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[edit on 23-10-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Lucifer was the greatest of all angels, 2nd only to God, he became proud of his power and prestige, and felt that he could be greater than God, and place his throne above that of the most high.

St. Micheal and the heavenly battalions, cast out Lucifer from heaven, and he lost his angelic seat, and became "satan" or "adversary". 1/3 of the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer.

Geez, I haven't heard that story since Relgion classes when I went to Catholic grammar school.
Probably 2nd or 3rd grade.
I remember there were even pictures of that scene for us to color

Originally posted by JaseP
Then those Masons were acting improperly, because I know of no Masonic bodies in North America that sanction recruiting in that fashion.

You guys are really hung up this recruiting thing. I fail to see where it invalidates anything that I have said about the point of the thread.

It was not as if guys in black trench coats came up to me on a dark street and tried to recruit me, it was friends and people I knew. You are going to tell me that NEVER in your life have you suggested to someone that you know that they should join the masons and come hang out at the lodge with you, I find that so highly unlikely as to be very questionable.

I doubt you would admit it anyway; this thread seems to be about spinning the facts so the masons win at any coast anyway. Just take a look at the defenses you guys are using, picking on grammar and spelling mistakes, nit picking on minor details, ignoring any real questions or statements, saying your right just because that is what your taught as a mason.

Originally posted by JaseP
Masons do not worship false gods, there is no "bait-n-switch" within the Fraternity. If your reason for not joining was a theological one,... such as the Masons would require you not to witness to the other Brothers during lodge, or engage in a discussion of thorlogy, then that's one thing. But your reasons seem to be largely based on false assumptions about the Fraternity from spurious and slanderous/libelous sources (i.e. Jack Chick's cartoons, which are patently lies about the Fraternity).

I never stated there was a bait and switch. To join as a mason, you have to profess the belief in a Supreme Being, or God, but any will do, so why not Lucifer. Can you tell me for a fact that there are no Luciferians in the Masonic order, it seems like it would be against your own rules to deny them membership based on who they chose as their god.

You also seem stuck on these cartoons, but they are not the reason for my believing the way I do. I do not even know if they existed back when I made that decision, and I certainly never saw them back then. I would guess that the first time I saw these cartoons was in the last year or so.

Originally posted by JaseP
Please do. It may very well be a clandestine masonic body, a so-called Cernau Lodge or some other non-recognized Masonic body. OR, it may be a Shrine center or the locus of some charitable endeavor tied to the Masons... Take your picture, we'll happily tell you what the building is...

Actually after reading senrak’s post, he is correct, it is the Shriners World Headquarters. I can still take a picture of it if you guys wish, but if you don’t need one it will save me the money on buying a digital camera in the morning (I was planning on picking up a cheap one on the way home to take a picture for you).

Still I do not see how this makes it any less valid, Shriners are still a branch of Freemasonry, and you need to be a mason to be a Shriner. I still find it heard to believe that there is no corporate hierarchy that controls the cash flow through the Masonic order, unless you guys filter all the money through the Shriners and call it a separate organization just to say there is no Masonic main body.

Originally posted by senrak
Yep. A SYMBOL. SYMBOL. Not worshipped and not symbolizing Satanism. It CAN symbolize Satanism, but it doesn't in this case. Life is FULL of symbols. One has to see beyond the symbol itself to the thing that is symbolized and remember that a symbol can symbolize different things to different people. The Cross is a good example. It can symbolize Christianity. It can symbolize first aid (the Red Cross for example...or an ambulance)

You are still not grasping there is a difference between Luciferianism and Satanism. Even though I am a Christian I also believe there is something to be said for the religions that deny all symbols. If you look at the commandments as given to Moses, it really reads as though, “you shall have no gods before me”, and, “thou shall have no graven images”, are separate commandments. There is some dispute on this in religion, especially since the Catholic Church was big on images, it is argued by some that they combined the first two commands and split the last one in two. Therefore it follows that God must see some power to images as well.

Originally posted by senrak
BLAZING I say. On fire.

Blazing, on fire, Illuminated, Light bearer, torch bearer, illumination, these all refer to basically something being enlightened, Luminous, Luciferian…

Originally posted by senrak
I'm pointing out grammar errors because they drive me crazy.

