Challenge match: Spike Spiegle VS adjensen:Japanese animation vs American animation; which is the be

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posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 06:36 PM
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Hello ATS debates forum, I would like to thank you all, and especially adjensen for giving me the opportunity to debate. I hope not to disappoint too much, and to articulate my points with some form of clearance.

Since this is my first debate, I am glad that it revolves around one of my favorite subjects.
Let us begin.




Japanese animation vs American animation; which is the better medium?


When asking this question, there is another question that arises; what is Japanese animation?





This is Astro Boy, created in 1952 and first broadcast in Japan in 1963, often used as a metaphor when talking about modern Japanese animation.


But when looking at " ANIME " one must dig deeper then the 20th century, Japanese culture has always harbourd a love for art of visual expression.

Painting is the preferred artistic expression in Japan, practiced by amateurs and professionals alike. Until modern times, the Japanese wrote with a brush rather than a pen, and their familiarity with brush techniques has made them particularly sensitive to the values and aesthetics of painting. With the rise of popular culture in the Edo period, a style of woodblock prints called ukiyo-e became a major art form and its techniques were fine tuned to produce colorful prints of everything from daily news to schoolbooks. The Japanese, in this period, found sculpture a much less sympathetic medium for artistic expression; most Japanese sculpture is associated with religion, and the medium's use declined with the lessening importance of traditional Buddhism.






when looking at these two paintings
Now returning to modern day " anime " I would like to point to a few factors regarding post war Japan: Lack of raw resources, metals etc. That are required for film making and such, therefore one of the most prevalent means of exchanging thoughts and ideas was paper, to be specific Manga, a form of comic strip read in Japan.


Manga can be readily turned into Anime, hence creating a vast pool of knowledge that Animators can draw from.


In conclusion, Manga> Anime was created in Japan out of necessity, not for economic reasons like it's American counterpart.





The origins of American animation; necessity or economic?



Clearly they were for economic reasons and not out of necessity, hence I put forth that the greatest inventions in mankind's history were out of NECESSITY and not MONETARY.


The best medium: Japanese animation.


Thank you all for your time.


SS




posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 10:10 PM
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I'd like to start by thanking Spike Spiegle for accepting my debate challenge (I recognized his avatar as "Spike" from the anime Cowboy Bebop and figured he might like the idea) and the ATS Debate Forum for hosting.

 

The question of whether Japanese or American animation is the better medium is a rather broad one, and we'll be looking at a number of aspects of this entertainment type, its history, purpose and product in order to draw our conclusions.

As Spike points out, if there is an iconic American animation figure, it would be Mickey Mouse. He wasn't the first animation, of course, but he would be a character upon which an amazing success story was built. From Steamboat Willie to the American media empire that is Disney is a century long path, but that road was paved with technical advances in animation that have impacted studios around the world, including Japan.

Through it all, though, Walt never wanted to lose perspective…


"I only hope that we don't lose sight of one thing - that it was all started by a mouse."

—Walt Disney


 

Prior to 1937, animation was a bit of a joke in the industry. Whether Betty Boop, Felix the Cat (little known fact -- he was the first balloon in a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, in 1927!) the characters of the Disney Studios, or the fledgling Warner Brothers studios' "Looney Tunes", animation meant "cartoons" and that meant a seven minute farcical short that preceded "real" movies.

Then, Disney took a huge gamble, including mortgaging his own home to finance production, to create the first full length cel animation movie, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. With little comedic content, the film was a complete departure from what animation was assumed to be. A critical and commercial success in its own time, it has continued to be so, named in 1997 as one of only two animated films to the American Film Institute's 100 Greatest Films of all time.

