WTC destruction, the Leftover candidates, Pro&Contra Arguments.

reply to post by LaBTop


I am highly impressed that you have drawn a link to Michael Riconsciuto, and doings connected to said person. I look at Riconsciuto as being like the Forrest Gump of the conspiracy scene. This is slightly OT, but definitely valid in my oinion.

If one looks at the cast revolving around Michael Riconsciuto, one quickly notices that a lot of prominent names and incidents appear too regularly. These include Operation Paperclip, the assassination of JFK, the Maury Island UFO incident (amongst others), the chemical/drug manufacturing and distribution facilities of the early counter-culture in Haight Ashbury, the continuation of MK-ULTRA, and the Mujahadeen / Aghan war which more or less bankrupted the Soviet Union and gave Tim Osman (aka Osama Bin Laden) a heads up as potential scapegoat for the WTC attacks. Riconsciuto claims to have helped develop fuel-air explosives at the Cabazon Indian Reservation, home of another conspiracy (which can be found here on ATS) regarding a triple murder.

Riconsciuto knows the names and is currently conveniently locked away in prison on drug manufacturing charges. He draws a connection from the Nazis to the WTC attacks, and American political dynasties with so far 3 generations of rule (one traded with the Nazis long after it was a no-no, one was head of the CIA and then president, and one came across as a bumbling idiot but was also president of the republic, and he liked reading books about goats upside down in times of national emergency), and there seems no shortage of future politician in this family.

If the name Riconsciuto appears my ears pick up like those of a dog, as I feel he is like thr pin that connects the big amorphous mess of generations of American conspiracies together. I've drifted away from the WTC, but to come back, Riconsciuto knows his explosives well and it would be of no surprise whatsoever to find him connected to the September 11 incident, and the Nazi handlers who seem to have owned his life from an early age.

reply to post by LaBTop

Probably the Kingdome's underground was also not the same as that in New York too. But the sudden thump of 8 huge blocks of concrete smashing in ground level is the huge difference in seismic appearance of that demolition.

You say the WTC reading is not too small. The Kingdome reading is too big.

The reason you give that the Kingdome reading is too high is because of 8 huge concrete blocks thumping the ground.

In principle you are saying that 2 8-ton blocks (16 tons) will produce a larger reading than than 4 4-ton blocks.

I say that the size of the pieces makes no difference. The total weight hitting the ground is 16 tons in both cases.The Richter scale and the others is meant to indicate the energy of the shaking ground. Energy is force times distance. E = Fd.

The energy of 2 8-ton rocks is 8d + 8d = 16d.

The energy of 4 4-ton rocks is 4d + 4d + 4d + 4d = 16d.

The size makes no difference. Your dividing the “collapse” of the North Tower into steps is a mistake. A mistake not of opinion but of physics.

There is no point in continuing this debate until we settle this issue.

reply to post by cuckooold


His name is Michael Riconosciuto (with 3 o's).
Your screen name reminds me b.t.w. of that wonderful film,
"One fly over the Cuckoo's Nest".

From my opening post :

I would like to ad on top of those above, my Thermobaric bombs WTC destruction theory, which I think I have advocated as the first ever regarding the three WTC Towers.. In 2005 already on this board, and on other boards long before that date. Because I based it on my 1995 OKC bombing research, where I found Riconosciuto's invention of TB's and the amazing story what happened to him after that. Don Fox includes a short text about the Barometric bombs theory in his above link.

This is first a former friend "Ray", and then Michael Riconosciuto (the inventor of the a-neutronic bomb, a.k.a. Barometric bomb) explaining the use of them in the OKC bombing on April 19, 1995, and how they work.

Listen very, very carefully to first "Ray's" words about the gaseous ring explosion around a steel column - shattering it, and then Michael's words, and how these weapons can be implemented in especially hi-rise buildings, f.ex. in the spaces between the lowered ceiling tiles and the concrete floors above them, which are easily flooded with the first stage gases used in TB's. So the gas can then shatter core columns....

