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DSM 5: Changes to psychiatry manual: Problems in mental health

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posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 10:06 AM
reply to post by wildtimes

Ha. Fair enough.
I did read your post, I just see no difference in the end result. Which is mucking around in someone else's head.

I'm glad to hear you were able to extricate yourself from your ex. Many people are unable to get out of such situations.
I think I should be offended that you are comparing me to him. While I might share some similar traits, I do not use or manipulate people if I can avoid it.

As for my issues, they are only issues because I choose to let them be. But they are mine, and really have no bearing on this discussion.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 10:13 AM
reply to post by watchitburn

I think I should be offended that you are comparing me to him. While I might share some similar traits, I do not use or manipulate people if I can avoid it.

I don't mean to offend you. The only comparison between you and him was the attitude of why people seek counseling being "beyond you."

I don't know anything about you except the tiny bit you've offered up here publicly. What bothers me is the negative attitude toward the helping professions. If you had a tumor in your stomach and refused to see a medical professional on grounds of it's "beyond me why anyone would allow a doctor to check out your stomach tumor" I'd say the same thing.

I'm just trying to shed some light on how the mental health field works, and why it's just as valid a "healing art" as any other method, whether it's chiropractic, orthopedics, chemo-therapy, chakra-healing, accupuncture, whatever.....
there are myriad ways to treat every malady known to man.

Some work, some do not. But no one is going to label a tumor-patient with a "bad person!" diagnosis, and that's what some people try to do with the clients who seek out Behavioral and Mental Health practitioners. Being unhappy or confused or stuck is not "bad"; it just "is."

I hope you understand.

edit on 8-12-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:15 AM
Having been through the mental health system all I can say is talk to friends, family or trusted associates first. Once you enter treatment of any kind your liberty and freedom are at risk. Say the wrong thing and they can incarcerate you against your will, drug you without your permission and keep you as long as they see fit. Later you can be denied insurance, employment, the right to exercise the 2nd amendment and even vote.

I had written a much, much longer reply but suffice to say think hard about the above before voluntarily seeking treatment. Most of us have the power within our selves to change our way of thinking and feeling. Try helping yourself first is all I'm saying.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:19 AM
reply to post by Asktheanimals

Thanks for the reply. You mirror a lot of my thoughts on the issue. I nearly lost it when I was in the hospital and was told that I could not leave until the doctors said so.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:28 AM

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by watchitburn

This is paranoid thinking, friend.

No it's not, it's a fact that you cannot legally possess a firearm if you have been incarcerated against your will.
It's also a fact the government has used the mental health system as a political tool by incarcerating dissidents (USMC Brandon Raub being a recent example).
It's also true they did label obsessing about eating healthy foods as a disorder.

He's not lying and yet you apply the term paranoid without hesitation.
Is this what your training has done, automatically belittling others so you can deny facts if they conflict with your professional worldview?

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:36 AM

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by Asktheanimals

Thanks for the reply. You mirror a lot of my thoughts on the issue. I nearly lost it when I was in the hospital and was told that I could not leave until the doctors said so.

I was shocked when I discovered I had no legal recourse. I wondered what the hell happened to due process and the bill of rights. It doesn't exist so far as the mental health system is concerned. The antidepressants they gave out years ago were horrible - elavil, melaril - I felt like clawing my eyes out every waking moment.
It wasn't their treatment that helped me, it was my loss of freedom that helped me to gain the self-discipline necessary to show them "progress".

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:38 AM
reply to post by Asktheanimals

Is this what your training has done, automatically belittling others so you can deny facts if they conflict with your professional worldview?

What? I was responding to the accusation that the entire profession is some bizarre "control scheme".

I don't even know what to say to this allegation. Some people are dangerous. I didn't go around throwing people in the slammer and taking away their guns. Wow!

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:41 AM
reply to post by Asktheanimals

No it's not, it's a fact that you cannot legally possess a firearm if you have been incarcerated against your will.

Is anyone "incarcerated willfully"? You're talking about jail. We were discussing psychiatric hospitalization. Jeez, guess I struck a nerve....
I guess you don't want to understand the profession, either.

You say you were in the "system" "years ago." Things have changed, friend. The only people "hospitalized" against their will are those who tell a clinician they are homicial or suicidal, and those who are clearly out of touch with reality.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Years ago they used to treat mental illness with very harsh methods. As a student and intern, my agency toured the Glore Psychiatric Museum, and we were shown all the barbaric methods of treatment they used to use in the early-mid 1900s and before. Your claim is akin to saying if someone practices "Wicca" nowadays, they will be burned at the stake.