Building on the success of that, Disney embarked on a series of animated features that have spelled "quality animation" for untold millions, both in America and around the world.
  • Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937)
  • Pinocchio (1940)
  • Fantasia (1940)
  • Dumbo (1941)
  • Bambi (1942)
  • Cinderella (1950)
  • Alice in Wonderland (1951)
  • Peter Pan (1953)
  • Lady and the Tramp (1955)
  • Sleeping Beauty (1959)
  • One Hundred and One Dalmatians (1961)

There are others in that timeframe, of course, but these are significant releases, all prior to Spike's Astro Boy in 1963. In addition, beyond Disney, Warners Brothers Studios released a massive amount of shorts featuring Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Elmer Fudd and the rest of the Looney Tunes, though even Bugs wasn't above a bit of "highbrow entertainment":


 

The question arises as to what was the difference between typical animation and Disney's classic works, which caused not only children, but adults, to flock to the theatre to see a film that was drawn, rather than acted. While the animation of Japan often depicts impossible to present situations (such as a witch flying on a broom, or a post-apocalyptic nightmare,) Snow White or Sleeping Beauty were stories that actors could have done.

It turns out that no small part of that was the technical advancements that Walt and his studios were making. Chief among them was the multi-plane camera, which allowed animators to create fascinating scenes, never before seen.

Please take seven minutes and watch this video, where Walt himself describes the technique:


Does Japanese animation owe a huge debt to American techniques, such as the multi-plane camera? Hardly. Japanese animation is famous for its lazy use of fixed backgrounds and even fixed characters. Compare the animation shown in the Disney clip to that used here, in the extremely popular Dragonball Z anime series:


Notice that almost all of the animation is simplistic and crude -- repetitive drawings, or a static drawing with only the character's mouth moving. This is not an art form, such as that developed by the American animation studios, but rather a simplistic rendering. And it is not merely indicative of the one series -- it is endemic in Japanese animation, a point that my esteemed opponent will find difficult to refute.

And, with that, over to Spike...



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 11:26 PM
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I would like to thank adjensen for his well crafted and timely reply.



Now then, my first quibble with what was said is, my esteemed colleague did not answer the question: America's animation economic or a necessity?

The answer I believe is because, well all know it was for economic reasons based on Waltz great " gamble " as my fellow debater pointed out so well.


Next the issue of time, specifically the idea that because something was created before something else it is inherently better, quite the opposite can be proven to be true.


And I quote.


There are others in that timeframe, of course, but these are significant releases, all prior to Spike's Astro Boy in 1963. In addition, beyond Disney, Warners Brothers Studios released a massive amount of shorts featuring Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Elmer Fudd and the rest of the Looney Tunes, though even Bugs wasn't above a bit of "highbrow entertainment":


Most of the works mentioned are no longer shown on television due to the extreme inclusion of racist undertones...

That, if you ask me, is not the work of something timeless some of which as already fallen to obscurity...




Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937) Pinocchio (1940) Fantasia (1940) Dumbo (1941) Bambi (1942) Cinderella (1950) Alice in Wonderland (1951) Peter Pan (1953) Lady and the Tramp (1955) Sleeping Beauty (1959) One Hundred and One Dalmatians (1961)


The above films are all truly great works, no one can deny that but when one looks at sheer volume and different genres Japanese anime clearly wins out again.

On the contrary as pointed out above Disney tends to stay within a very narrow niche, and play it safe.

Action
(the action/fighting is the dominant element)
Darker than Black
Bleach
Canaan
Claymore
Kurokami

Adventure
(lots of traveling around, going to new places)
Spice and Wolf
Pokemon
Kemono no Souja Erin
Tegami Bachi

Comedy
(lots of laughs, or attempts at it anyway, and never gets too serious)
Seto no Hanayome
Love Hina
Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu
Ranma 1/2
Nyan Koi!

Drama
(lots of shocks, suspense, and emotions)
Clannad
Fullmetal Alchemist
Rainbow
Aoi Bungaku
Toradora!

