Nelson Mandela 'proven' to be a member of the Communist Party after decades of denial`

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posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny

Keep telling yourself that man…..


But it's true. Your understanding of capitalism and socialism is what is confusing you.

Socialism IS self-reliance. Capitalism is reliance on private owners to give you a "job", reliance on the capitalist owner for your living. Without that it's reliance on the liberal state system.

With socialism the means of production would be available for all those who want to work. Those who work would own the means to produce and the product they produce. They would be responsible for the means to produce.
They would be completely free to produce for their needs and desires, with no social restrictions. A free association of producers, no longer restricted by private ownership of the means to produce.

So yeah you keep telling yourself a lie. In the words of John Lennon, "You think you're so classless and free, but your still peasant as far as I can see".




posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


You're not answering my question -- let's say that the workers at a Ford plant in Michigan decide that they want to own the means of production -- how are they going to manage that? What's the process of implementing your "worker's paradise"? (And the reason "people make comments like this" is because we've seen that what is promised is not only what is not delivered, it is, in fact, undeliverable.)

I have done my research, as well, over the years since taking a course in graduate school on the Soviet famines, and have come to different conclusions than you have. I am not driven by ideology, whitewashing the horrors of the past with a "oh, that wasn't true communism, and there's no reason to think that it couldn't be implemented in a fair fashion", because that's not what Marx and Engels taught, and simple common sense would tell a critical thinker that it's not true.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Why are you asking me those questions? This discussion has nothing to do with how I think it would work. There are many different ways, take your pick. We were simply discussing the meaning of terms in context with the OP.
You're just avoiding conceding to the correct definitions.

Start a thread if you want to ask socialists how it would work.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


I'm asking you these questions because of your claim that the pre-1921 Soviet Union was not communist, when it was, and that the horrors that are identified with Soviet collectivization are not endemic with such a system in general. If you want to claim that the tens of millions killed by Stalin and in the Cultural Revolution have nothing to do with economic despotism, you are welcome to explain how your communist world can come to exist without such behaviour.

The Communist Party of South Africa was a violent organization, which aimed to foment revolution in that country, was supported by the Soviet Union, and undoubtedly had the expectation that they would implement policies such as those in the Soviet Union, so these are all relevant questions, and your continued ducking of them isn't doing your argument any favours.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 09:44 PM
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Reply to post by adjensen
 


No, i'm not ignorant of history, don't be so pretentious.

I am fully aware of the devastation caused by communistic countries, but like a previous poster said, these countries were not really communistic. It seems you have fallen for your country's propaganda.

Like I said, and history isn't a good teacher since there has never been a real communistic society, that the ideology is good, it is just easily hijacked by people with evil intentions.

The ideology isn't evil, the people are. Communism isn't supposed to have a government or any sort of leader, it is slightly anarchistic in that ALL the citizens hold the power and work together for an easy, comfortable life. If you know a country that has ever been like that, then please let me know, because power ONLY in citizens hands is the way that it should always be.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Notice the date, 1908, before there were any so called "communist" countries
so, the Soviets employed Marx theories to usher in Communism, but, they aren't communists ?? how does that work, exactly ?

are you suggesting North Korea has been anything but communist? {since 1910 anyway} and if so, how would you describe their economy? (not politics)

and what about the Balkans and their 45yr communist rule ?

then of course, there's Slovenia and even Wiki notes ...

www.ask.com...
[color=amber]After nearly five decades of Communist rule, in June 1991, after the introduction of multi-party representative democracy, Slovenia became an independent country.[7] In 2004, it entered NATO and the European Union, in 2007 became the first former Communist country to join the Eurozone

so, are you suggesting that none of these Communist countries are/were actually Communist ??

or are you promoting some NEW ideology that supposedly has never been tried before ?
and, if it's never been tried before, why so persistent with a large group of ppl rather a smaller country first ?

wouldn't a proven track record enable a more welcoming reception?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 

you keep repeating the obvious but avoiding the necessary, why ?

i own plenty of "means to produce" and so do my neighbors ... what we cannot obtain (without serious restrictions) are the resources and that is what you fail to address.
it is also the reason you have yet to convince me that you even understand what you promote.

i actually support the "theory" ... however, the holes must be addressed and yet, they never are.

how do we obtain electricity ?
how do we obtain timber, steel and other resources necessary to produce anything ?
sure, Japan can produce lots of steel, but how would that help the US ?
sure, Indonesia can produce all kinds of computer parts but how will they get from point A to point B ??
who will disperse the "fuels" necessary ?? ppl are already clamoring we're gonna run out so who manages such a limited resource ?

these are serious economic questions.
if you or any other aren't willing to address them now, what makes you think it would be smooth sailing then ?