Hear him also say that a TB can be directed within a 15° segmented space and can thus shatter steel :

Barometric Bombs: From Iran-contra To 9/11
www.youtube.com...

I redacted a few words, added a few more in my above quote.

Ray's words at 1:40 to 2:04 from a total video length of 9:55 :

"and this causes the cloud to explode in such fashion, that if the cloud is circulating a pillar then it crushes that pillar from all sides ( LT: when detonated), and turns that pillar literally to DUST, instantaneously, and when that happens of course, there's nothing left to hold up the stored floors up above and they will come down in...."

The TB bomb signature is also important, there is a delay in detonations between the first small one that disperses the gaseous cloud, and the second tiny one that ignites its electrostatic load and then the third huge one is the main gas explosion.

leostokes
reply to post by LaBTop

 

Probably the Kingdome's underground was also not the same as that in New York too. But the sudden thump of 8 huge blocks of concrete smashing in ground level is the huge difference in seismic appearance of that demolition.

You say the WTC reading is not too small. The Kingdome reading is too big.

No, I do NOT say it is too big. There you go again, seriously wrong.

The reason you give that the Kingdome reading is too high is because of 8 huge concrete blocks thumping the ground.

Again, the reading is not too high, it's perfectly right, according to the manner of destruction.

In principle you are saying that 2 8-ton blocks (16 tons) will produce a larger reading than than 4 4-ton blocks.

No. I talk about amplitude and duration. Do not lay YOUR words and seriously wrong thoughts in MY mouth !

I say that the size of the pieces makes no difference. The total weight hitting the ground is 16 tons in both cases.The Richter scale and the others is meant to indicate the energy of the shaking ground.

No. It's meant to indicate the amplitude and duration of the waves. Which combined can be calculated into the total energy exerted. Expressed in rising numbers on that EXPONENTIAL Richter scale. A 2.3 is seriously stronger than a 2.1 shake.


Energy is force times distance. E = Fd.

The energy of 2 8-ton rocks is 8d + 8d = 16d.

The energy of 4 4-ton rocks is 4d + 4d + 4d + 4d = 16d.

The size makes no difference. Your dividing the “collapse” of the North Tower into steps is a mistake. A mistake not of opinion but of physics.

There is no point in continuing this debate until we settle this issue.

Do us all a favor, go study a book on basic seismology.

Many posters reject the idea that the pile of rubble is too small. Lets set aside the big picture and look at a little picture. Look at this example where we focus our attention on the region of ground at the base of the west face of the North Tower.

We need first to orient ourselves.

In the picture below we are looking east. The (elevated) road at the bottom is West Street. The left tower is the NT. Just to its left is WTC 6. It is a good land mark because its west face survived in the rubble. To the left of WTC 6, across Vesey Street we see the Verizon building (VB). It is a good land mark because of its distinct architecture. It looks to be about one third the height of NT. Notice that these three buildings line up well along west street. (BTW the WTC 7 will latter be constructed to the right side of VB. This is an old picture.)

The map also helps with our orientation.

In the picture below we move our vantage point to the north. We are now looking south. See the top of VB in the bottom of the picture. We are looking at the north face of NT. The debris "falling" down the north face is going directly onto WTC 6. The west face is on the right. Its debris is going to region at the base of NT, the west side that we are about to examine.

In the picture below we go to the south an look north. In the background we clearly see VB. It looks large now that NT is gone. I have labeled the west face of WTC 6 to show how it lines up with VB. The region of interest is between the fireman near the center of the picture and WTC 6.

And here it is circled in red. The WTC 6 is an 8 story building. We can say that the pile of debris is smaller than expected. Because the fireman appears to be very close to ground level. And the debris does not even hide WTC 6.

This example is one reason people say the whole WTC rubble pile is too small. (BTW We can date this picture at around noon on 9/11/2001 because WTC 7 is still standing beside VB.)
Here is the "collapse" in motion.

4:40 into that video :
"Michael Riconosciuto: The detonation velocity of our bomb is in excess of 20,000 meters per SECOND, there's no known chemical explosive that has that much BRISANCE" (LT : shattering power).

