New No Moving Parts Propulsion System.

reply to post by EdSurly


Okay if you believe that can you tell me the gauge wire you have on your battery terminals and the length of them. I would say the wires to your batttery are rated for around 5000 watts and you are saying you can put 12000 through them?

Originally posted by dmsuse
reply to post by EdSurly

 

Okay if you believe that can you tell me the gauge wire you have on your battery terminals and the length of them. I would say the wires to your batttery are rated for around 5000 watts and you are saying you can put 12000 through them?

No, if your talking watts they can handle much, much more than 12,000. Diesel light trucks usually utilize two batteries in the 800+ CCA range with the same OO gauge wire. In that instance your talking 24,000 watts as they are wired in series the total amperage is doubled.....1,800+. Large over the road trucks will use 4 12 volt batteries in a series/parallel arangement for a 24 volt starting system. Many agriculture farm tractors will use 2-4 6 volt batteries in parallel depending if they need a 12 or 24 volt system. Those 6 volt batteries are huge.....double a large car battery in size for the increase in amperage needed. I dont think you realize how much current a lead-acid battery is capable of providing......google it. Or use bing

One more important point. The size of a battery cable is a function of the current it needs to carry, not the wattage. I could double the voltage, halve the current (by increasing the starter resistance) and decrease the size of the battery cable needed all while carrying the same wattage.

reply to post by EdSurly

Originally posted by dmsuse
reply to post by EdSurly

Okay if you believe that can you tell me the gauge wire you have on your battery terminals and the length of them. I would say the wires to your batttery are rated for around 5000 watts and you are saying you can put 12000 through them?

No, if your talking watts they can handle much, much more than 12,000. Watts is simply volts x amps. Diesel light trucks usually utilize two batteries in the 800+ CCA range with the same OO gauge wire. In that instance your talking 24,000 watts as they are wired in series the total amperage is doubled.....1,800+. Large over the road trucks will use 4 12 volt batteries in a series/parallel arangement for a 24 volt starting system. Many agriculture farm tractors will use 2-4 6 volt batteries in parallel depending if they need a 12 or 24 volt system. Those 6 volt batteries are huge.....double a large car battery in size for the increase in amperage needed. I dont think you realize how much current a lead-acid battery is capable of providing......google it. Or use bing

Actually, you are right - and wrong. Wire is not rated in the wattage it can carry. It is rated in the current or amperage it can carry. If a wire can carry 100 amps then it can transmit 100X100 or 10.000 watts at 100 volts. The same wire carrying 100 amps at 200 volts can transmit 20,000 watts.

It is the ability of a wire to carry more wattage at higher voltage than it can at lower voltage that is taken advantage of in high voltage transmission lines. An uninsulated wire that can carry 100 amps in open air can, at 300,000 volts, carry 100X300,000 watts or a total of 30,000,000 watts. The only requirement for handling the higher voltage is better insulation or in the case of high voltage transmission lines, better standoff insulators to prevent arcing to the transmission tower or ground.

And since heat is the real enemy when high current is being carried by a wire, a wire that is rated for a continuous 100 amps can in fact carry many times that load for short periods of time. If a battery can provide 600 CCA and the starter needs 500 amps to start the motor the wires from the battery to the starter can be rated lower than 500 amps because they will only carry that amperage for a few seconds at a time.

If you were to set up a system where the same wire that feeds the starter 500 amps for a short period is called on to provide that same amperage for an extended time the wire would quickly overheat and melt it's insulation.

To carry it a little farther, fuses are blown by heat rather than amperage. A fuse element rated at 10 amps will carry 10 amps continuously but overheat and melt, thus interrupting the circuit, if a little more than 10 amps is run through it. The higher the amperage over the fuses rating the sooner it will blow.

reply to post by happykat39


Exactly...so where was I wrong? Anyway, the reason's you cite is exactly the reason that we will start to see higher voltage automobile electrical systems in the near future. 42 volt electrical systems will be the norm in the near future (the next 3-5 years). Auto manufacturers will see a large savings in wire/copper costs on their new cars. More voltage, less current = the same wattage to run accessories but less copper is needed because of the lessened amperage load = more cost savings for the manufacturers.

Originally posted by EdSurly
reply to post by happykat39

 

Exactly...so where was I wrong? Anyway, the reason's you cite is exactly the reason that we will start to see higher voltage automobile electrical systems in the near future. 42 volt electrical systems will be the norm in the near future (the next 3-5 years). Auto manufacturers will see a large savings in wire/copper costs on their new cars. More voltage, less current = the same wattage to run accessories but less copper is needed because of the lessened amperage load = more cost savings for the manufacturers.

