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The diminishing Republican brand.

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posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by catt3
reply to post by longlostbrother
 


Show me the huge loss


Which huge loss?




posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by longlostbrother


You should, again, do some basic research.

The French healthcare system covers the entire nation. It is well loved by the French and pretty much everyone.

It cost less, a lot less, per person to run than the US system.

It is endlessly less wasteful than the US system.

It's outcomes are better, across the board.



What do you think? Is there a possibility of copying the French system here in America?


To make all this affordable, France reimburses its doctors at a far lower rate than U.S. physicians would accept. However, French doctors don't have to pay back their crushing student loans because medical school is paid for by the state, and malpractice insurance premiums are a tiny fraction of the $55,000 a year and up that many U.S. doctors pay. That $55,000 equals the average yearly net income for French doctors, a third of what their American counterparts earn. Then again, the French government pays two-thirds of the social security tax for most French physicians—a tax that's typically 40% of income.


www.businessweek.com...

I wonder if anyone's done the math on how much more France actually saves in healthcare costs after paying for their doctors' medical schooling and two thirds of their social security taxes for them.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


So you like a lame duck government?

If not what is your point?

Not that you care but people who easily swing party affiliations are too confused to vote properly. They probably should have their voting priviliges revoked. But we live in a make-believe free country dominated by money and secret agendas, so the media is bound to push certain parties and candidates, while totatally ignoring others. This causes the illusion of extremely limited choice.


I don't like a lame duck Government per say...but then. MOST of my life has been spent living in an America where split Government did NOT mean lame duck and gridlock to the total loss of anything at all getting done. Clinton, Daddy Bush and Reagan all served in varying states of mixed Government and that was a good thing. Very good thing.

You see, as much as some would say split Governemnt is a bad thing...and Republicans have full control of the house while Dems have the Senate is counter-productive, I look at it a different way. Would you prefer a SUPER-majority voting block of Republicans in both houses of Congress while running the White House? That solves gridlock and lame duck questions. It would solve them entirely. Republicans would get everything they want and anyone who didn't like it could just move, cork it, or hide somewhere.


Sounds like Utopia doesn't it? Ahhh..... I can almost smell the mountains of despair among the poor folks now in such a world. .....and that's the DOWNSIDE of what full Right control would bring.

Full LEFT control brings the opposite. The poor will be happier than they'd ever beb under a full Right Government but those who generate what makes any nation wealthy or 'great' will be stomped flat in the process. Such that, the poor better be happy by the end. Poor is the majority of what will be left.


^^^^ Now MIX those two extremes and and force some cooperation? We get an imperfect system that carries some of both extremes without the full downsides to suffer from either. We're a 50/50 nation ...almost dead even on right vs. left ideology.

There isn't another way this happens. Period. Cooperation happens? Or we all fall together.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


So you like a lame duck government?

If not what is your point?

Not that you care but people who easily swing party affiliations are too confused to vote properly. They probably should have their voting priviliges revoked. But we live in a make-believe free country dominated by money and secret agendas, so the media is bound to push certain parties and candidates, while totatally ignoring others. This causes the illusion of extremely limited choice.


I don't like a lame duck Government per say...but then. MOST of my life has been spent living in an America where split Government did NOT mean lame duck and gridlock to the total loss of anything at all getting done. Clinton, Daddy Bush and Reagan all served in varying states of mixed Government and that was a good thing. Very good thing.

You see, as much as some would say split Governemnt is a bad thing...and Republicans have full control of the house while Dems have the Senate is counter-productive, I look at it a different way. Would you prefer a SUPER-majority voting block of Republicans in both houses of Congress while running the White House? That solves gridlock and lame duck questions. It would solve them entirely. Republicans would get everything they want and anyone who didn't like it could just move, cork it, or hide somewhere.


Sounds like Utopia doesn't it? Ahhh..... I can almost smell the mountains of despair among the poor folks now in such a world. .....and that's the DOWNSIDE of what full Right control would bring.

