Man exiled for debunking 'weeping Jesus'

And another as well, this one quoting what he found:

I had a close look at a nearby washroom and the connected drainage system that passed underneath the concrete base of the cross. I removed some stones from the drain and found it was blocked. I touched the walls, the base, and the cross and took some photographs for documentation. It was very simple: Water from the washroom, which had been blocked in the clogged drainage system, had been transmitted via capillary action into the adjacent walls and the base of the cross as well as into the wooden cross itself. The water came out through a nail hole and ran down over the statue's feet.

Sanal Edamaruku, Indian Rationalist, Proves 'Weeping Christ' Miracle A Hoax, Now Faces Years In Jail (VIDEO)

Jesus Wept
A skeptic faces possible charges for debunking Mumbai’s miracle statue.
This one from Slate cites Newscientist magazine as the source for their article.

A section or two from an interview with him:

What was the so-called miracle you recently investigated in Mumbai?
The priest and the very active Catholic laity organizations associated with the Our Lady of Velankanni Church in Mumbai were promoting the idea that water dripping from the feet of a statue of Jesus was a sign from God. Hundreds of believers flocked to the dripping cross, collecting and consuming "holy" drainage water that they believed would cure all ailments.
....
It was very simple: Water from the washroom, which had been blocked in the clogged drainage system, had been transmitted via capillary action into the adjacent walls and the base of the cross as well as into the wooden cross itself. The water came out through a nail hole and ran down over the statue's feet.
...
Do you have any regrets about intervening?
Why would one not intervene when somebody gives gullible people sewage to drink? But my reason is broader. The promotion of superstition and belief in paranormal phenomena dulls people's minds and establishes dangerous misconceptions about reality in our society. Such efforts have to be countered.

Why do people so readily believe in miracles?
For many, the regressive belief in superstitions and miracles is an escape from the hardships of life. Once trapped into irrationalism, they become more incapable of mastering reality. It is a vicious circle, like an addiction. They become vulnerable to exploitation by astrologers, godmen, dubious pseudo-psychologists, corrupt politicians, and the whole mega-industry of irrationalism.

So far I am unable to find anything provided on any source about anyone having "debunked" this debunker.
Nada. Zip. Nothing.
Seems to be a variety of outlets reporting it.

reply to post by NavyDoc

I'm glad that in the US, it is not illegal to offend people and I would opine, that this is really more about the lack of fundimental freedoms across the world rather than yet another reason to hate on religions.

In the US, it is illegal to DEFRAUD people.

I see you are implying I look for reasons to "hate on religions". NavyDoc, if religions are LYING TO PEOPLE, they are lying to people. Why do you want to defend the indefensible?

Perhaps the followers and believers, perhaps even the priest, with their miracle-spying-bias, WANTED it so much to be a miracle that they wouldn't even have looked into it. Defrauding people is wrong, I don't care if the culprit is a priest, a banker, a Ponzi-schemer, a snake-oil salesman, big Pharma, or a couple of crack-heads living in a seedy motel producing counterfeit currency (as recently happened in my own metro area), or a casino dealer stacking cards.

Counterfeiters are counterfeiters, in whatever venue they appear.
IT IS WRONG.


But, clearly, you didn't look into the sources. You simply knee-jerked because you don't like the stuff I bring to the table. It even states in several of the articles that I linked that India has Freedom of Speech laws. That means "offending" people is not unlawful......but woe to the person who states that a miracle is fake - he is a Blasphemer. The two laws cancel one another out in favor of religion.

It's pretty sad man a man has to flee after exposing something like this. Blasphemy laws are ludicrous. Any one religion being protected from dissenting opinion or criticism legally is so draconian and so oppressive that it makes me shiver to think about it. People should be thankful they were alerted from the fact they we're drinking that polluted water, if anything he should be applauded. Yet for some strange reason he's treated as a criminal...why? Oh, yeah, because he dared to say that statue of good ole Jesus Christ crying some nice holy poo water wasn't miraculous. A law that willl actively prosecute someone for taking the miracle out of Jesus cry poo tears is very dangerous indeed. Would it still be a miracle if the poo tears came from thin air for real? I guess it doesn't matter if the tears are poo tears so long as it's Jesus crying them....brings a whole new mean to the term ''holy crap''

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

I'm glad that in the US, it is not illegal to offend people and I would opine, that this is really more about the lack of fundimental freedoms across the world rather than yet another reason to hate on religions.

In the US, it is illegal to DEFRAUD people.

I see you are implying I look for reasons to "hate on religions". NavyDoc, if religions are LYING TO PEOPLE, they are lying to people. Why do you want to defend the indefensible?