Think for a moment about that, let it sink in, then you understand how huge steel columns could be sliced like butter. And that was in essence all that had to be done, after removal of the steel's resistance at every few floors, the whole tower would sink into itself, or so it would look for the non suspicious TV viewer.

Have a look at the calculations of that guy in that Mrs Wood-bashing huge 90 pages thread, in the thirties pages, where he shows how much concrete was in those vast areas of floor space on every one of those 110 floors, then you get a grip on the amount of concrete and dry-wall dust exerted on 9/11 per tower. Just as you saw blossoming up and sucked down again by the sudden displacement of that whole tower.

But it still was a triple DEMOLITION, evidenced especially in the WTC 7 seismogram, combined with the atomic clocked photos and videos of that event.

reply to post by leostokes


It comes down to this :

"Because the fireman appears to be very close to ground level. And the debris does not even hide WTC 6. "

Yup, WTC 6 was an 8 stories high building, that's about 24 meters high.
And the debris circle had a 300 meters diameter for each tower.
Go have a look at the posted videos and photos in your own linked-to Mrs Wood-bashing thread somewhere in its 30est pages, there you find all explanations and calculations.

As usual you will not do that, force me to re-examine all those pages again, post links and drawings, let me loose my precious time, and so all these debates go on, and on.

By the way, was I right on your toasted cars subject, or not ?

Learn to openly admit your mistakes, I do that all the time. I have no problem at all with that.

reply to post by LaBTop

Probably the Kingdome's underground was also not the same as that in New York too. But the sudden thump of 8 huge blocks of concrete smashing in ground level is the huge difference in seismic appearance of that demolition.

You say the WTC reading is not too small. The Kingdome reading is too big.

No, I do NOT say it is too big. There you go again, seriously wrong.

Well if that is not what you are saying then what do you mean by this?
... the sudden thump of 8 huge blocks ... is the huge difference ... seismic appearance ...

The Richter scale and the others is meant to indicate the energy of the shaking ground.

No. It's meant to indicate the amplitude and duration of the waves. Which combined can be calculated into the total energy exerted.

We are at a turning point in this debate. I need you to use fewer words. I need you to answer this "yes or no":

Is the Richter scale meant to indicate the energy of the earthquake.

The quote below is

"From Wikipedia the free encyclopedia The Richter magnitude scale (often shortened to Richter scale) was developed to assign a single number to quantify the energy released during an earthquake."

reply to post by LaBTop


I showed evidence of cars toasted where they sit. If you say they were moved there after toasting you are wrong.

reply to post by LaBTop

As usual you will not do that, force me to re-examine all those pages

Sir I have not forced you to do anything.

reply to post by LaBTop

No. It's meant to indicate the amplitude and duration of the waves. Which combined can be calculated into the total energy exerted. Expressed in rising numbers on that EXPONENTIAL Richter scale.

The Richter scale is LOGARITHMIC.

reply to post by LaBTop

"Because the fireman appears to be very close to ground level. And the debris does not even hide WTC 6. "

Yup, WTC 6 was an 8 stories high building, that's about 24 meters high.
And the debris circle had a 300 meters diameter for each tower.

Are you saying that the debris fell somewhere else?



I think I know where it went.

reply to post by leostokes


"The Richter scale is LOGARITHMIC."

Rewriting a logarithm in exponential form can make problem-solving easier.

Exponential Functions and Logarithmic Functions are Inverses of eachother.

NOTE: The two functions f(x)=10x and f(x)=log x are on the same button on your calculator because they are inverses of each other (like ex and ln x also.)

If we plot them on the same axes, we see that they are just reflections of each other in the line y = x.

In this graph, f(x)=10x is in green and f(x)=log x is in blue, and we can see that they are reflections of each other in y = x (plotted in red).

graph of y=10x and y=log x on same axes :

leostokes
reply to post by LaBTop

 

I showed evidence of cars toasted where they sit. If you say they were moved there after toasting you are wrong.