You also admit you learned how to control yourself by losing your freedom. That's good!

I used to work (even before I studied the profession) with kids with Severely disruptive behaviors...the lead teacher in the classroom would tell the kids:

"If you don't control yourself, others will control you."

Just sayin'.

edit on 8-12-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:45 AM
The pharmaceutical industry is a cash cow. They create new diagnoses to sell the new "fix it" pill. When the patents for the new pill expire, generics are introduced which results in a loss of money.

They then create a new pill with new patents for a new diagnoses. $$$$

Why do you think the DSM has grown so HUGE over the past two years?

The rate we hand out these pills is insane, we still do not know the long term side effects most of this "medicine" could have. I imagine it could have an effect on the evolution of our species as a whole.

The world around us can be hard at times, and I agree sometimes medicine might be necessary. I do not believe we should pass it out like candy the way we do. It is the persons choice to take it but it has been indoctrinated into our culture as the "normal" thing to do.

We even label kids as young as 2 with Bi Polar and send them off with a lifetime of medication and a new found label to attach them self with.

Sorry, personal subject for me.

Rant off.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 11:55 AM
reply to post by Asktheanimals

You know, ata, I don't mean to harp on this, but people need to realize we are no longer living "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" or "Girl, Interrupted."

I'm sorry you had a negative experience; millions of people did. The profession has changed, and continues to fine-tune itself. But, if you want to stick to your hostility, there's nothing I can do to change that except protest that you are being unfair and spreading fear. The DSM is a BILLING CODE MANUAL. That's all it is.

If there are stupid rules about treating former mental health clients like sub-humans, then it's on the insurance companies and the bureaucrats, NOT THE PRACTITIONERS.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 12:02 PM
AND!! And...
When I was practicing and finally came to the point of getting a license (so I could "hang out my own shingle"), I declined. Because I did not want some bureaucrat looking over my shoulder and telling me I couldn't go to a client's birthday party, or except an invitation to lunch.

They (THE BUREAUCRATS) wanted to put a wedge between the helper and the client, and pretend that the work could be done from some aloof, detached position. I am more concerned with building bridges.

When I told my boss that there was nothing he could do to stop me from casual get-togethers with people who enjoyed and appreciated my input, I was treated like a pariah.

But, I see there are lots of angry people who want to cast negative aspersions on the entire profession, and THAT is counterproductive.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 01:28 PM
reply to post by wildtimes

You seem to be getting quite the barrage here.
I think that we have a fundamental difference of opinion here.

I'm not saying that mental health professionals are not necessary, as there are definitely people who need help and counciling.
My problem is the over eagerness of people to seek treatment over every little thing. And the general willingness of those in the field to enable and encourage this behavior.

A line needs to be drawn somewhere, but I don't see that occurring anywhere on the horizon.

I am not angry or or hostile to the field of study.
But I would never try to quantify another person using some book or a few posts. It irritated me when others try do do it to me.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 01:51 PM
reply to post by watchitburn

"Fair enough" to you!
What I'm seeing in this thread is a necessity to separate the profession from the laws.

I don't know if you read my post about having declined to go for my license due to the fact that I didn't want bureaucrats breathing down my neck.

The issue with the DSM is that is was created for BILLING PURPOSES. It's the insurance industry that is to blame for the decisions made to exempt people with "prior issues" (what do they call it? Pre-existing conditions...yeah, that) from future coverage.

One of the bureaucratic issues worth looking at is government oversight of the profession. As I've explained, I chose not to go for my license. The Bureaucrats who "granted" the money for the youth group plan I had devised (and submitted as an application for a part of the funding they were accumulating through a voter-approved TAX - which was a mere fraction of a percent added to the state sales tax) said, "We will approve of your program. Here you go: the amount you requested is granted.

BUT! BUT, you are NOT to use this money to treat anything EXCEPT the drug/substance abuse problems the client is experiencing. If they want to talk about their recent divorce, or their job-loss, or the death of their child, you may only "charge us for the part of the session that talks about their drug use, and NOT CHARGE us for discussing the event or circumstance that CAUSED the drug/substance abuse."

Does that make sense? No, it doesn't. I presented to the Board of Directors at one of their meetings and said, "This is ridiculous. The fund is available only to treat the symptom, and not the real problem?"

The Chairman stood up and said, "I AGREE! There's no such thing as a happy junkie!" or something to that effect. At the time (10-11 years ago), the insurance companies and bureaucrats wanted to divide (with a crowbar) treatment for the SYMPTOM from treatment for the CAUSE. It was absurd, and REMAINS ABSURD!