Sorry about that, I do have a spell checker that I type this into first. Occasionally it anticipates what I type and seems to switch things around a bit, like then and than. Occasionally it is a typing error from typing too fast, it seems like the checker pickes its best guess and inserts it. Since it inserts a valid word, it does not show up with a highlight. When I am at work, like right now, I do not have time to read and re-read these posts to check every grammatical or spelling error. Believe me I did pass college English, sorry for getting on your nerves. There is also a grammar checker on here, but it does not seem to catch much.

Originally posted by senrak
Forgive my ignorance. What are the "psudopigraphial" books? That word isn't in the Oxford English Dictionary...nor anything close to it. Do you mean perhaps the Deuterocanonical books?

Pseudopigraphical books where books that where considered for the Bible, but for various reasons where omitted. Pieces of many of them found their way into the Bible, for instance there is a direct quote in the book of Jude from the Pseudopigraphical book of Enoch. Enoch is also a Masonic character besides Tubal-Cain, and I believe that there is an entire degree that is dedicated to it in one rite of masonry, the ceremonies that go with this rite come from the book of Enoch. The two Pseudopigraphical books that would relate the most in my opinion to this subject would be the books of Eden and the book of Enoch, since they further explain some of the characters that you admit are part of Masonic rites.

Originally posted by senrak
He plays an important part in Masonic ceremony. What difference would it make how much stage-time he got in the Bible? Masonry isn't religion. It does draw some (SOME) of it's ceremonies from Biblical stories and characters, but not all.

I am going to come back to this in a few, there is some significant stuff to this and it is going to require a separate post.

Originally posted by senrak
I forgot I'm supposed to believe Time Life Books

Do they have a history of printing false material? If they did, I would think the Masonic Lodge would have risen against them with the printing of this book and filed a libel charge, or made them print a retraction. Oh, but it must be because there is no over all governing body for the masons to perform such an act.

Originally posted by senrak
Who's world headquarters? There IS NO World Headquarters for Masonry. I've said that. The Grand Lodge of Missouri is the "headquarters" for the Lodge I belong to. It's in Columbia Missouri (about 3 hours from here) The Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite that I belong to is in Washington DC. The Shrine Headquarters is in Tampa. Shriners draw their membership from Masons, but the Shrine isn't Masonry. Their purpose is to support the Shrine Children't Hospitals which provide free medical help to crippled and burned children (sounds EVIL, huh?) The Shrine is also a "fun" organization. Overgrown children in some ways (I can say that. I'm also a Shriner)

You are correct that this is the Shriners World Headquarters in Tampa, as I admitted above. IT still changes little; there is obviously a corporate structure to the Masons/Shriners, if for no other reason to control the money. It is a mute point to me that you are going to say they are two different organizations, they are so interlinked with each other they might as well be one organization anyway.

No, helping kids is not evil; in fact, I work in the medical field myself. However, doing good works does not change anything about what I have said. I have already stated that Lucifer can disguise himself as an angle of light, meaning he can do works to make himself look good as well. It changes nothing of the dogma behind the organization, it is off topic, and is an excuse used all the time by masons when they are accused of being a Non-Christian organization.

it was asked where does it talk about Lucifer, and the battle between the devil and his angels, and St. Micheal and his angels...

well, there are two places in the KJV of the bible that are a basis for this

from Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Revelations 12

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The second quote mentions the great battle between St. Micheal, and the devil. The first quote mentions Lucifer desiring to ascend above God.

CC



[edit on 23-10-2004 by chief_counsellor]

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
it was asked where does it talk about Lucifer, and the battle between the devil and his angels, and St. Micheal and his angels...

well, there are two places in the KJV of the bible that are a basis for this

from Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Problem is, Isaiah was referring to Nebuchadnezzar, not the devil.

Revelations 12

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

and in Revelations, the author is speaking of events TO COME, not in the past.

The second quote mentions the great battle between St. Micheal, and the devil. The first quote mentions Lucifer desiring to ascend above God.

And the Lucifer quote is a bad translation, and is NOT in the original as the light bearer or lucifer, and was a reference to the overweaning pride and arrogance of that king, not that of the devil.

Revelations is in a cryptic symbolic language, and is not just events to come, things that are happening now, and have happened, and are going to occur. If you read some of the books on the interpretation of revelations, you will come to understand it better.