Are you serious? Do you still not understand that I proved to you that the bulk of those cars were towed, hauled, driven, whatever, to that spot, IN-BETWEEN the plane hits and the collapses? There were already damaged and burned or still burning/smoldering cars between them, moved to there.

Your sunny, "parked" cars photo which you and Mrs Wood so triumphantly showed as being the NORMAL parking lot appearance, is not such.

Look at the amount of time between the second plane hit and the first, South tower collapse......That´s when your "parked" cars photo was shot.
Those cars were `smashed` together, bumper to bumper. In a hurry. Some of them still burning and smoldering inside. The exterior was extinguished hastily, not all the interiors.

Then the South tower collapse spread its (partially) burning debris in a circle with a diameter of 300 meters around it. And a lot of still burning LIGHT and flammable material (paper, carton, plastic, cloth etc) ended up much further, carried by wind and collapse gusts.
And ignited the gasoline leaked on the ground from still leaking, ruptured gas tanks that still were not repaired of course, or it ignited highly flammable plastic interiors and car seats. Many of those cars were hauled there hurriedly because they were hit by plane-impact and building debris in the first place.
And stood in the way of huge rescue operations going on.

reply to post by leostokes


I'll repeat it one more time :

The Richter scale and the others is meant to indicate the energy of the shaking ground.

No. It's meant to indicate the amplitude and duration of the waves. Which combined can be calculated into the total energy exerted.

More on it here (use Babelfish or Google translate) :
www.knmi.nl...
and here :
nl.wikipedia.org...

and for those who can't take the time to translate the different info in those two pages to English, here's the English Wikipedia page :
en.wikipedia.org...

I was lucky because logarithmic plots are a device of the devil. —Charles Francis Richter, Charles Richter Interview

"Because the fireman appears to be very close to ground level. And the debris does not even hide WTC 6. "

Yup, WTC 6 was an 8 stories high building, that's about 24 meters high.
And the debris circle had a 300 meters diameter for each tower.

Are you saying that the debris fell somewhere else?

I would study that word "appears" a bit deeper, there are videos and photo's in Mrs Wood's video, where you can see how high the debris pile in fact was, but you have to be very quick to halt that video, since it is shown only in a blink of your eye.
Of course there are much more YT videos that take their time to film that pile from real street levels in the adjacent streets. Your screen-shot or whatever, was shot atop that pile.
If I remember right, f.ex. that G.W. Bush propaganda piece shows him atop that rubble mountain, "adopting" that skinny firefighter with his "adoration".

Your last question, I just explained you where all debris fell, in a radius of 150 meters around those towers spreading out from heavy debris closer to the footprints, to lighter debris further away, so, that's quite an indicative question by you.
Mrs Wood followers have all the indications of a Jehovah Witness believer. Against all odds, they keep believing. Until they bring themselves to read more than one book.

I'm flipping backwards from page 49, and found the last rebuttal from poster "gamelon" in that Mrs Wood bashing thread of 90 pages :
www.davidicke.com...

Pay attention to that big overhead photo of just the western part of the total debris field.
Now go and find that G.W. video, I think it was shot from that spot to the top-right of that red colored frame over that photo. That pile was huge...and that was the periphery of the debris circle...

Am going more backwards to give you the calculations he provided on debris masses.

reply to post by LaBTop

Yes exponential and logarithmic functions are inverses. Is the Richter scale logarithmic or not?
Every time I say something seems like you object.

reply to post by LaBTop

Are you serious? Do you still not understand that I proved to you that the bulk of those cars were towed, hauled, driven, whatever, to that spot, IN-BETWEEN the plane hits and the collapses? There were already damaged and burned or still burning/smoldering cars between them, moved to there.

You showed me nothing, Sir. I am waiting for you to show me circled tow trucks.

reply to post by LaBTop

and here :
nl.wikipedia.org...

I have already quoted this page to you, sir. The first sentence says Richter = energy. Now you quote it to me saying it says something else?