Full LEFT control brings the opposite. The poor will be happier than they'd ever beb under a full Right Government but those who generate what makes any nation wealthy or 'great' will be stomped flat in the process. Such that, the poor better be happy by the end. Poor is the majority of what will be left.


^^^^ Now MIX those two extremes and and force some cooperation? We get an imperfect system that carries some of both extremes without the full downsides to suffer from either. We're a 50/50 nation ...almost dead even on right vs. left ideology.

There isn't another way this happens. Period. Cooperation happens? Or we all fall together.


Actually.

There is no real right to deal with, is there?

There's a bunch of tea party hacks that want to blow up government, and some political tricksters whose main priority is to stop the President, but no serious Republicans, or at least very few.

The right's supporters are not, by and large, supporting these amazing Republican suggestions and policies, they are by and large ideologues and anti-Obamaites... And sure, if you disagree, tell me of these amazing Republican policies and initiatives the Republicans are pushing... love to hear about them...

IF there were two parties with reasonable ideas, they could negotiate a solution, but... one reasonable party and one extremist filled obstructionist party... nothing will happen...



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by longlostbrother
 


There's a bunch of tea party hacks that want to blow up government, and some political tricksters whose main priority is to stop the President, but no serious Republicans, or at least very few.

The right's supporters are not, by and large, supporting these amazing Republican suggestions and policies, they are by and large ideologues and anti-Obamaites... And sure, if you disagree, tell me of these amazing Republican policies and initiatives the Republicans are pushing... love to hear about them...


I honestly don't know how to debate you on this anymore. Your stereotyping, as evidenced here, is so vicious and hateful to me personally and anyone who shares my side of the political spectrum, it leaves no possibility to even seek common ground. When the discussion opens with fighting words, no one can be surprised that a fight is all anyone gets out of it. Sadly, these fighting word approaches are as common in Washington from both sides as they are between normal people right now.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by longlostbrother
 


There's a bunch of tea party hacks that want to blow up government, and some political tricksters whose main priority is to stop the President, but no serious Republicans, or at least very few.

The right's supporters are not, by and large, supporting these amazing Republican suggestions and policies, they are by and large ideologues and anti-Obamaites... And sure, if you disagree, tell me of these amazing Republican policies and initiatives the Republicans are pushing... love to hear about them...


I honestly don't know how to debate you on this anymore. Your stereotyping, as evidenced here, is so vicious and hateful to me personally and anyone who shares my side of the political spectrum, it leaves no possibility to even seek common ground. When the discussion opens with fighting words, no one can be surprised that a fight is all anyone gets out of it. Sadly, these fighting word approaches are as common in Washington from both sides as they are between normal people right now.


But of course I don't think you have the capacity to be reasonable about this either.

The good news for me is that the country agrees with my assessment.

One side wants to blow up governement, by their own admission; one side wants to fix it.

How do they negotiate a solution?

They don't.

One loses frequently enough that is becomes irrelevant is replaced by people that will actually negotiate in good faith. That's the process we're seeing happen now.

The GOP lost it's hope when it let the Tea Party - which had been completely coopted by corporate interests - take over... that was it.

We see reasonable moderate after reasonable moderate say the same thing - both are bad, but the GOP is worse. That's what polls now show that the majority of Americans have finally realised.

You can't negotiate with extremists. Tough luck for the extremists. Good luck for the majority of Americans who are moderates and want things like Medicare and good education and good healthcare and don't think that tax are theft or Medicare is Communism.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by longlostbrother
 


I agree 100% that one simply can't debate with extremists. It's likely the only thing and certainly last thing we'll discuss to agree on at all. I can't find common ground with someone who hates me intensely, personally, on nothing but my political beliefs. It can't be done...and I just hope the majority are not as polarized. If they are, we won't have a United anything much longer. It just won't be there. It has taken generally like minded people to make this thing work for over 200 years. It cannot stand long when 50% of the people want it one way, 50% want it another way and both sides are willing to see the object being fought over, crash and burn with no survivors if they can't get it their own personal way.


