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Originally posted by senrak
Bro. Gerard, Bro. "Mirth" and some others have spoken well.
I grow weary of this silly thread. It started out with a legitimate question which would be interesting to discuss...and quickly degenerated. [sigh]
I guess I'll put on my fez and my Knight Masons apron, my KCCH jewel and go attend my Eastern Star meeting now...(they're all the same you know)
[edit on 24-10-2004 by senrak]
We already know that masons use symbols to represent pagan dieties. What is your point?
Yet again, another load of tripe posted by a puffed up Bible-basher. The ironic thing is that most of these so-called Christians walk all over their religion when making such criticisms. You just have to laugh at the way in which they always pick the Biblical quotations that condemn people who they think don't agree with their own point of view. You never see the quotations like "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself". The Christian message of Love, Forgiveness and not Judging goes right out the window in the rush to condemn others. And let's not even contend the fact that your whole argument is flawed anyway, shall we?
Yet again, another load of tripe posted by a puffed up Bible-basher.
The ironic thing is that most of these so-called Christians walk all over their religion when making such criticisms.
The Christian message of Love, Forgiveness and not Judging goes right out the window in the rush to condemn others.
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
Just because Freemasonry requires a belief in a Supreme Being, it is a religion? Where do you get that twisted logic from? If my parents instilled a belief in God in me from birth, it doesn't mean that they are the religion.
Freemasonry is pagan? No more than Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Paganism is the root of the religions. If you're classifying Freemasonry as a religion then it would be no different and therefore no more or less open to condemnation.
Lucifer is Satan? Read the Bible - you'll find that you are wrong yet again. He was a Babylonian prince. The only reason that Freemasonry gets wrongly tied in with Lucifer is because of a spelling error in the Bible.
And there is yet another massive flaw in your argument. Freemasons do not serve "two masters".
If I'm a Christian Freemason, I worship a Christian god. I don't follow the Islamic god and I'm not forced to acknowledge him. All that is asked of me is that I respect the other man's right to believe what he wants. Of course, fundamentalist Christians don't want that. They want to shove their religion down your throat and force you to accept their doctrine - however flawed it may be. By quoting those scary Bible passages they believe that they can justify their creed through threats and fear.
That's about as far away from being Christian as dog is to solid gold. Take a look in the mirror. When you use fear as a weapon to force others to follow your religion, which master are you yourself really following?
Notice that it is only the fundamentalist Christians complaining on these boards
As if they are the only religion in existence. Apologies, Christians, for your God stands side-by-side, wth Siddhartha Gautama - the enlightened Buddha, with the Shinto deities, with the Taost Ascended Masters, with the Hindu Gods (from Shiva to Kali, to Vishnu to all the others), also beside Allah - blessed be His name, and so on . . . .
And no, not all of these religions recognize Jesus or the Christian God as particularly important - nor is Jesus the "gateway' to salvation for all of these religions. In fact, Hindus wonder how a so called "divine" being can sink to the level of man, and how ignoble it is for a so called "divine" son of a God to be killed by man. The drama is there, of course, but many Hindus do not view such a being as worthy of worship.
I am glad that Christian fundamentalists believe in the strength and wisdom of their religion - an excellent thing, and a bastion of strength and comfort in these trying times.. But do not believe to the exclusion and ignorance of others, and do not speak of your faith as if it is the "true" faith that plunges all others into oblivion.
Hate, from folks that claim the mantle of Christian, is a strange and bizarre thing to witness, and frankly, the more hate and spite, frauds, lies and vituperation I witness from so called Christians, the more sure I am in my choice of being a mason... and the more sure I am that on judgment day, when there "Christians" stand before g-d to answer for their lies told in HIS NAME, the more sure I am that my choice of association with the good and honourable men of this fraternity is right.
Yup. Still doesn’t change the fact there is only one truth.
Originally posted by shmick25
There's no substance to your reply. Although it reads well, it's either off subject or doesn't answer the points bought up.
If the biblical passage that I quoted hit a nerve, I am really not that sorry. The purpose of scripture is to lead you to the truth and sometimes it hurts. This passage is not an attack personally but a commentary.
The passage is a political commentary taken and used out of context.
I have never claimed in any posts that I am perfect, and I have never claimed that all masons will be judged guilty, however the Bible is quite clear when Jesus said 'I am the way the truth and the life, for no one comes to the father except through me?
The Bible is not clear on this subject. There is an argument as to wether Jesus merely meant "believe in me" or if he meant "be like me". We've discussed this in full elsewhere on ATS.
Can you be any more generalistic in your generalisation?
Wordplay. It was pretty obvious what I meant.
I do not hate anybody, and believe me, your comments are water off a ducks back. So I forgive you already
I didn't accuse you of hating me. Thanks for the forgiveness though.
My intention was not to personally attack you. I'm sorry my reply to the question had that impact on you.
I wasn't replying to a question. I was replying to a statement that was made in ignorance.
If you looked up the definition of religion in the dictionary it says: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."
Tell me how freemasonry contradicts this?
You mislead with the definition. It has nothing to do with Freemasonry. Freemasons believe in their own gods. Freemasonry doesn't force them to worship nor does it force them to change. Freemasons have a choice. Religion is a set down doctrine applied to worship. Freemasonry is not. Could it get any clearer?