The bible is timeless, in that it's message is applicable to all ages. God doesn't live in a past, present, future like we do. God is omnipotent, omnipresnt, and exists before all time and eternity. We have a timeline, a life and death, God is eternal, and isn't limited to the boundary's of time and space like we are.

The bible also, is a glimpse into God's word, and doesn't necessarily need to be interpreted in a chronological order as we understand the measure of time to be.

Revelations is occuring now, and has been since the beginning. It is a compendium of the state of God's relationship with his people, and the triumph over evil. What is, was, and is to come, all at once. For God, there is no limit like time.

In the bible as well, there is much allegory, metaphors, symbolism, names of people, places, represent more than just the name of a person, or city.

True, which is why the bible has been used by so many evil men to justify their own evil...

Torquemada, Pius IX, Hitler, Slave Traders etc etc.

There is much good, but also much that is subject to interpretation... for instance, the discussion in Isaiah regarding Lucifer... being as it was, a reference to a moral king and not a demon...

and also why there are thousands of christain sects, from the RCC, GOC, ROC to the Mormons, Jim Jones, Baptists (in all their flavors) and evangelicals that reject all of the other churches...

Where does the idea that Freemasons worship Lucifer come from??
Ummm let me think... could it be through your philosophy?

Lets just break down a couple of obvious ideals of your organisation that have simply been presented on this thread (starting in no order of importance)

The contradiction

Masons worship g-d as each of them know Him/her. Some, Catholics/Protestants know Him as the trinity or as Jesus. Some, know Him as the great mover. Some as Jehovah, some as Shiva, others, other ways. Masonry has not specific godhead. It is NOT a religion. Masonry is a fraternity of religious men.

If masonry is not a religion, why is there an insistence of worship to a 'great Architect ' - g-d (whatever you insist on calling him). A secular fraternity would not be concerned with anything of a spiritual nature yet being a mason demands acknowledgement of this 'supreme being'. So to join, one must be religious and then have a common belief in the same deity.. hmm sounds like a religion to me..

Masons worship g-d as each of them know Him/her.

The problem with this is that there is only 1 (ONE) God. Even the masons believe this (their great architect). The problem is, this ‘great architect’ is not Jehovah, the alpha and omega, the true and living God. Instead it is a deity that is a culmination of whatever man wishes to conjure as theron dunn so nicely pointed out. The Bible clearly indicates that God demands worship.

So the belief that you can worship whoever or whatever you want, just as long as you worship something is pagan in heritage and one just needs to read the accounts in Exodus (the jews in Egypt) to get an understanding of what God thinks of this practice. So if people assign pagan attributes to this great-architect, what is the significance of this deity but a culmination of human arrogance??

So for those not gifted enough to draw the conclusion I will spell it out for you. The Bible clearly indicated that you can not serve two masters. ‘Chose you now who you server, as for me I will serve the Lord’ If you are not serving Christ, then it must be the devil, as to worship anything apart from Christ is to worship satan. (In the context of this thread, Lucifer equates to satan). The argument that ‘as Christians join the sect it must be ok’ shows a complete lack of understanding of Biblical doctrine. By this argument you can condone anything as ok seeing a so called Christian has done it.. from pedophilia through to murder.

I’m not here to shoot down masons but to answer the question.

Ephesians 6:12 states so much better than my inadequate words could ever:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So the belief that you can worship whoever or whatever you want, just as long as you worship something is pagan in heritage

so is christianity. but that to has been discussed at great length here.

the 5pointed star, at least as far back as i have found was and is the sign of Venus,who was also associated with Sophia who is associated with knowledge
or gnosis. there are some who associate the "G" in the masonic emblem with
Gnosis as well as Geometry. of my own knowledge i dont know if it is correct or not.

I have seen the pentagram mentioned with a figure in the middle. actually i have seen 3 different ones. one in which DaVincis vetruvian man was overlaid,
one in which the figure is female symbolizing the Goddess(my wife has one of these), and one in which the figure is half male and half female symbolizing
the androgynous balanced male and female nature of "The one who watches over us all.
it might also be worth noting that the Pentagram has also been used to symbolize the 5 petal rose and vice versa, the rose being used also to symbolize The Virgin and Mary Magdalene and several other things.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

So the belief that you can worship whoever or whatever you want, just as long as you worship something is pagan in heritage

so is christianity. but that to has been discussed at great length here.