It's bad bad times we're in...and this hate for the sheer sake of being partisan about hating people is too much and killing everything good about America. Take care there....Longlost. Try as I might...I just can't find debate ground with your level of open hate so I'll definitely bow out further talking with ya. No one needs to see the other approach I know how to take. Not here....ATS doesn't go that way and I'm glad for it.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by longlostbrother
 


I agree 100% that one simply can't debate with extremists. It's likely the only thing and certainly last thing we'll discuss to agree on at all. I can't find common ground with someone who hates me intensely, personally, on nothing but my political beliefs. It can't be done...and I just hope the majority are not as polarized. If they are, we won't have a United anything much longer. It just won't be there. It has taken generally like minded people to make this thing work for over 200 years. It cannot stand long when 50% of the people want it one way, 50% want it another way and both sides are willing to see the object being fought over, crash and burn with no survivors if they can't get it their own personal way.


It's bad bad times we're in...and this hate for the sheer sake of being partisan about hating people is too much and killing everything good about America. Take care there....Longlost. Try as I might...I just can't find debate ground with your level of open hate so I'll definitely bow out further talking with ya. No one needs to see the other approach I know how to take. Not here....ATS doesn't go that way and I'm glad for it.


To be clear: I don't hate you personally. Not even in the least.

I do find you extremely partisan, an ideologue and dishonest. I feel the same though, about so many you choose to side with.

I don't really hate anyone for the record, but I do think that the right in America are basically antiquated and as they are unwilling to, at this point, change their positions, they tend to hide them or lie about them (e.g. Romney claiming that the 47% thing was simply an inelegant phrasing of an inclusive belief - total lie, or how about the "don't criticise a President at a time of war" - what happened to that?).

Like I have repeatedly reminded folks, the GOP has only managed to win the popular vote in a Presidential election once in the last 20 years. They are not a popular party and even when up against a black President with a horrible economy, they can't win - or come close.

Yet look at the levels of self-delusion you, and your party suffer from. "Mitt Romney will win in a landslide." "All the polls show Democratic bias." Etc., etc.

They'd rather lie to themselves, and lie to Americans, than change their ACTUAL policies.

Right now, in the midst of this fiscal cliff mess, their biggest priority was, at least initially, protecting tax cuts of the top 2% of earners. It's wildly nutso. And symptomatic. Just like McConnell begging to not have to vote on a bill he brought to the floor. Delusion, lies and game playing...

That I do hate.

Like John Stewart so accurately stated after the Clint Eastwood fiasco:

The right is arguing with an invisible and non-existent Obama that only they can see.

Swing at windmills, generating all the "secret Muslim Manchurian Communist" crap... all from the right... more delusions, more lies,,,

It's pathetic.

So no; I don't hate you personally. I do think your a decent representation, of your party though.

Come and visit us in reality and I'm sure we'd get along fine.
edit on 7-12-2012 by longlostbrother because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by longlostbrother
 


I agree 100% that one simply can't debate with extremists. It's likely the only thing and certainly last thing we'll discuss to agree on at all. I can't find common ground with someone who hates me intensely, personally, on nothing but my political beliefs. It can't be done...and I just hope the majority are not as polarized. If they are, we won't have a United anything much longer. It just won't be there. It has taken generally like minded people to make this thing work for over 200 years. It cannot stand long when 50% of the people want it one way, 50% want it another way and both sides are willing to see the object being fought over, crash and burn with no survivors if they can't get it their own personal way.


It's bad bad times we're in...and this hate for the sheer sake of being partisan about hating people is too much and killing everything good about America. Take care there....Longlost. Try as I might...I just can't find debate ground with your level of open hate so I'll definitely bow out further talking with ya. No one needs to see the other approach I know how to take. Not here....ATS doesn't go that way and I'm glad for it.


