Originally posted by wingsfan
. Sure there is historical claims and what not.

In truth Mexico has very little claim to the land. Besides what i noted earlier about Mexicans having no ancestral ties to the southwest it was Spain not Mexico that conquered the territory . The name for the land merely turned from New Spain to Mexico once the the Spanish colonist revolted and Spain lost its power over the region

Prior the Americans gaining the land there were already many documented uprisings among the populace who didn't want to belong under Mexico's control and on top of that the Mexican Constitution makes no note of the southwest belonging to them.

Really the only claim Mexico has was a brief name change. But seeing as how they have no ancestral roots there nor did they actually use military power to acquire the land their claims are rather ludicrous.


On a related note I'm a descendant of the Spanish colonists who laid claim to the Northern New mexico region and I'm not demanding my land back or wishing it was still under Spain's control etc,etc. Hell New Mexico was acquired rather late by the Yankees and the town my folks were from was so isolated they still spoke archaic Castilian as a FIRST language. But my grandfather adapted when he left his hometown and learned to speak English fluently and was an extremely patriotic flag waving american.

Originally posted by paganini

Originally posted by wingsfan
. Sure there is historical claims and what not.

In truth Mexico has very little claim to the land. Besides what i noted earlier about Mexicans having no ancestral ties to the southwest it was Spain not Mexico that conquered the territory . The name for the land merely turned from New Spain to Mexico once the the Spanish colonist revolted and Spain lost its power over the region

Prior the Americans gaining the land there were already many documented uprisings among the populace who didn't want to belong under Mexico's control and on top of that the Mexican Constitution makes no note of the southwest belonging to them.

Really the only claim Mexico has was a brief name change. But seeing as how they have no ancestral roots there nor did they actually use military power to acquire the land their claims are rather ludicrous.


On a related note I'm a descendant of the Spanish colonists who laid claim to the Northern New mexico region and I'm not demanding my land back or wishing it was still under Spain's control etc,etc. Hell New Mexico was acquired rather late by the Yankees and the town my folks were from was so isolated they still spoke archaic Castilian as a FIRST language. But my grandfather adapted when he left his hometown and learned to speak English fluently and was an extremely patriotic flag waving american.

edit on 7-12-2012 by paganini because: (no reason given)

except for the fact that mexicans are descendants of the spanish AND various native tribes who most certainly could claim ancestral roots
so if youre playing by those silly rules then yes they do have more of a claim to the land than others
i do agree that communication is a problem that should be dealt with but i also think there should be a new global language
and we should do away with ALL culture and customs because we have much better means of transferring knowledge from one generation to the next and the only purpose they serve in the modern world is to divide
(they should all be documented in their entirety and studied by all but there is no reason to practice them any longer)
i also doubt the sincerity of the OPs claims that they were speaking only spanish.... i find it highly unlikely that you were the only english speaking caucasian in that building and that you were spoken to only in spanish it seems far more likely you found it unpleasant that a lot of people were conversing in spanish and you couldnt understand what they are saying and have in your mind an exaggerated rendition of the events

Originally posted by sirhumperdinkso youre going to sit there and claim that there was never any mating between the spanish and apache, comanche, hopi etc. etc.?

No i didn't claim anything of the sort. You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I am noting that the reconquest movement isn't very big on the whole celebrating anything Spaniard. They are more often than not lumped in as "white devils". Though with that being said while there was mixing there are still many Mexicans alive today who are largely or entirely of native stock. These people are largely what you see flocking to the movement and its revisionist history.

what I'm getting at is the whole it was mexico's first crowd have a habit of demonizing the Spanish one minute then turning around and laying claim to the peoples accomplishments when its convenient for them.

Originally posted by sirhumperdinkand again this is all nonsense nobody should have claim to the land and these arbitrary lines of division are beyond childish

How is it nonsense? Pretty much everything in the animal kingdom carves out territory for itself and its kin.

Originally posted by paganini

Originally posted by sirhumperdinkso youre going to sit there and claim that there was never any mating between the spanish and apache, comanche, hopi etc. etc.?

No i didn't claim anything of the sort. You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I am noting that the reconquest movement isn't very big on the whole celebrating anything Spaniard. They are more often than not lumped in as "white devils". Though with that being said while there was mixing there are still many Mexicans alive today who are largely or entirely of native stock. These people are largely what you see flocking to the movement and its revisionist history.

what I'm getting at is the whole it was mexico's first crowd have a habit of demonizing the Spanish one minute then turning around and laying claim to the peoples accomplishments when its convenient for them.