Correct, some forms of christianity have accepted pagan influences.

the 5pointed star, at least as far back as i have found was and is the sign of Venus,who was also associated with Sophia who is associated with knowledge
or gnosis. there are some who associate the "G" in the masonic emblem with
Gnosis as well as Geometry. of my own knowledge i dont know if it is correct or not.

I have seen the pentagram mentioned with a figure in the middle. actually i have seen 3 different ones. one in which DaVincis vetruvian man was overlaid,
one in which the figure is female symbolizing the Goddess(my wife has one of these), and one in which the figure is half male and half female symbolizing
the androgynous balanced male and female nature of "The one who watches over us all.
it might also be worth noting that the Pentagram has also been used to symbolize the 5 petal rose and vice versa, the rose being used also to symbolize The Virgin and Mary Magdalene and several other things.

We already know that masons use symbols to represent pagan dieties. What is your point?

Originally posted by defcon5
[much nonsense snipped]

Still I do not see how this makes it any less valid, Shriners are still a branch of Freemasonry, and you need to be a mason to be a Shriner. I still find it heard to believe that there is no corporate hierarchy that controls the cash flow through the Masonic order, unless you guys filter all the money through the Shriners and call it a separate organization just to say there is no Masonic main body.

There is a corporate hierarchy...just not a world headquarters. The corporate hierarchy in my jurisdiction is the Grand Lodge of Missouri in Columbia Missouri. I pay dues to my local Lodge each year and a very small portion of my dues goes to the Grand Lodge of Missouri. Not to some world-headquarters, and certainly not to the Imperial Council of the Shrine in Florida. When I pay my Shriners dues, a part goes to my Shrine in St Louis and a part goes to the Imperial Shrine in Florida, but again, the whole point is there is no world-HQ for Masonry. Each State is an autonomous body.

You are still not grasping there is a difference between Luciferianism and Satanism. Even though I am a Christian I also believe there is something to be said for the religions that deny all symbols. If you look at the commandments as given to Moses, it really reads as though, “you shall have no gods before me”, and, “thou shall have no graven images”, are separate commandments. There is some dispute on this in religion, especially since the Catholic Church was big on images, it is argued by some that they combined the first two commands and split the last one in two. Therefore it follows that God must see some power to images as well.

I guess Christians should destroy all Crosses, huh? I mean...since it's a "symbol" of Christianity and all. Funny thing, though...there's a big Lutheran Church one block from my little Episcopalian one that has a HUGE Celtic Cross on it's steeple. I think I'll stop by on my way to Mass this morning and suggest that they destroy that evil symbol up there...

[
Blazing, on fire, Illuminated, Light bearer, torch bearer, illumination, these all refer to basically something being enlightened, Luminous, Luciferian…

Enlighten: To supply with intellectual light; to impart knowledge or wisdom to; to instruct.
(Again from the Oxford English Dictionary)

So you see, enlightened is a GOOD thing...not "Luciferian" (oh how I chuckle at that word)

Pseudopigraphical books where books that where considered for the Bible, but for various reasons where omitted.

I truly wish I knew what word you were trying to use. Thereis no such word as pseudopigraphical. The books you refer to are the Deuterocanonical books also called the Apocrypha, but I've yet to find pseudopigraphical in ANY dictionary or Biblical index.

Do they have a history of printing false material? If they did, I would think the Masonic Lodge would have risen against them with the printing of this book and filed a libel charge, or made them print a retraction. Oh, but it must be because there is no over all governing body for the masons to perform such an act.

MANY book publishers has a history of printing false material. I'm not saying that EVERYTHING TIME LIFE PUBLISHES IS FALSE...but their "take" on Freemasonry comes from jaded sources...much like your own. Masons have a history of NOT "rising against them" and filing libel charges, etc. We are generally silent when ignorance of our Order causes such things to be printed or said. Generally.

You are correct that this is the Shriners World Headquarters in Tampa, as I admitted above. IT still changes little; there is obviously a corporate structure to the Masons/Shriners, if for no other reason to control the money. It is a mute point to me that you are going to say they are two different organizations, they are so interlinked with each other they might as well be one organization anyway.