Look at the following quoted statement from the reply in question and then I will explain.

Okay if you believe that can you tell me the gauge wire you have on your battery terminals and the length of them. I would say the wires to your batttery are rated for around 5000 watts and you are saying you can put 12000 through them?

Your error was in saying that a wire was rated in watts. In fact, there is no theoretical limit to the wattage that can be transmitted over a wire, any wire, any size. There is only one absolute limit on the electrical capacity of a wire and that is the current, or amperage, that it can carry without overheating and melting.

While in actual practice the voltage we can apply to a wire is limited by our ability to insulate it from ground, in theory there is no such limit. That means that we could, if we could properly insulate it, apply infinite voltage to any wire. Since wattage is the product of amperage times voltage that means that any wire that is carrying a current, even if only a small fraction of an amp, is capable of transmitting infinite wattage (infinity times anything is still infinity). The only limit to this is OUR ABILITY to insulate the wire sufficiently to prevent arcing to ground. A nit to pick,yes; but technically an important nit.

And just one final note for the alpha geeks among us, and yes I am one...

There are different levels of infinity. They are not differentiated by their final result which is always infinity but rather by their approach curve to infinity. If you are graphing a formula that includes infinity as one of the axes the curve of the graph, or more accurately the slope at any given point along the graph, will be different for different values being input for the starting point of the graph. However the slope will soon become so close to the same for any input as the plot nears infinity that it would become difficult, if not impossible, to express it mathematically, but it would still exist until infinity is reached at which point the slope itself becomes infinite.

reply to post by happykat39


Uhm.....I wasnt the one that was stating that wires were rated in watts. If you look at the original quoted paragraph at the top of this page you will see I was quoting an earlier poster (dmsuse) that stated that falshood, not I. I understand power law....and Ohms law. Its the only math I'm good at :-)

Originally posted by EdSurly
reply to post by happykat39

 

Uhm.....I wasnt the one that was stating that wires were rated in watts. If you look at the original quoted paragraph at the top of this page you will see I was quoting an earlier poster (dmsuse) that stated that falshood, not I. I understand power law....and Ohms law. Its the only math I'm good at :-)

edit on 9-12-2012 by EdSurly because: (no reason given)

Sometimes it is difficult and confusing to backtrack on who said what when multiple generations of quoted replies are involved.

Correction noted and apology issued.

I am also very well versed in electrical math having operated my own industrial engineering and repair service in the Chicago metro market for 25 years.

peace
happykat

I am also very well versed in electrical math having operated my own industrial engineering and repair service in the Chicago metro market for 25 years.

peace
happykat

Nice! Hope business is doing well. Automotive repair is my trade.

Originally posted by EdSurly

I am also very well versed in electrical math having operated my own industrial engineering and repair service in the Chicago metro market for 25 years.

peace
happykat

Nice! Hope business is doing well. Automotive repair is my trade.

I abandoned my business in 2003 due to rising insurance costs and weakening economy. I took a job with one of my customers whose Illinois plant I serviced for 20 of the 25 years I was in business. I became the maintenance and manufacturing engineer for them and was responsible for their plants in four states as well as the 5 divisions located at the Marietta Ga campus where I moved to when I took the position. I retired from that position in the fall of 2006 and now can sleep as late as I want to.

Originally posted by crimsongod21
reply to post by beckybecky

 

Yes all of those things can produce large amounts of amperage, but to get the kind of thrust you are talking about the weight of said items would be on the very heavy side of the scale. Assuming you are using a liquid or jell that does not become highly flammable or combustable upon having a charge shot through it, you would still be using a large part of your cargo capacity just to store the jell and battery, That being said charging of the battery could be accomplished using solar power while in close enough proximity to the sun to be effective but what happens when we dare to move further away from the sun and solar particles become less dense?

i fear the idea is being side tracked by trivial engineering issues.

for example to re-charge a flat car battery you can buy a $40 charger which steps down the mains voltage in your house and output 1000's of amps to charge your car battery quickyl.

remember amps x voltage = wattage.

the electrolytic engine can be scaled to any size from a 1 inch cube to a something bigger a saturn rocket.

normal rockets burn reactants to generate heat and therefore pressure which is translated into kinetic energy of exhaust gases which by newton law of reaction generate thrust in the opposite direction.

due to very few moving parts it can be made lighter.no fire or burning is involved.no temperatures are involved.no complex pumps.

no pressurized storage of combustible gases,etc.

basically the pressure in a sealed chamber is allowed to build up by electrolysis to very high values and released in a controlled manner as exhaust output at very high velocity WITHOUT heat.

the current is maintained to keep the pressure constant in the chamber.