Further, the agency used those funds I did get awarded for the program as I had written it; and on which "conditions" the grantor had awarded them.... - not to give me the salary I had built into the grant, nor the equipment I had requisitioned with such - but to pay the utility bills and assign my salary at their own discretion.

So please understand, I am not condoning the systemic problems - I walked away from them myself. Still, I attempt with my education and knowledge to help others anyway, at no charge, with no strings attached, and that is one of my "purposes" in life, and here on ATS.

Do I know everything? Of course not. Am I limited by bureaucratic rules, and "Behavioral Committee Licensing", and "billable hours with codified diagnostic numbers"? NO.

I chose to practice outside of that system. They cannot stop me either.

So, I hope you all are beginning to understand the levels and layers of this issue.
Cheers, all.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 02:26 PM
reply to post by wildtimes

Mental health institutions still have a long way to go. Millions are still having very negative experience, treatment leaves much to be desired. Medication is too heavily leaned on, symptoms are treated at the expense of the root problem.

I don't blame the doctors all that much, it is more about the overall culture. Like the professional class in almost any industry/sector, they basically do things by the book and try to keep their jobs. They are generally very good people seeking to help, but are constrained by the way things are done.

Asktheanimals is making some real and important points. I've never been hosptilized involuntarily, I caught myself on the slide and admitted myself. But I could easily see a person who is experiencing temporary symptoms being forced into an inpatient facility and being haunted by the experience for the rest of their lives. A lot of people go through temporary crisis and are otherwise functionally fine, yet they end up being labeled and sacrificing rights.

We can't act like the practice is fine tuned to the point of being ideal, or frankly even acceptable.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 02:30 PM
I had good and bad experiences when dealing with mental health. I would like to share my story, so this might turn into a wall of text.

My starting point was my family doctor. When I told him I felt depressed because of my chronic pain, and life circumstances, he gave me a medication he had experience with apparently. But I kept getting worse, and he kept upping the dose. It wasn't until I reacted with psychosis on a high dose that I was referred to a psychiatrist. I wasn't forced into a hospital at that time thank goodness. My new psychiatrist got me off the meds and got me to try other ones. After a few trial and errors I found something that worked for me. I continued seeing my psychiatrist for monthly sessions after I was stable. I eventually got off the meds. Life was "stable".

But then I had a # ton of triggers happen at once, and it got out of control again. At one point I got my psychiatrist to refer me to other professionals for other opinions. I was diagnosed by all 4 - a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a social worker, and my now psychiatrist of over 4 years with major recurrent depression, anxiety, adjustment disorder, PTSD. Eventually the PTSD and AD was dropped, after some CBT. The anxiety and depression kept recurring. At no point has my psychiatrist ever thought of putting me in a hospital setting. He did a life contract with me though - that if I was in crisis I would seek help at a hospital instead of going through with suicide.

My biggest trigger was not having a regular schedule for taking my chronic pain medicine. I would often forget to take my medications (an unfortunate side effect of not dealing with concussions properly). I ran out of my meds at one point. It made me suicidal. I had a plan. I was delusional in the sense that I thought suicide was a viable option. I was in so much pain. It was a vicious cycle, because my physical pain made my mental worse, and the mental pain made me physically hurt more. I happened to reach out to my pain specialist (first mistake) and instead of talking to me, and giving me my prescription she said "this is too much for me to handle, I'm calling 911". I got "formed" and was held in a psychiatric hospital against my will in the severe forensic psychosis ward. It was traumatic.The residents and head psychiatrist misinterpreted my answers and in the end I was misdiagnosed as bipolar. They would not let me out of the hospital until I would consent to being medicated. For three weeks I kept refusing their diagnosis and medication (they wanted to put me on Lithium). They wouldn't let me contact my psychiatrist. But then I gave in. I started lying to the residents, and head doctor and told them I was no longer suicidal even though I totally was. I started taking the medication. After getting "stabilized" on Lithium (another 3 weeks) I was let out from the hospital. A total of 30 days.