Perhaps the followers and believers, perhaps even the priest, with their miracle-spying-bias, WANTED it so much to be a miracle that they wouldn't even have looked into it. Defrauding people is wrong, I don't care if the culprit is a priest, a banker, a Ponzi-schemer, a snake-oil salesman, big Pharma, or a couple of crack-heads living in a seedy motel producing counterfeit currency (as recently happened in my own metro area), or a casino dealer stacking cards.

Counterfeiters are counterfeiters, in whatever venue they appear.
IT IS WRONG.

edit on 7-12-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

But, clearly, you didn't look into the sources. You simply knee-jerked because you don't like the stuff I bring to the table. It even states in several of the articles that I linked that India has Freedom of Speech laws. That means "offending" people is not unlawful......but woe to the person who states that a miracle is fake - he is a Blasphemer. The two laws cancel one another out in favor of religion.

edit on 7-12-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Shrug. The people wanted to believe and they acted in the way they wanted. It didn't fool anyone who was not already vested in the belief system. Might as well go after history channel for the series "Ancient Aliens" or "Ghost Hunters", might as well throw those guys who sell magnetic bracelets in the mall in jail or the crystal healer types.

I looked into the sources, I've even spent time in India (apparently you haven't) and the Catholics are nowhere a law-making majority. The law is a hold over from when India was largely a Hindi state. I don't agree with it at all and I think many laws in India are anachronistic bull# and the guy should not serve any penalty by the state.

Death threats? Meh, you get death threats in the US if you criticise the wrong musician or President Obama. Fanatical assholes are fanatical assholes the world 'round.

Did this guy prove anything? No. "Cappillary action" is a hell of a stretch for the phenomenon and this was his theory but in no way is that proof of anything and his explaination was just as convoluted as anything else. If we are going to thrash on religious types for lack of logical thought, we must not abandon logical thought when it is one of our guys doing it.

Other than being some sort of self-righteous killjoy, why even bother with the religious nutjobs? They were not hurting anybody, leave 'em alone. I wonder just how empty someone'e life is when they have to run around finding reasons to take a leak in other people's breakfast cereal. Live and let live, dude. If he is more enlightened then the superstitious, he should act like it.

When I see people falling for something like this or getting excited about "Jesus in a piece of toast" I shrug, get a bit of a laugh at how stupid people can be, and I get on with my life. I don't add to the stupidness by running out to "debunk" the "never bunked" and look as much as an idiot as the idiots that were buying the idiotic in the first place.

reply to post by NavyDoc

I looked into the sources, I've even spent time in India (apparently you haven't) and the Catholics are nowhere a law-making majority. The law is a hold over from when India was largely a Hindi state.

No, I haven't. My daughter (a material science engineer) has been, though...so, by one degree of separation (is that the term?).....

NavyDoc, you confuse me.

Why would you promote "ignoring ignorance" and just shrug this off? The people who believe this stuff and are invested have a right to their beliefs, sure. But they also have a right to be educated and to be shown that what they are being told is false.
No?

They were not hurting anybody, leave 'em alone. I wonder just how empty someone'e life is when they have to run around finding reasons to take a leak in other people's breakfast cereal. Live and let live, dude. If he is more enlightened then the superstitious, he should act like it.

Letting people lick or drink tainted water isn't 'hurting anybody'?
This guy's life is certainly not empty. And religious fanaticism is not breakfast cereal. (Of course, we have no way of knowing if someone used this "holy statue water" to wet their breakfast cereal.)

I don't get your intent here. Seems to be just to discredit me; though why, I don't know. I just found a bunch of articles and posted them....

I hate being lied to. I hate it when others are lied to, as well. Deception is one of the main problems in our society.

They are accusing him of interfering with people's religion.

reply to post by wildtimes


Maybe the church should be accused of coning the entire congregation and the town. I wonder how much money was donated to the church because of this so called miracle?

reply to post by WeRpeons


Yeah, there was a linked article in one of the sites I went to in an effort to corroborate this story - the same guy went to a "moving statue" in Ireland and showed how it was done. There was mention of the church just ignoring the allegation, BUT, they set up a huge donation box near the hoax.....
said something about waiting 100-200 years (for the fervor to die down) before deciding whether to claim "miracle" or not.

Home-made Catholic "miracle" at Ballinspittle

Travelling South and North Ireland during the last week of November, Sanal Edamaruku spoke in public meetings in Dublin, Cork, Galway and Belfast and met politicians, professors and students and supporters of atheist and rationalist organisations in several places. Before he left for Germany, the leaders of Atheist Ireland, who organized and hosted his journey, invited Sanal to visit the village Ballinspittle, the place of the famous Catholic “miracle” of the “Moving Mary” statue.