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by bobs_uruncle

Originally posted by blackcube
Your "legitime case" was priceless. In the apartheid era... sure...

When my country was under dictatorship... there were a lot of these legit cases too.
edit on 8/12/12 by blackcube because: (no reason given)


Are you in the US or Canada, because if you are I hate to tell you but the dictatorship hasn't left just yet.

BTW, if you haven't seen a necklacing "live" (I have) or you haven't seen the pipe bombs killing innocents (I have after the fact), then you really don't understand how bad mandela and his marxist buddies really are. The UN and IMF promoted a world view inversion and used financial extortion to get mandela released. Terrorists are now heroes, heroes are terrorists and every common citizen, a criminal.

Cheers - Dave


Came to this one realization not too long ago. Everything is ass backwards. We're living in times when evil is good and good is evil.



posted on Dec, 9 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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Mandela should have done what the US govt did after slaves where freed and absolutely stopped the lynching of blacks, thank God no blacks where discriminated against, harassed, refused employment or education etc. I mean even in the times of Mandela blacks in the US where just as equal and free from violence in the US, God bless democracy from the west it brings peace and prosperity where ever it goes.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by chishuppu
Mandela should have done what the US govt did after slaves where freed and absolutely stopped the lynching of blacks, thank God no blacks where discriminated against, harassed, refused employment or education etc. I mean even in the times of Mandela blacks in the US where just as equal and free from violence in the US, God bless democracy from the west it brings peace and prosperity where ever it goes.


You don't really have a good handle on what is and was going on in South Africa do you? Mandela was/is a terrorist. His organization, the ANC, is Marxist. Affirmative Action in South Africa means taking from the minority and giving to the majority which is backwards. Racism in South Africa is only punished if the alleged "crime" is white on anything else, race crimes like the farm murders literally go unpunished and they are all black on white. During the last days of apartheid from the early 80's to 1994, all of the "race" related laws were being dismantled, the last law, the right to vote was dismantled for the 1994 election. There is no democracy in South Africa, it is a totally corrupt Marxist state operating under the illusion of democracy. Most other countries and colonies are masquerading as democracies but are however feudal or corporate oligarchies, which is basically fascism. The US, which is supposed to be a republic is a fascist corporate oligarchy masquerading as a democracy. If you doubt what I say, look up the definition of fascism as coined by Mussolini and compare the recent voting frauds, the increase in "laws" and the increase in "state" powers while restricting rights.

Bringing democracy to a country is like issuing a premature death certificate, they're going through the motions but they're already dead. In my opinion, a republic in its purest state (with true separation of powers that cannot be usurped by some corporate puppet) seems the only real option for a cooperative and sustainable society, but the US (our only real model) has been hijacked by the corporate/banking oligarchy and is now (last 40 years or so) being refered to as democracy.

Cheers - Steve
edit on 12/10.2012 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by Merriman Weir
 


What exactly does a curriculum and exams that cover reading, writing, arithmetic, and history, do to prevent the teachers from indoctrinating the students into a political ideology by the way they interpret the curriculum?

Forcing the teacher to teach a child that "such and such" happened in history does not have any affect on how that teacher frames that lesson in history. There is many ways they can frame the lesson that will still result in the child getting the answer right on the exam.

The only way you can know that your child won’t get indoctrinated in a “free school” is if you know the teacher that teaches you child. And you know that they are going to give lessons framed in a way that is not biased.

Indoctrination is not the information, and facts, it is the foundation that supports that information, and facts.


I was half way through writing a fuller response but then I realised there was no point as you're basically proving my point here. Apparently, American (and British schools) are indoctrinating school children into becoming socialists. Let's be charitable and say you're right. Why is this clever and sneaky indoctrination process failing? I ask this because very few (American) adults actually seem to know what socialism is - I see it on here on a daily basis. And that's after 4 years of Americans having to be corrected regarding Obama's supposed 'socialist' status.

So what's happening? At what point are American school children taught about the ownership of the means of production, labour added value, mutualisation, co-operative movements, state and non-state theories outside of a capitalist paradigm and so on, only for American adults to forget all these concepts and have to resort to Fox-style definitions?

Why aren't socialists seeing the fruits of this super-secret indoctrination process? It's obviously not working as, like Britain, the USA is sliding into a right wing dystopia with increased wealth inequality, diminished social mobility (which is meant to be the carrot in capitalism's 'carrot and stick'), with governments at the beck and call of Big Business.

Seriously, this exists only in your mind.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny

As I have grown older, the reason they changed to the new curriculum makes sense to me now.



I'm sorry, but after reading your posts I'm having trouble believing that you are older than 13.