Romance
(romantic relationships are the dominant element)
5 Centimeters per Second
Romeo x Juliet
Nana
Chobits
Revolutionary Girl Utena

Shonen
(all of these also include Action and/or Adventure, target audience of adolescent boys)
Naruto
One Piece
Yu Yu Hakusho
Dragon Ball Z
Shaman King

Shojo
(all of these also include Romance and/or Drama, target audience of adolescent girls)
Cardcaptor Sakura
Kobato
Fruits Basket
Fushigi Yuugi
Itazurana Kiss

Mecha
(giant anthropomorphic robots are integral to the plot)
Gundam Seed
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
Eureka 7
Evangelion
Escaflowne

Sci-fi
(advanced technology, aliens and/or outer space, futuristic worlds)
Digimon
Eden of the East
To Aru Kagaku no Railgun
Summer Wars
Tenchi Muyo!

Fantasy
(magic worlds, monsters, magical powers)
Record of Lodoss War
Shakugan no Shana
Slayers
Sailor Moon

Supernatural
(ghosts and poltergeist, demons, spirits and gods)
Bakemonogatari
Mushishi
Kannagi
Kara no Kyoukai
Inuyasha

Mystery
(characters spend the majority of the series trying to solve one or more mysteries or other “unknowns”)
Noir
Sola
Durarara!!
Death Note

Horror
(lots of gore, blood baths, and nightmarish stuff)
Dance in the Vampire Bund
Elfen Lied
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
Shikabane Hime

Slice-of-Life
(lack of all the other genres except for perhaps Comedy and Romance)
Azumanga Daioh
Chi’s Sweet Home
Ichigo Mashimaro
K-ON!

Parody
(almost always a Comedy too, much of the humor is derived from gags and parody)
Excel Saga
Hayate no Gotoku!
Hetalia
Lucky Star

Sports/Tournament
(the main plot involves the characters competing in games and tournaments)
Angelic Layer
Prince of Tennis
Yu-Gi-Oh!
Hikaru no Go

And I could go on...But I will spare ATS that burden



Regarding the last two videos, I felt that was...not a good comparison at all, I too can take two videos of my choosing, one of better quality the other not so good...

Disney animation 1990:


Production IG 2012:


Granted, both video are from different times, but so were adjensen's and that's my point.

They prove nothing.




Notice that almost all of the animation is simplistic and crude -- repetitive drawings, or a static drawing with only the character's mouth moving. This is not an art form, such as that developed by the American animation studios, but rather a simplistic rendering. And it is not merely indicative of the one series -- it is endemic in Japanese animation, a point that my esteemed opponent will find difficult to refute.


I love how you choose a DragonBallZ clip for a display of "anime" well done sir, as it is known for it's long story and terrible animations.

But.

As I've shown above with my overly long list, it is but a drop in the bucket.

Thank you.



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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I'd like to begin with a quick joke:

Q: How many Dragonball-Z characters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A: Only one, but it takes three episodes to do it.


Okay, that's probably only funny to Spike and me, so we'll move along.

 

A very long time ago, I was reading MacUser magazine and in the back was a tiny ad for a product called "MacRenderman", which touted the ability to do "Computer Generated Imagery" for animation on a desktop computer. That had previously only been possible on expensive dedicated machines designed for the task, though as it was still a rather pricey purchase, and I wasn't particularly interested in producing animation, I passed, though I did take note of the company that had written the software.

Pixar.

In the last post, we looked at "old school" American animation, particularly at the often majestic work of classic Disney animators. Unfortunately, with the death of Walt and the retirement of his core team (the "Nine Old Men" who, with Walt, changed the face of animation forever,) the Disney Studios went through a slow period with a series of less inspired, though still commercially successful, films. At the same time, Disney branched out into other areas of film, blending animation with live action (as in Mary Poppins) and using computer generated animation in films such as The Black Hole and Tron.

