Lets talk Tomahawks.

A good hawk should be forged. This allows for differential temperering. [meaning the edge is harder than the rest]. If forged properly the handle will never slip off but only tighten up the more it is used. Weight should be from one to 11/2 pounds, any more and you have an axe. The haft can vary from 18 inches to around 42 inches. Eastern European history tells of a small hand ax used with a longer haft used as a walking stick called a valaska that could be devastaing if used correctly. All steel hawks while appearing indestructable have a few fallbacks. The weight distribution is wrong causing it to swing "light", and because of edge geometry it will not cleave as effectively as a wider hawk. This causes sticking in whatever you are trying to hack.

A little history. The Amer-indian culture did not use modern tomahawks untill they were introduced by the French fur trappers and early colonists. That also goes for scalping as well, since the French paid a bounty on white scalps. they did however often use a war club in hunting and battle but to a lesser degree than other weapons.

reluctantpawn

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
A good hawk should be forged. This allows for differential temperering. [meaning the edge is harder than the rest]. If forged properly the handle will never slip off but only tighten up the more it is used. Weight should be from one to 11/2 pounds, any more and you have an axe. The haft can vary from 18 inches to around 42 inches. Eastern European history tells of a small hand ax used with a longer haft used as a walking stick called a valaska that could be devastaing if used correctly. All steel hawks while appearing indestructable have a few fallbacks. The weight distribution is wrong causing it to swing "light", and because of edge geometry it will not cleave as effectively as a wider hawk. This causes sticking in whatever you are trying to hack.

A little history. The Amer-indian culture did not use modern tomahawks untill they were introduced by the French fur trappers and early colonists. That also goes for scalping as well, since the French paid a bounty on white scalps. they did however often use a war club in hunting and battle but to a lesser degree than other weapons.

reluctantpawn

Maybe if you're hardcore into hawks,but seems pointless to an average user when could get 2-5 for same cost and would most likely never break in your lifetime

reply to post by NLDelta9


All the reviews I have read there isn't one person talking about it breaking.
I have read reviews on say, the SOG, where it breaks mid way down, where the tang ends.
I understand what you are saying though.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by NLDelta9

 

All the reviews I have read there isn't one person talking about it breaking.
I have read reviews on say, the SOG, where it breaks mid way down, where the tang ends.
I understand what you are saying though.

yeah,I just see the chance is there and if happens are screwed

being able to carry without handle (less weight/space) and turning it into an adze is a major plus too

reply to post by reluctantpawn

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
A little history. The Amer-indian culture did not use modern tomahawks untill they were introduced by the French fur trappers and early colonists. That also goes for scalping as well, since the French paid a bounty on white scalps. they did however often use a war club in hunting and battle but to a lesser degree than other weapons.

reluctantpawn

Ahhh, well that explains it. I have gotten into collecting Native American artifacts and have been wondering "Why are there no tomahawk artifacts?". Although they would have been recent I'm pretty sure that there were some crafted from flint/chert. I actually have a few of them although the "arrowhead" community says they are fully worked peices of spall, lol. I hadn't shown them to the archeo's or I might get a different opinion..

reply to post by NLDelta9


I pay anywhere from 60$ US and up for handforged hawks. Check out Rondevous and mountain man festivals. I pick up mine at the NMLA shoots in Friendship IN.

If you plan on using something in the most extreme conditions does it really pay to skrimp on an inferior tool? Especially if your life may depend on It?

reluctantpawn

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
reply to post by NLDelta9

 

I pay anywhere from 60$ US and up for handforged hawks. Check out Rondevous and mountain man festivals. I pick up mine at the NMLA shoots in Friendship IN.

If you plan on using something in the most extreme conditions does it really pay to skrimp on an inferior tool? Especially if your life may depend on It?

reluctantpawn

I wouldn't say you're skimping when its basically indestructible for anything you would use it for Not to mention could get many for same price.

it's like saying i'm skimping for buying the $5 hammer yet will last for generations.

reply to post by NLDelta9


I can see that.
But, it is a lot harder to break solid steel hawk, as opposed to half steel and half fiberglass.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by NLDelta9

 

I can see that.
But, it is a lot harder to break solid steel hawk, as opposed to half steel and half fiberglass.

True,but I still can't see any advantage a steel handle would have unless was mainly used for combat,but even then it weighs much more and soldiers don't need more of that to carry.