Try moving away from planet redneck for awhile, you might discover that the world is somewhat more complex than what Uncle Billy told you.

Capitalism IS the dominant ideology on the face of this planet, and as such, it's value system is taught in the vast majority of schools around the world. This is an indisputable fact, and arguing the contrary because some guy said "yeehaw its like tits own a hawg these new fangled teachers they is", doesn't mean
a) that you are right
b) that he was a good teacher

Your elected officials probably know about as much about socialism as you do.There is no international communist plot to "take erway yer freedom and yer guns". The cold war is over, please concentrate on hating the middle eastern terrorists now, like your "communist" governement/media/education wants you to.

Finally. The motto of this forum is "Deny Ignorance". Please try it sometime, instead of regurgitating the lukewarm Mc Carthyist trash that you were forcefed. And I''ll add this, just so you can have a think about it. I'm not a marxist, not by a far strech. Nevertheless, the discovery of your primitive and sadly misguided worldview is probably the most compelling pro-communist read I have ever had.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


There is no secret he is a socialist.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by domasio
Reply to post by adjensen
 


No, i'm not ignorant of history, don't be so pretentious.

I am fully aware of the devastation caused by communistic countries, but like a previous poster said, these countries were not really communistic. It seems you have fallen for your country's propaganda.


Let me introduce you to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, which you're making. Pre-1921 Soviet Union was communist, and post, it had mostly similar elements.


Communism isn't supposed to have a government or any sort of leader, it is slightly anarchistic in that ALL the citizens hold the power and work together for an easy, comfortable life.


Millions of years of evolution have produced a human nature that is inherently lazy (wanting to get by with expending the minimal effort) and greedy (taking what you can when it's available) instinctually, so until that changes, "from each according to him means, to each according to his needs" is delusional, as is your belief that "people will work together for an easy, comfortable life."



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Ismail
 


Dang, hit a nerve there, didn’t I?


The irony about your post is it shines a light on your own biases, perspectives, and world view, more than it does anything I said.

People always look at someone through a lens colored by their own opinions. And your diatribe told me volumes about you, and your world view.

That is one of the main reasons I hang around here. It gives me a look inside the twisted world that other people live in. I find it very refreshing.

Again, thanks for the post…


As they say, a worthless hick has got to do what a worthless hick has got to do….



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by Ismail
 


Dang, hit a nerve there, didn’t I?


Dude, the only thing you hit was the world record of not understanding anything about reality.

But please, by all means carry on *cough* thinking *cough* that the world is on the verge of being conquered by communist sixth graders who were indoctrinated by all those gubmint sponsored marxist teachers.

Meanwile, in the real world, a bunch of kids just died in Africa because they couldn't AFFORD food and medicine. Those commie masterminds at the IMF and the World Bank really need to start getting their sh*t together...



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 06:19 PM
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Reading this thread is like watching scientists try to explain quantum physics to tribesman in Papua New Guinea in English. They're obviously not getting it Anok
edit on 12/10/12 by Malynn because: I sucks at teh spellings.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Malynn
Reading this thread is like watching scientists try to explain quantum physics to tribesman in Papua New Guinea in English. They're obviously not getting it Anok


Well, he appears to have run off without answering my question regarding how this "worker's paradise" will be implemented. If I own a company that employs twenty people, how do you propose that my employees and I exchange ownership of my company so that they own the means of production?

Watching communist proponents squirm out of answering that very simple question (all you have to do is quote Marx, had you read him,) is like watching a sleazy politician when his feet are pressed to the fire.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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As he astutely pointed out this thread is not about how to implement socialism in society, is it? He was simply pointing out that you obviously are incapable of understanding that communism and socialism have never been implemented on this planet. In modern times, anyway.

Not having all the answers and plans bullet pointed for the conversion to socialism does not mean he is wrong. Because he isn't.



posted on Dec, 10 2012 @ 07:40 PM
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reply to post by Malynn
 


And as I "astutely" pointed out, the topic of this thread is the Communist Party of South Africa, and whether Nobel Peace Prize winner Nelson Mandela lied about being a member of a party that was affiliated with the Stalin regime, and whether they had the same motives and intentions that resulted in the death of millions in the Soviet Union.

To which he tried to claim that Soviet communism wasn't "true" communism, and I invited him to differentiate the two by explaining how "true" communism would come to being without the violence espoused by the Soviet and South African communist parties.

Yet here we sit, without an answer to that simple question, leading to the conclusion that your "true" communism is a fantasy, and what is closest to your ideal has been tried, and not merely failed, but failed in such a spectacular fashion that it took perhaps a hundred million living, breathing human beings with it.





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