But in the early 1990s, three changes occurred in the American animation industry that heralded a new Golden Age of American animation. First, the investment and direction in the animation division of Walt Disney Studios by Michael Eisner began to pay off in spades as a series of wildly popular, critically acclaimed and commercially successful films brought the animated feature back to the fore of entertainment, worldwide.
  • The Little Mermaid (1989)
  • Beauty and the Beast (1991)
  • Aladdin (1992)
  • The Lion King (1994)
  • Pocahontas (1995)
  • The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1996)
  • Hercules (1997)
  • Mulan (1998)
  • Tarzan (1999)

An amazing run of production, which continues to this day. This year's Wreck-It Ralph has an 86% "Fresh" rating on Rotten Tomatoes and, as of 2 December 2012, has earned $202,184,813 worldwide.


 

The second change was the departure of Jeffrey Katzenberg from Disney to form a new animation studio at DreamWorks SKG. Unlike prior Disney competitors in feature length animation, Katzenberg resolved to make quality films, and DreamWorks animation has, indeed, created an impressive portfolio, including Antz, Kung Fu Panda, Madagascar and, oh yes, this guy:


 

Finally, we have those software geeks at the company that was spun off from George Lucas' Industrial Light and Magic back in the 1980s. While he was on "forced hiatus" from Apple, Steve Jobs personally funded the spin off, including the hiring of filmmaker John Lassiter, whose job it would be to create demonstrations of the types of animation that Pixar's Renderman program could create. And, just like Katzenberg at DreamWorks, Lassiter created an animation studio that has succeeded beyond expectation. Though the company still produces Renderman, it is far better known for its animation feature films:
  • Toy Story (1995)
  • A Bug's Life (1998)
  • Monsters, Inc. (2001)
  • Finding Nemo (2003)
  • Cars (2006)
  • Ratatouille (2007)
  • WALL-E (2008)
  • Up (2009)
  • Brave (2012)

Pixar films are universally acclaimed, and have earned over $7.7 billion worldwide.



Japanese feature animation? Not so much.

According to Box Office Mojo, the top 42 anime feature film releases have earned $236,741,095 worldwide, and if we remove the top two, that number plummets to $107 million, less than ONE typical Pixar film earns. And those two top films, which comprised over half of the Japanese animation market? Pokemon films, the first of which nets a 14% "Fresh" RT rating. One critic said of the movie:


Adults may cringe at the preachy heavy-handedness and the extremely limited motion animation that sets the art form back a couple of generations.

-Michael Rechtshaffed, Hollywood Reporter (Source)

American feature animation -- over a century of technical innovation, beloved characters and worldwide commercial and critical success. Japanese feature animation -- crude exploitation that appeals to a extremely limited audience that doesn't mind the lack of quality.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:33 AM
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Hello and welcome back all, I would like to take the time to thank adjensen for this debate and the forum for hosting, it's been great fun.

For my last post I should like to simply showcase Japanese animation, in all it's glory.

I will be presenting four videos for you all, four short trailers each carefully selected from different genres, with solid thought provoking Ideas and story telling behind every one.


Unlike American animation, which regardless of technical advances still rarely delves into anything deeper then the " Disney hero archetype".


(11 minutes total)

I will be starting with my personal favorite: CowboyBebop, gained critical success abroad and has been gifted with the ability to " breakthrough " to western audiences the world over.

"One ship, one crew, one destiny" indeed. If you had to sum anime up into two words, it would undoubtedly be "Cowboy Bebop." It's a 26 episode series that redefines what animation is and what it can do. The character development is beyond comparison and the voice acting is unforgettable. If you see only one anime in your life, make it this one. I can't sum it up and give it the credit it deserves, but what I can say, is that it is the most compelling story to be turned into an anime that will have you laughing, and the more sensitive may even cry, but you will get goosebumps. All I can say is, don't forget to watch this before you die, it is worth it and then some.


Next is Princess Mononoke, another critically acclaimed work I might add, wherein an epic and symbolic struggle take place between the encroachment of civilization, technology and mother nature.
The film also received a 94% positive review on rottentomatoes.com.