You may want to add 'in my opinion' as you certainly can not back that up with any solid, credible evidence.
I certainly can and I certainly have. I've spent quite some time writing about the pagan origins of religion here on ATS. Go use the Search function. Paganism played a massive part in the creation of the big 3. Denial is useless. I don't add "in my opinion" as the statement is also the opinion of anyone who knows anything about historical theology.
Now the authenticity of the Bible is flawed (including spelling errors). Why do you let people into your organisation who believe in such an obviously flawed religion? I would be interested in reading some more literature on this. Can you send me some links?
Freemasonry is not a religion. Why should somebody therefore be dictated to over their personal beliefs?
I don?t preach a fear doctrine. Never once did I say you would burn in Hell and yada yada yada. The rest of what you say is just a personal rant.
Firstly I don't reckon that there was anything that you quoted that was a personal rant - merely a reply pointing out your innaccuracy. Secondly, the Bible passage that you used to back up your argument expresses damnation on those who don't follow your path. Although you may not have explicitly stated that people would burn in hell, the inference was certainly there and plain for all to see.
I took a look in the mirror this morning actually. I do not force anyone to do what they do not want to do. I am a strong believer in free choice. I can tell people what I believe but I would hardly call that 'FORCE'.
So you wouldn't call posting Bible passages stating that everyone who doesn't follow your doctrine is evil as trying to force others to comply? Especially when being evil is equated with going to hell? Why post them then?
What other Christian should I be??? One that doesn?t accept what the bible teaches? One with no absolute truths? One that fits more inline with what you believe? I would hardly call what I said 'complaining'. But I can understand why you would be defensive, as obviously what I said questioned something that you believe in a lot.
Gotta love this one. You've already stated that you know that the Bible is flawed and now in your argument you are reverting and running to that "flawed" book. Nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't believe in the Bible though. What they are suggesting is that you don't ram it down others throats - especially as it is flawed as you so admit.
Now don't get me wrong. You seem to have a delicate constitution (oops judgement).... this is not a flame. I'm merely pointing out that your words can be analysed and understood to warrant such a reply.
What it is, is a reply to innaccurate accusations that are backed up with dubious Biblical texts that express horror at others having a different opinion to yourself.
Originally posted by senrak
Originally posted by Becon of Light
uhh.. i was never asked to join.. but this one fella that i met once (i noticed the shriner symbol on his shirt) looked me straight in the eye after about 5 minutes of casual conversation about the order and tried to pull a "Jedi" on me.. looked me right in the eye and said "Join us".. does that count? (on a side note.. my employer [i was at work at the time] about dropped one in his trousers, he was standing just a few feet away and totally agreed that this fellow tried to jedi me)
let me say that i was honored that he would do this. i know it is a taboo to ask someone to join the order.. and in a sense i wasnt asked, but told, but with regard to "soliciting" someone to join.. it is really the same thing
Originally posted by defcon5
Becon apparently it is a rule of the masons that they are not supposed to ask anyone to join, however this is not a perfect world and some obviously do. It was done to me personally multiple times
[edit on 10/17/2005 by defcon5]
The real light can only be found within and only by dissolving the outward streaming forth of the mind, energy and ambition. The inner light is not separate from the light without, but must be experienced first of all within, before the chameleon-like mind projects itself out into the sphere of the rolling mirror.
Originally posted by Tamahu:
What you, and whoever you quoted are discussing, seems to be best explained by the Dzogchen of Tibet and Zhang Zhung(and also the modern Gnostic movement).
Aspire to be like Mt. Fuji, with such a broad and solid foundation that the strongest earthquake cannot move you, and so tall that the greatest enterprises of common men seem insignificant from your lofty perspective. With your mind as high as Mt Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things happening near to you.
In the first state, man and sword become one and each other. Here, even a blade of grass can be used as a lethal weapon. In the next stage, the sword resides not in the hand but in the heart. Even without a weapon, the warrior can slay his enemy from a hundred paces. But the ultimate ideal is when the sword disappears altogether. The warrior embraces all around him. The desire to kill no longer exists. Only peace remains.
Originally posted by Tamahu:
This thread contains the best works on the subject, if you're interested.
Originally posted by Tamahu:By the way, is that a symbol of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor in your avatar?
H.P.B. TheSecret Doctrine:
The Zohar speaks of "Black Fire," which is Absolute Light-Wisdom. To those who, prompted by old theological prejudice, may say: "But the Asuras are the rebel Devas, the opponents of the Gods -- hence devils, and the spirits of Evil," it is answered: Esoteric philosophy admits neither good nor evil per se, as existing independently in nature. The cause for both is found, as regards the Kosmos, in the necessity of contraries or contrasts, and with respect to man, in his human nature, his ignorance and passions. There is no devil or the utterly depraved, as there are no Angels absolutely perfect, though there may be spirits of Light and of Darkness; thus LUCIFER -- the spirit of Intellectual Enlightenment and Freedom of Thought -- is metaphorically the guiding beacon, which helps man to find his way through the rocks and sandbanks of Life, for Lucifer is the LOGOS in his highest, and the "Adversary" in his lowest aspect -- both of which are reflected in our Ego. Lactantius, speaking of the Nature of Christ, makes the LOGOS, the Word, the first-born brother of Satan, the "first of all creatures." (Inst. div. Book II., c. viii., "Qabbalah," 116.)