What do you consider rich? Millionares, billionares or trillionares?

The billionares and trillionares should pay 80% of the taxes, then the millionares and some basic contributions from everyone else. Do you know what private central banking is? Do you know that iran and syria are the only countries on this planet that I am aware of that have public central banks and the illuminati is desperately trying to invaded them so that they can install a private central bank? Reality is not what it seems my friend. I know you mean well but democrats and republicans are focusing on the wrong issues, which does lead to class warfare. Class warfare is good to a certain extent but not this way and with the wrong targets in sight. We are bombing our own troops and it is sick.

All the money ever issued is being hoarded by a few thousand people throughout the world. This is what needs to be addressed, but a united nations and usa federal government infested with such outrageous blue bloods is preventing progress. In fact we are going backwards each year! Socialism and communism are the only known cures to this disease. Why do you think they are dirty words implanted into each american's head 100 years ago? If mainstream media says it is dark outside, you should say "no, it is a bright sunny day."




posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by longlostbrother
 

Alright, that's fair in what you say and I'll make this my closing note. It's a good one to close on, since we seem to be closing on a point of truce and not actually exchanging hard words at the moment.


You see the world one way, I see it another. Population numbers in raw figures say my side has roughly half a nation of like mind and your side has roughly half a nation of like mind. I'm not saying that to debate it. It's the outcome of every Presidential Election considering pure math and numbers going back to Daddy Bush getting in and..in my eyes..truly starting the final phase of the nightmare we're now living the end game for.

Given that totally opposite and mutually exclusive way of seeing the world, it would be a nicer and gentler way to put this to say we've just formed from different life experience, difference choices in life and radically different environments. Are you wrong? and I wrong? Well...I'd say that's subjective. If I'd lived your life...I'd probably see things your way. Visa Versa I'll bet. I wish the hard hard polarization wasn't there, but it is....

I don't suppose hard feelings need be there...and I'll leave that without elaboration. It's not helpful. I'll just say I respect your position but can never see a way to meet you on it...even half way and in this debate? Discretion is the better part of valor, as I step back.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by longlostbrother
 


Do you really think all the outrageous and bulky regulations affect big business such as the big international banks? NO! They affect small and medium business that cannot afford to offshore and automate their way into riches. The people making the laws already know this, they could care less because of the donations they get from their donors. They are intentionally targeting the wrong sectors of society. I agree democrats are slightly better than republicans which are totally abhorable, but slightly better is not good enough when you are trailling by two touchdowns late in the fourth quarter with 2 minutes left on the clock.

America is going to go bankrupt and it has been by design. Even 9-11 was by design. I am sorry but both parties are way too mainstream for me and I mean it from the depths of my soul!



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:00 PM
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c'mon...the GOP will make nicey-nice, and admit that they are working hard to help middle income and poor people, they will get a lot of people of color speaking on every media outlet about how wonderful and great the republicans actually are. and there will be brain-dead voters that will believe them, and once again they will rise like the phoenix to plunder the bottom 98%



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


I'm not really getting your point.

I'm not a fan of unnecessary regulation, who is, but at the same time... I think that much of the US society and business is much less regulated than say Germany, which does pretty well... so... maybe I'm missing your point...?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by longlostbrother
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


I'm not really getting your point.

I'm not a fan of unnecessary regulation, who is, but at the same time... I think that much of the US society and business is much less regulated than say Germany, which does pretty well... so... maybe I'm missing your point...?


How do bring back private business to the states? Much greater tariffs will force them back. It is called protectionism.

How do we recover the $16 trillion in debt? Go after the rockefellers and rothschilds? Does the government have the nerve? Probably not! These two families alone have hundreds of trillions stashed away in offshore trust funds, annoymous bank accounts and money laundering shell companies.

What about not renewing the charter for the federal reserve that is about to expire this year? Again it takes balls of steal to do this. Donations during campaigning from a misinterpretated first amendment promote deep corruption.