I just saw a video of a 175lb soldier and with his 2 day pack weighed over 300lbs

there are many types for all, and in all price range, the best is the best for you, here is a link that you might like budk.com... remember what are using it for what is the price you can afford, and how are you going to use it.
when in hand to hand your hands get bloody here is one that has the "grip" when needed battle tested for over 40 years www.americantomahawk.com...

reply to post by NLDelta9


My use is not for throwing, but for a BOB tool.
And yes, the 175 guy has a lot of equipment to carry.
That is why they train for such things.

That is why I stay training to carry what I have set aside for such things as well.

reply to post by macman
this one might be for you budk.com... nice survival tool not bad for a BOB add on.

reply to post by bekod


At 22" long, it may be too big.

there is still the geometry of a solid haft versus forged haft. As I said it will stick in whatever you are chopping due the lack of breadth on the back of the hawk. The swing is also off as you will not get the most effective penetration due to the thinner blade. So now you have less penetration, a sticking tool that you may not be able to pull out as well as a lessoning of blunt force trauma due to lake of proper weight distribution.

What does this mean? In an up close and personal encounter you swing your hawk. It penetrates into a non debilitating bone due to inproper swing and weight distribution. The hawk gets stuck and you can't pull it out. You then have one pissed off animal or personal that will pull a blood slick haft out of your hand and leave you unarmed.

Don't think this will happen? Do some historical referencing and see why weapons and tools are made the way the are. There is more to this than looks and feel. Many of the weapons we see as beatiful and classy have evolved therough many countless battles and experience. The Samurai sword is but one example. The graceful curve we so admire comes from differential heat treating giving the entire blade flexibility but extreme edge holding ability on the cutting surface. The San-mai forging [two differing layers of steel hammer forged together helps in this regard using a harder steel on the edge, and a softer mor flexible steel on the back. The curve comes from the natural shrinking and expansion due to the heat treating. This curve also creates what is known as belly allowing for a smooth draw cut with little resistance. However on must know the limits of such a tool. While a suburp slicer it does not do well as a chopper.

Ther are a great many aspects that go into any tool or weapon that are at first not visible. Take for example a blood groove. While it lends ascthetic disposition to the bladed it also adds strenth and allows air enter the wound so that the blade may be extracted, otherwise it will remain stuck through suction and you will loose use of your weapon or at best be placed in a position requiring time and energy best used elswhere.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn


WOW, great analysis.
Thanks.

reply to post by reluctantpawn


I'm still not convinced would see any difference,in fact being machine made should be better by the mere fact of a heavier and constant hammer compared to a puny human.

Most of the machine made items being knife or hawk or any other cutting tool are ground and not forged. A properly forged blade is heated to a specific temp[ dependant on type of steel] it is then struck causing the mloecular alignment of its atomic structure. Not only does this alignment increase strength it also increases in molecular density due to the hammer strikes compressing this same structure. So now you have a piece of steel that is both dense and molecularly grained creating a stronger metalurgical structure. Couple this with the newfound quenching in liquid nitrogen and you get a much stronger metalurgical compound.

But then it is apparent that longevity and ability to withstand abuse, coupled with the possibility of handing something over to your grandchildren as a family heirloom is not in the forground of you thinking. Yes your tool will work and do its job, but it will not work as well, last as long, or even have the artistic value of a hand made piece. If you are comparing paying 35$ us for a mass produced item to 60$ us for a hand made heirloom then you obiously need to spend your money on something other than a tomahawk to play around with, on an occasional weekend in the woods, or to place in a bag for future use when you may not have the knowledge or experience to use what things you have.

You have asked for opinions and I have given mine based on science and fact. If you choose to not take this into consideration that is up to you. I am only trying to explain the diferrences in what to expect from what you buy.

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn


The difference for me is the SW $65 hawk, or one that is $400.
I would love the handmade $400 one, but funds will not allow for that.

What about heat treating the $65 ground/machined hawk?

reply to post by macman


For 65 dollarsyou can get a hand forged hawk. It takes a little work but they are available. Just remember these are tools not art like the 400$ ones. Many mountain man festivals and roundevous type fairs wil have a blacksmith that has them.

reply to post by reluctantpawn


I know.
But, I am more inclined for a full steel piece and not a steel head with wooden shaft.