Here's the source: www.rationalistinternational.net...

AND! New since this morning, another entry into the same site:

‘Blasphemy law is unworthy of secular democracy’

In a long and very open interview, Sanal Edamaruku speaks in Stockholm to Pallavi Polanki from FIRSTPOST about the draconian Blasphemy Law that has to be abolished, about his life in exile, about his "underground" times in Delhi, about failed attempts to win the support of Indian politicians and about his next plans. (Click here to read the interview)

And another!

India awakes

This TV program is a breakthrough. CNN IBN, a leading English-language channel, started a campaign for the freedom of Sanal Edamaruku. “Does a rationalist deserve to be jailed for questioning a religious miracle?”, asked firebrand moderator Sargarika Ghose on 4th December in CNN IBN’s flagship program Face the Nation, calling upon the public to take a stand. The response was impressive: people from all walks of life expressed unequivocal support for Sanal, on camera, on twitter and on facebook. The wave keeps running... And 87% of the viewers who participated in a public internet ballot answered the question “Are blasphemy laws out of place in a secular democracy?” with a clear Yes! The blasphemy law should go.

‘Blasphemy law is unworthy of secular democracy’
Here's a link to the lengthy interview discussing the case. From Dec 4th.

Stony silence from the government is what India’s best-known Rationalist Sanal Edamaruku has met with in response to his appeals to defend free speech and send out a strong signal that the state’s “laws are not to be used to suppress scientific knowledge and reasonable criticism of religious mysticism.”

In 21st century India, in Mumbai, no less, an endeavour to expose a fraud has cost the president of the Indian Rationalist Association his freedom.

Edamaruku’s perfectly logical explanation of ‘tears’ dripping from a statue of Christ at a church in Mumbai being the result not of a ‘miracle’ but of capillary action sucking up drain water from a leaky pipe, and therefore a health risk to devotees drinking it, was considered a blasphemy. He has been charged under Section 295(a) of the Indian Penal Code for ‘deliberately hurting religious feelings and attempting malicious acts intended to outrage the religious sentiments’.

He's in trouble for "deliberately hurting religious feelings and attempting malicious acts intended to outrage the religious sentiments." ??????????????

In ATS lingo: Trolling.
REALLY???? So this law in India is an anti-trolling law. For all intents and purposes.
When does it end?




Gha.

reply to post by wildtimes


Actually, I didn't post with the intent to discredit you and I apologize if it came off that way. All I did was, in teh first post, opine that the debunker guy did not prove anything. All he did was present an alternative explaination--an explaination that is much more logical than "God did it" I admit, but that, in and of itself, was not proof. He'd have to dissasemble the whole process and create reepatable empiric experiments to get to the level of proof.

I like freedom of speech. I do not like "you hurt my feelings" laws. Thankfully we do not have much of that here in the US. They have such stuff in progressive Europe though.
en.wikipedia.org...

Cultural Sensitivity
Germany's military history is subject to additional laws regarding cultural sensitivity. To promote and foster a culture of tolerance, sensitivity and freedom from hate, German lawmakers have instituted cultural sensitivity laws. For example, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust, a law which does not exist in many other Western nations. It is also illegal to promote hate or engage in Nazi activity. The punishments for doing so are very strict.



Read more: German Culture Laws | eHow.com www.ehow.com...

I think one should be perfectly free to call Jesus a "right bastard" and those offended should be perfectly free to call the guy who says that an "obnoxious prick." I don't think words merit death threats.

Regardless, there is no evidence of fraud in this case. The debunker provided a reasonable (albeit convoluted) explaination to the phenomena, but there is no indication, evidence, nor allegation that anyone was intentionally deceiving anyone. There is no evidence that there was sewer water nor that it was any more harmful than any other local water--just this guy's allegation. Did he do a microscopic analysis to see what sort of microbes were present? Nope. I thought we athiests were supposed to be the rational, evidence based bunch.

As long as it does not "break my leg nor pick my pocket," (to quote Thomas Jefferson) I don't care what people believe. Is not forcing people to accept the "truth" as you see it just as arrogant as those prostelytizing (sp) true believers?

Jesus, that is sick.

They should thank him....but noooo. He is a party pooper.

I wouldn't apologize, in fact I would take them to court for making me move.

Humanity is retarded.

reply to post by NavyDoc

Is not forcing people to accept the "truth" as you see it just as arrogant as those prostelytizing (sp) true believers?

Forcing? I'm not forcing anyone; neither is the exiled guy.

Yes, to answer your question at face value, "forcing" anyone to accept something they don't agree with is imposing your values upon them. Not okay. That's a totally different thing.... if the "true believers" are being duped, is it not incumbent upon us to let them know?