This $20 million animated adventure/fantasy quickly became the highest grossing Japanese film in Japanese film history (making $150 million in Japan during its first seven months). Set in the 14th century, the ecology-themed epic was directed by Hayao Miyazaki whose previous films were acquired by Disney for U.S. distribution plus other territories. Princess Mononoke depicts a mystical battle between Animal Gods of the forest and humans during Japan's Muromachi Period. Young A#aka receives a


Third and certainly another of my favorites, Ghost In The Shell: a cyber detective story that goes into such questions as; what is AI?, what is the soul?, if you give a machine advanced AI should we treat it as human?
Also with a 94% positive review on rottentomatoes.com.

In the year 2029, the world has become interconnected by a vast electronic network that permeates every aspect of life. That same network also becomes a battlefield for Tokyo's Section Nine security force, which has been charged with apprehending the master hacker known only as the Puppet Master. Spearheading the investigation is Major Motoko Kusanagi, who -- like many in her department -- is a cyborg officer, far more powerful than her human appearance would suggest.

This clip also showcases the seamless meld of the 2D and 3D.

Last but certainly not least, Berserk: everything, anyone could ever want from an epic fantasy/ adventure, with such an original and mind blowing plot twist that it's nearly impossible to explain...
Another stunning review on rottentomatoes.com with 98% positive.

A new king reigns supreme throughout Midland, but he achieved his power through heinous means. His men terrorize the town, and nothing stands in their way -- until the arrival of the mysterious Black Swordsman. Meanwhile, a young fighter named Guts meets up with the charismatic Captain Griffith and his band of mercenaries. Their combined strength means interesting things for Midland...




Masters of perspective, the visual and the weaving of deep questions into beautiful tales...

Japanese animation.



Thank you to adjensen and the Debate Forum for hosting.

SS



posted on Dec, 8 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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Before proceeding with my final argument, I need to make a correction to my last statement. In the "Box Office Mojo" citation, I included the word "worldwide", which is incorrect -- the website was a bit confusing, and the box office proceeds reflect the domestic (American) market only. My apologies in not noticing the error earlier.

 

In his closing argument, Spike notes four well regarded Japanese animated films. That there are a handful of high quality films coming from Japanese studios is not in question -- I myself am a huge fan of Studio Ghibli and director Hayao Miyazaki and have been nearly twenty years. Rather, the question is whether Japanese animation, at large, is a better medium than its American counterpart, and I think that showing the few exceptional works, while dismissing the dreck which is the vast majority of Japanese output, is a bit disingenuous.

Therefore, to conclude this debate, let us descend into the dreck for a bit…

 

One of the reasons that I am well versed in Japanese animation is that my daughter is batty for it (she's also big on Japanese cinema in general, fortunately that is not the subject of the debate) and whenever she's home from university, I am "treated" to day long marathons of anime.

Let's start with Ouran High School Host Club, trailer below. As we can see, the usual trademarks of Japanese animation are present -- static backgrounds, static characters, lots of screaming, unrealistic portrayals of the human figure. Oh, but there are some new ones, as well. The show tells of a group of wealthy high school gigolos, including identical twins in an incestuous relationship with each other, as they exploit a teenage girl who owes them money.

As I pointed out in my last argument, the most successful anime feature films of all time were Pokemon films. Here's a lovely example of this high quality animation series, and, in what must be the height of laziness, one of the characters is a weirdy beardy man, so they don't even have to draw the mouth animation. And don't even get me started on Pokemon's mutant stepchildren, the even worse Digimon and Yu-Gi Oh! franchises, whose anime serves largely to sell crappy plastic toys and overpriced playing cards.

One of the telltale signs of Japanese animation is the bizarre representation of human beings, particularly women. Often drawn with exaggerated "doe like" eyes, females bear an eerie resemblance to cats, while male figures are generally drawn realistically. In addition, story lines often give the impression that the writers view women as an alien species, which they only have sporadic contact with. As an example of all these factors, I present Rumbling Hearts.


