "original sin" is denial of entry into heaven for all eternity.

And that for an offense as minor as one lady picking an apple?

Does the bible not teach Mercy as a key virtue?
Why would God teach something but then not lead by example?

In my mind, the story smacks of allegory, since if it was literal, then God is surely a cruel, non-loving god.

reply to post by NarrowGate

Men who think they can understand God and all of His creation are sadly mistaken.

Wise words, however this is after all this is posted by the same poster

God did not create demons.

God did not create a single evil. God = truth = love. Satan = lies = hate. Satan lies to create hate. God is Truth to create love.

Why even begin to speak for what God created and didn't?

I will quote your wise words once more and hopefully you can practice what you preach

Men who think they can understand God and all of His creation are sadly mistaken.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

I missed that part where you provided evidence. Where did you answer my question? I don't buy into the theory of evolution either. I could theorize just about anything. I was looking for scientific evidence obviously, which you did not provide.

To answer yours, I have more faith in God than science.

I do love membrane theory whenever I read or hear about it. Same with string theory. Very interesting theories.

edit on 12-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)

First one must understand what scientific theory means and encompasses before one tries to speak as though they have knowledge of what they speak.

You say your looking for scientific evidence for a question asked to another poster in which they did provide in their own words yet you refuse back up your claims with scientific evidence which some have asked you to supply to at least make some us believe you know at least some of what your going on about.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

BTW, Satan has people in the Church in Africa working on his team. Those "deliverance" ministers that point out children and call them possessed and have them cast out - if I ever got my hands on one of those guys I would end his life with a quickness. You can take that literally. I mention that because if I remember right you posted that you are in Africa.

Those "deliverance" ministers are up in North Africa.

I'm in South Africa, which is a pretty Westernized country and we don't really have that gullibility in this country.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Now God created everything, pedophilia included, huh?

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of ALL THAT IS, seen and unseen....
.
..
Through him ALL THINGS were made. "

~ Source: Nicene Creed as published by the Vatican: www.vatican.va...

This is the profession of the Catholic faith, no?
You're a catholic, no?