MLK, Jr. said:
"Our lives begin to end the day that we remain silent about things that matter."

It matters to me that people are being fooled.

reply to post by wildtimes

In Mumbai, India, a crucifix was "weeping" sewer water and the priests were offering this sewer water (caused by a leaking pipe) to Catholics to drink and lick....

The price for idolatry. What a shame. Might be a good time to strt taking antibiotics for them just in case, and probably should go get some Mentos.

Ahh, Religion; believing in stuff that isn't real in spite of all contrary evidence, refusing to budge, and taking high offense at the insult to their fantasies since time immemorable.

Sewer water. Disgusting.

Makes me wonder why there was no one following around Jesus with a bucket to cash in on the holy sh#t market.

Imagine those religious ceremonies: An now we bring forth the holy excrement ... ahhh-mennn.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Is not forcing people to accept the "truth" as you see it just as arrogant as those prostelytizing (sp) true believers?

Forcing? I'm not forcing anyone; neither is the exiled guy.

Yes, to answer your question at face value, "forcing" anyone to accept something they don't agree with is imposing your values upon them. Not okay. That's a totally different thing.... if the "true believers" are being duped, is it not incumbent upon us to let them know?

MLK, Jr. said:
"Our lives begin to end the day that we remain silent about things that matter."

It matters to me that people are being fooled.

Meh. The only people who are being fooled by moisture on a statue are those who want to be fooled. If I go into a church and see water dripping from a statue, my first thought is "these guys have a moisture problem, they better get it fixed," not "OMG it is a miracle!" They believe because they want to belief and what business is it of anyone to make a fuss over it? I'm certain that you have plenty of beliefs that someone else thinks is wrong and wants to save you from. As Lewis Carrol said: "Some people say 'tis love, 'tis love makes the world go 'round. I say 'tis people minding their own damned business."

As for India, the law in question was put out by the British Colonial government in 1860 and I think it made sense to them at the time. The Brits did not care about cultural and religious sensitivities, they just wanted order. India has had religious violence for millenia: Sikh against Hindi, Mulsim against Sikh, Hindi against Muslim, and Christians but a blip on the radar. The Brits wanted order so they made a law where anyone couldn't say anything about anyone. Kind of like a schoolteacher telling the class that nobody can touch anyone for any reason. I can imagine JOhn Cleese, dressed in full SGTMajor regalia, standing up and saying," Right! Okay you lot, you are going to get along or else!" It is an anacronism and should be done away with.

Blasphemy laws are antithetical to a free society, I think we agree on that. However, in order to be consistent, we must also include any "don't hurt anybody's feelings" type laws. If we just focus on religious offence but ban other speech that is offensive, we are hypocrites. Thus, in addition to removing anti-blasphemy laws, we need to also remove laws against speech that is offensive based on ethnicity, history, culture, country of origin, and so forth. In order to have a free society, we also must accept that some people may use their free speech to be a jerk.

reply to post by Druscilla


holy communion would definitely go down the tubes...

"This the body...broken for you...'

''Put it back together! the body has a peanut in it!!"

For them to scamming the Catholics, like that, when no Catholic wants to drink radiactive or sewer water, that is pretty much genocide and thus against the Genova Convention.

Considering how many prescription drugs are in our water (especially sewer water) I wouldn't find it hard to believe these people really were getting cured of certain ailments...

reply to post by luciddream


Dude, I was brought up around the largest river system in Australia. It has its moments with pollution etc. If we can do that here with roughly 4-5 Million living on its banks, I'd hate to see what is going through that system in India.. People don't only use it for religious purposes but I will admit I may of over generalised.. Some use it daily to wash their clothing, themselves and then they wonder why they have the runs on a regular basis.

One thing strikes me as odd here, NOT A SINGLE MIRACLE has ever been proven
to be true via scientific testing, yet these fools want us to assume that they are correct,
society globally has got to start treating these lunatics like real lunatics, when they
make outrageous claims and talk about some kind of right they seem to think should
be extended to mental patients claiming anything they like, then we as society have
a duty to treat them like they are crazy, to not allow what sounds and is just plain insane
to be treated with respect.

There should be no respect for religious beliefs, this is the danger of undeserved
respect for beliefs which are contrary to reality and common sense, every single
time those things will ask that you ignore reason and honesty to support insanity.
to believe something does not merit respect, being honest about things merits respect.
to simply respect someone because they believe some crazy story of a god is just
so strange.......... we don't respect people who believe they are god or that they see
fairies, or leprechauns....... yet these people want respect for believing things just
as ridiculous......

I swear religion is the most backwards, waste of time, evil thing to ever wear the
mantle of morality. STOP respecting insanity, please.