Originally posted by sirhumperdinkand again this is all nonsense nobody should have claim to the land and these arbitrary lines of division are beyond childish

How is it nonsense? Pretty much everything in the animal kingdom carves out territory for itself and its kin.

yeah pretty much everything in the animal kingdom #s while it walks/swims/crawls, doesnt have a written language, and live like.... well animals
so youre going to advocate behaving more animalistic?

and you did indeed claim that

your exact words were
"And none of those native Mexican tribes occupied the southwest. The Aztec empire never pushed up that far north. So again the tribes who actually are native to the region would take offense to Mexicans, even those of Indian stock claiming it's theirs. "
the apache comanche and hopi (and many others) were in fact native to the southwest
or you could be thinking of it in terms of what mexicos current border is wich would be....well... silly
(or maybe under the assumption these peoples werent pushed south into what is now mexico.... which again would be silly)

Originally posted by sirhumperdink
yeah pretty much everything in the animal kingdom #s while it walks/swims/crawls, doesnt have a written language, and live like.... well animals
so youre going to advocate behaving more animalistic?

No I'm advocating we adhere to a behavior that's ingrained in human kind. Not adhere to some pseudo philosophical uptopian nonsense of a borderless world.

Originally posted by sirhumperdinkand you did indeed claim that

No I did not. I had a brief absence from here and upon returning its as if the reading comprehension level dropped dramatically on this board . It gets tiresome having to repeat whats clearly there but lets try again.

"

Originally posted by sirhumperdinkthe apache comanche and hopi (and many others) were in fact native to the southwest
or you could be thinking of it in terms of what mexicos current border is wich would be....well... silly

Yes and neither the Apache Comanche or Hopi are considered to be Mexican Indians. If we want to argue over whos land it "truly " is or who was here first then it belongs to the remaining descendants of these peoples and again using this form of reasoning the people of mexico do not factor into the equation in the slightest as they are not native to these territories. They were a foreign people regardless of whether they are Indians, mestizos or Spanish. and regardless over what past or current border we examine.

Understand?

Originally posted by paganini

Yes and neither the Apache Comanche or Hopi are considered to be Mexican Indians.

Understand?

good god man how can you be that dense?
they are tribes that were not native to what is now mexico
that does not in fact mean that the current population of mexico does not include descendants of these people

understand?

as for your other comments you can believe what you want but things change and to advocate anything simply because thats how it has been is folly in the extreme (you understand that you are essentially arguing for the stagnation of social development and that if everybody thought this way we would still be living in caves with social structures no larger or more complex than family groups right?)

Originally posted by paganini
good god man how can you be that dense?

they are tribes that were not native to what is now mexico
that does not in fact mean that the current population of mexico does not include descendants of these people

understand?

No seeing as how you're seemingly fabricating history as you go and are running around in circles with your argument. But yes suggest the idea that maybe someone running around in Mexico may be partially descended from one of those tribes. Nothing helps and argument like a giant maybe.

Originally posted by paganinias for your other comments you can believe what you want but things change and to advocate anything simply because thats how it has been is folly in the extreme

The problem with this change you speak of is the proponents of it never offer a logical explanation for how it will occur and function correctly. Hence why i cant take it seriously. We have the concept of borders and territory and ownership for a reason.

Originally posted by paganini
I'm sure like many Americans hes aware of peace treaties and promises , disease ridden blankets being given etc,etc. The thing is what battle was fought fairly......... ever? Every nations built on blood shed and betrayl. We have been doing this to each other since the dawn of our species.

I consider a fair battle one in which women and children and unarmed people aren't killed, and biological warfare isn't used against people who don't even understand such a concept. I'm not saying that was the only unfair battle in history, there were many others all around the world, but there are people on here who won't even admit that it was underhanded and deceitful. That's my whole point.

It is funny that you are angry, think just a little more. You are in a American government facility on a land that used to be mexican but really belongs to native americans. Nothing is the same and cant be becouse we are all growing together and changing, adapting. What would a native american think of you? You are not a racist, you just ignorant.

You heard Spanish in a border state?

Who would have thought?

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Lowes stores have huge spanish signs everywhere, even here where I live. I asked the manager(who I know) and he said he didn't understand it either but it comes from the top. It's like....they're preparing us for something........

I have a really annoying problem, im Scottish, and when i phone up an automated phone line to pay some bills, the computer on the other side doesnt understand me unless i talk with a English accent, my family thinks this is funny when they sit and listen to me, but i just find it frustrating. I talk the same language for goodness sake !!!

Originally posted by timetothink
The melting pot analogy has no standing when looked at by the founding fathers standards, they were huge skeptics of immigration.

edit on 6-12-2012 by timetothink because: (no reason given)

You do realise the crushing irony of that I hope? The 'founding fathers' were how many generations away from their immigrant ancestors? Come to think of it, weren't their slaves also immigrants? Oh, no, a slave was treated as somewhat less than a person, weren't they?