Don't tell that to Shriners. A couple of years ago they dropped the requirement that a member be a York or Scottish Rite Mason and now must only be a Master Mason (3rd Degree) In the next few years they'll likely drop the requirement that a Shriner be a Mason at all. So, no. They might as well NOT be one organizaiton anyway. There are a LOT of Masons (some of the Grand Officers) who'd rather see the Shrine separate itself from Masonry completely. The point is (sigh) you called it a world headquarters for Masonry. It isn't. Period.





[edit on 24-10-2004 by senrak]

It would appear that this thread has been invaded by Trolls.The last poster has put up a link that contains ideas that Freemasonry is so wicked that it makes people ill and they are victims of that perfidy. It also goes on to have a link to the issue of reptiles in politics and that the North pole is hollow. The only thing that is hollow is that website. As Freemasons we have to put up with this nonsense and lies on a regular basis.We are the victims of people who tell wicked lies about us and take pleasure in doing so. Where do these people come from as it would appear that some of them are very eccentric?

Brother Gerard

It would appear that this thread has been invaded by Trolls.The last poster has put up a link that contains ideas that Freemasonry is so wicked that it makes people ill and they are victims of that perfidy. It also goes on to have a link to the issue of reptiles in politics and that the North pole is hollow. The only thing that is hollow is that website. As Freemasons we have to put up with this nonsense and lies on a regular basis.We are the victims of people who tell wicked lies about us and take pleasure in doing so. Where do these people come from as it would appear that some of them are very eccentric?

Brother Gerard

Originally posted by shmick25
Ephesians 6:12 states so much better than my inadequate words could ever:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Yet again, another load of tripe posted by a puffed up Bible-basher. The ironic thing is that most of these so-called Christians walk all over their religion when making such critisisms. You just have to laugh at the way in which they always pick the Biblical quotations that condemn people who they think don't agree with their own point of view. You never see the quotations like "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself". The Christian message of Love, Forgiveness and not Judging goes right out the window in the rush to condemn others. And let's not even contend the fact that your whole argument is flawed anyway, shall we?

Just because Freemasonry requires a belief in a Supreme Being, it is a religion? Where do you get that twisted logic from? If my parents instilled a belief in God in me from birth, it doesn't mean that they are the religion.
Freemasonry is pagan? No more than Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Paganism is the root of the religions. If you're classifying Freemasonry as a religion then it would be no different and therefore no more or less open to condemnation.
Lucifer is Satan? Read the Bible - you'll find that you are wrong yet again. He was a Babylonian prince. The only reason that Freemasonry gets wrongly tied in with Lucifer is because of a spelling error in the Bible.

And there is yet another massive flaw in your argument. Freemasons do not serve "two masters". If I'm a Christian Freemason, I worship a Christian god. I don't follow the Islamic god and I'm not forced to acknowledge him. All that is asked of me is that I respect the other man's right to believe what he wants. Of course, fundamentalist Christians don't want that. They want to shove their religion down your throat and force you to accept their doctrine - however flawed it may be. By quoting those scary Bible passages they believe that they can justify their creed through threats and fear.

That's about as far away from being Christian as dog # is to solid gold. Take a look in the mirror. When you use fear as a weapon to force others to follow your religion, which master are you yourself really following?

Here's some irony for you:
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
Matthew7:3

Notice that it is only the fundamentalist Christians complaining on these boards . . . loudly, beating their chests.

As if they are the only religion in existence. Apologies, Christians, for your God stands side-by-side, wth Siddhartha Gautama - the enlightened Buddha, with the Shinto deities, with the Taost Ascended Masters, with the Hindu Gods (from Shiva to Kali, to Vishnu to all the others), also beside Allah - blessed be His name, and so on . . . .

And no, not all of these religions recognize Jesus or the Christian God as particularly important - nor is Jesus the "gateway' to salvation for all of these religions. In fact, Hindus wonder how a so called "divine" being can sink to the level of man, and how ignoble it is for a so called "divine" son of a God to be killed by man. The drama is there, of course, but many Hindus do not view such a being as worthy of worship.

I am glad that Christian fundamentalists believe in the strength and wisdom of their religion - an excellent thing, and a bastion of strength and comfort in these trying times.. But do not believe to the exclusion and ignorance of others, and do not speak of your faith as if it is the "true" faith that plunges all others into oblivion.