But believe it or not the Lithium made me more suicidal. Before I had ideations, and general plans. On Lithium, I was calmly planning. Writing up a will. Researching my choice and looking for the "best" way. I didn't to overdose on pills, I wanted sure death. I told this to my boyfriend and he forced me back into the hospital. After talking with the resident emergency psychiatrist I was formed again. They wouldn't give me any of my medications. Not even my pain meds (I brought my medications with me along with clothing since I knew I was going to stay at least 72 hours). Of course this made things worse, because the pain cycle. On top, they didn't have a bed for me and they wanted me to sleep in a chair. I didn't sleep at all that night. The nurses misinterpreted this as me being manic since I was just diagnosed bipolar. In the morning I asked the nurse why I couldn't sleep in the "lock down room" bed since no one was it in anymore. They told me it was reserved for people who come in with police or who are a danger to others. I told her I was in a lot of pain and asked for my meds. She told me I couldn't have any until I saw another doctor (at this point I talked to 4 different ER DRs). So I made a scene. I took the breakfast trays and threw them, berated those around me. Started crying and broke down. I didn't want to do that, but I was in pain, tired. I got put in the lock down room. I just went straight to the bed and fell fast asleep. Four hours later I was woken up to get transferred. I went to another ward and saw a new resident and psychiatrist the next day. They apologized for how I was treated the first time and in the ER, and took the bipolar diagnosis off my record and fixed it to recurrent major depression, anxiety, and chronic pain. They got me off lithium and I was let out before the 72 hours was up.

I followed up with my psych and am being very honest. It feels good. I hope I never go back to the hospital (at least locally). My psych supports me a lot, and I love him for that. He saved my life a couple times. I am grateful to have a DR like him.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 02:38 PM
reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

Thank you.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 02:42 PM
reply to post by InnerTruths

Thanks a lot for sharing

Your post points out what I like about mental health care- a consistent relationship with a professional who knows you and helps you.

And also what I don't like- sloppy diagnosing and medication being forced on people.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 02:45 PM
reply to post by wildtimes

Yes, insurance companies and bureaucracies are the cause of many problems in todays society.

But you appear to be one of the few people who trying to be a part of the solution rather than perpetuating the problem, and for that I applaud you.

I have read all the posts and I understand the situation. So I can only say good luck and I look forward to encountering you in future threads.

Good day.

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 02:51 PM
reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

And also what I don't like- sloppy diagnosing and medication being forced on people.


I was told I had Bi Polar, Schizophrenia, with possible epilepsy too. They told me I would have to go on social security disability to afford the life time of meds I needed for this debilitating brain disease.


I instead researched my diagnoses, learned from the experience. I am back in school planning on putting a little kink in the current "system" of mental health treatment.

The hardest part for me was getting over the schizophrenia label. Yea I have seen some crazy ####, but that doesn't make me crazy.

In fact I believe the reason we keep creating "new" mental illness diagnoses is because it gives people the rather absurd notion that the way they "think" or view reality is normal. It makes people comfy and resistant to change if you are in the "normal" group.

I think we got it backwards, "normal" is actually "insane".

Look at the world around us.

edit on 8-12-2012 by SyntheticPerception because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 03:10 PM
I would like to add that when I got out of the hospital and got my meds back, I had around 10 pills of lorazepam (Ativan) missing. I reported it to my psychiatrist.

My experience really turned me off from getting help though. The only person I trust enough is my bf and my psychiatrist. If I ever get suicidal again I am afraid of following through, because going through the trauma I went through scarred me. I didn't get much help, it made everything worse and put my life in more jeopardy to an extent.

I am not on any psychiatric meds atm. I am too afraid of medications at this point. Right now I am focusing on finding and controlling my triggers, keeping track of my moods, trying my best to do some necessary changes, but it's not easy and it doesn't happen over night.

I agree with many but I understand meds are there for a reason. When in crisis, it's usually necessary. To get diagnosed with mental illness it literally has to affect ALL aspects of your life, not that you just feel sad, or angry, at times. It cripples you socially, mentally, physically.

And people also need to learn to look for red flags when dealing with your doctors. If he is handing out any medication like candy, without doing tests and examinations, then you really need to look for someone who took the Hippocratic Oath seriously.

If your car broke down you won't take it to a detailer to look and fix the problem. You will take it to a mechanic. And if that mechanic did a #ty job, you wouldn't keep going back to that same mechanic to get it "fixed", would you? I would look for another one who values their clients and customers. One who would spend time and explain what is wrong and how they can fix it. One who wouldn't rip me off.

There needs to be better consumer education. Instead people take everything at face value because they have a piece of paper in a frame up on the wall. Just like there are bad mechanics, there are bad doctors out there. You are the boss of your health, and know yourself better than anyone. If you have a problem with your doctor, let them know, and find a new one. Your health care is your business, so fire your Dr if he isn't good enough, and find one who is.

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