Close many of the foreign military bases throughout the world and slash the DOD budget by at least 50%. Again difficult decision.

I could care less about germany or any other country that steals 50% from the middle class to provide mediocre medical coverage. Who goes after the billionares and trillionares who hoarde unfathomable wealth? None!

Cuba and north korea are not looking so bad after all. And that is after 50 years of blockade from the illuminati bankers. America and europe will self-destruct way sooner than any communist nation or muslim nation. Take my words to the bank!



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Please watch roger calero from the socialist workers party during his interview at occupy wall street.

Unfortunately both the socialist workers party and socialist party usa only have ballots in several states, whereas the libertarians and greens have ballots in nearly every state.

It would be good for people to know there are insanely better alternatives to this unbelievably corrupt duopoly.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Please watch roger calero from the socialist workers party during his interview at occupy wall street.

Unfortunately both the socialist workers party and socialist party usa only have ballots in several states, whereas the libertarians and greens have ballots in nearly every state.

It would be good for people to know there are insanely better alternatives to this unbelievably corrupt duopoly.

Call me old fashioned and just a stickler for terms and meanings.....but I'll support a Socialist Party about the same day I hear Satan taking deliveries of Ice down below to serve chilled water to the residents.


No offense intended here but that whole concept and mindset, while just fine elsewhere, is as patently unAmerican as anything I can imagine. Years ago, it wouldn't have even been suggested as a joke and some years prior to that? Well........He'd have needed real security around him to stand in a public crowd in America to extol the virtues of a Socialist World.

Not to put too fine a point on it..but I'd hate to be misunderstood on this either...... I met my share of Socialists in Occupy. When, IF..God Forbid..the time comes, I'll be fighting those people with everything I have and every resource I can muster...to the bitter end if need be. What I saw in those people scared me as an American. I know we disagree here...but just trust that my feelings run as deep or much deeper than yours...equal at best. I'll NEVER be changed on my feelings of Socialist ANYTHING in the United States.

Other countries may do whatever they like. I will fight to maintain a free America to my last breath. (We could debate the meaning of socialism...but I'll pass there too. Cuba, North Korea, China, The Soviet Union and East Europe....these are/were Socialism.) I saw them with all the horror and detail I needed to, to see the inherent EVIL in Socialism as MAN deems to impose it upon others. North Europe and Scandinavia is a fluke and an aberration on Earth. I'm happy the system does work for them there.

(My bad entirely if I misread you... Socialism in *ANY* form WHATSOEVER with America in the same breath is one of those things that at this point? Brings an immediate, visceral and overwhelming response out of me.)

edit on 7-12-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: dropped a couple lines to tone it down.



posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by uwascallywabbit
 


There is no reason for subsidized contraception and abortion. Just more leftist socialist brainwashing. Abortion is healthcare like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre is healthcare.



posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 12:29 AM
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The billionares and trillionares should pay 80% of the taxes
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 




You mean like Warren Buffet who said "Tax me more bro" and then we found out he already had some errr back taxes he had neglected to pay. These people are liars and they know that their money will be safe in tax havens and Swiss bank accounts while the rest of us take up the slack.



posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Please watch roger calero from the socialist workers party during his interview at occupy wall street.

Unfortunately both the socialist workers party and socialist party usa only have ballots in several states, whereas the libertarians and greens have ballots in nearly every state.

It would be good for people to know there are insanely better alternatives to this unbelievably corrupt duopoly.


You are really falling for the lies and disinfo of the Communist Party? Ughhhhhhhhhh



posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 12:39 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 





I will fight to maintain a free America to my last breath.


Me too. I htink a number of people here extolling the virtues of socialism and communism never had to actually live under the regimes where these systems operate, and I think they are not aware of the level of liberty which would be lost, and in fact which has already been lost with implementations of these systems here. I guess they just think that TSA groping them wouldn't be so bad as long as they get their stuff paid for cradle to the grave.





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