 

Finally, no review of Japanese animation can be complete without a look at a very controversial, and almost exclusively Japanese variation, Hentai, or pornographic cartoons. This is a huge industry in Japan, and a significant amount of the output of Japanese animation studios cannot be cited or posted in this thread, as it violates ATS Terms and Conditions, often in an extreme way. Hentai is all too often obsessed with deviant sexual behaviour, including pedophelia, incest, rape and violence against women. This is most adroitly manifested in a particularly repugnant genre of Japanese anime called "Tentacle Rape", in which women are violently violated by monsters, often being killed after being raped. Believe it or not, this represents mainstream entertainment in Japan -- visitors to the country are often shocked to see people reading and watching this stuff on the train.

 

So, in conclusion, we have seen that the American animation studios are credited with legitimatizing animation -- turning "cartoons" into Academy Award winning feature length films, which have stunned, amazed and endeared audiences for over 75 years. Pioneers such as Walt Disney, Jeffrey Katzenberg and John Lassiter have brought technical innovation that has moved us from simplistic drawings to the grandeur that is films like Beauty and the Beast, Shrek and WALL-E.

Meanwhile, the Japanese industry has produced a handful of films that begin to approach the quality of Disney, Dreamworks and Pixar, but the remainder is marred by crude animation techniques, repetitive and slow moving story telling, and often bizarre and repugnant subject material.

It should come as no surprise that, worldwide, American animation receives critical acclaim and commercial success, while their Japanese counterparts are found to be lacking in both areas.

 

A big thank you to Spike Spiegel for an interesting debate, and to the ATS Debate Forum for hosting, reading and judging.



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 11:24 AM
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Judgments:





This was a fun debate that I thought could have gone on for much longer and still been entertaining. Videos on both sides were fantastic.

Spike opens with the argument that Japanese animation is a development of artistic necessity and not economic motives. I give a minor critique here for not trying to drive this point home through the final post, although it certainly could have been contested.

On the other hand, adjensen opened by laying the foundation for an argument focused on the accomplishments of Disney. An argument that carries throughout the debate.

Adjensen may have missed an opportunity in the second round when Spike claims Japan produced a wider range of genre. Adjensen could have mentioned a few of the TV series such as the Simpsons or Family Guy as a counter for Spike's claim that Disney is a one trick pony. I give adjensen much credit, though, for showing the success of Disney/Pixar that started in the 90's and continues.

Spike's final post showed that Japanese animation is fully capable of advanced animation beyond the anime style.

In the end, there is one argument here that is undeniable and has no counter from the other side: the incredible success of Disney/Pixar at the box office. Adjensen was able to convince me that America wins the animation debate, based on a consistent line of quantitative accomplishment based argument.

Congratulations to adjensen on the win, and to both for a fun read.








Judgment Verdict

For the first half of the debate both sides consistently recognized Disney as an American animation company without acknowledging the fact that Disney was only a part of American animation culture.

This worked against Adjensen, however he did very well in acknowledging other companies in his second post, working greatly in his favor as it showed how animation branched off from the traditional Disney method.

Adjensen also acknowledges American animation being a more economically successful medium to use.

Spike brings up in his first post that Japanese anime was built largely around a method which was a necessity due to little resource, post war. This leads me to assume economic success is not what Spike is measuring what the better medium is on, however it hasn't been made clear.

Japanese anime, not being financially driven would mean a more entertaining show was on the agenda of the production companies.

Adjensen had me convinced until it appeared to me that he contradicted himself. One of his statements involving the crudeness and simplicity around Japanese animation, showed that he was judging the medium on its presentation. In his video about multi-plane cameras and Spike's video about Disney methods in an interview in 1990 also showed that Disney had rather crude and simplistic methods of production. As adjensen points out the success of the the Disney classics, he indicates that Simplicity is not necessarily an indication of a good medium.

Adjensen also only uses one example of Japanese anime to prove his point of crudeness, forgetting to mention DragonBallZ was very popular and financially successful, in which he measured the success of American animation. This is shown in his statement about Pixar films and their generated revenue.

The final two post made by each candidates are interesting and both being primarily based on examples of Japanese animation examples.

After reading the debate a few times over I am able to reach a verdict.
Both sides have presented a very strong argument.

I however believe adjensen needed to have more information about the American animation culture rather than looking at the flaws of Japanese animation, although many of his points were correct, valid and persuasive.

Spike also mentioned a lot about the flaws of American animation rather than looking at Japanese animation, however I believe he focused more on pointing out his sides pros rather than the other sides cons and made many valid points surrounding he aspects of Japanese animation.

To conclude I am in favor of Spike Spiegle's argument.



The Judgment was a tie. The tie was broken by getting a third judge...



posted on Dec, 12 2012 @ 11:25 AM
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Ok..

First off I would like to say this debate was much more interesting than what I was expecting. When I read the title, I will be honest and say I groaned a bit and was expecting this to be a very difficult read and I was expecting to have to force myself to remain interested and read every single word. To be my surprise, this was not the case at all. I found this debate to be rather informative and fun. So for that reason alone I want to congratulate both participants on a job well done.

Round 1:
I felt that Spike really placed all his eggs into one basket by attempting to narrow his whole argument down to one simple question. "The origins of American animation; necessity or economic? ". Even by answering this question, it does nothing to prove which form of anime is the best or why it is the best. As an example, lets take an invention we are all familiar with- the hot water heater. That is not an invention created out of necessity. It was created for monetary gain and convenience. Yet it is still a wonderful invention that is enjoyed by billions of people and I do not think anyone would want to go back to the old days of heating water with fire.

Adjensen however did a fantastic job of giving us a history lesson on animation. I found his post to be very informative, interesting, and he did an amazing job of showing the differences between Japanese Animation vs American animation and pointing out exactly what separates the two.

Round 1: Adjensen

Round 2
I feel like Spike missed an opportunity to counter points made by Adjensen. He gives us a whole list of various genres of Japanese animation, but fails to address the point of quality that was the heart of adjensen's rebuttal in round 1. Obviously when it comes to genres Japanese animation covers so many various areas- but by ignoring the issue of quality, he did nothing to prove Japanese animation is better than American animation and the videos posted really seemed rather cherry picked.

Adjensen again gives us a great history lesson (again), and even showed us how animation began to play a part in live acting movies as well, building off his previous points of quality. Very well done.

Round 2: Adjensen.

Round 3
Again it seemed that Spike ignored the issue of quality which is at the heart of Adjensen's argument and even by posting some of his favorites, he actually proved Adjensen's whole point from Round 1 when he said, "Notice that almost all of the animation is simplistic and crude -- repetitive drawings, or a static drawing with only the character's mouth moving. This is not an art form, such as that developed by the American animation studios, but rather a simplistic rendering. And it is not merely indicative of the one series -- it is endemic in Japanese animation, a point that my esteemed opponent will find difficult to refute. "

So as I watched the videos Spike posted, what I saw was exactly what Adjensen said it would be. Simplistic and crude. Fixed characters with only a moving mouth.

Adjensen really finished strong in his final post. Again pointing out and highlighting the real differences between Japanese Animation and American animation and even brings up the more controversial areas of Japanese animation that is often overlooked in such a discussion. Again focusing on quality and how that quality translated into success, which is a point that Spike failed to address entirely and even inadvertently highlighted himself to start round 3.

Round 3 and winner: Adjensen.





Adjensen wins the Debate.

Thanks to Spike for a really solid first debate and thanks to the judges for such detailed and thoughtful work.





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