There is so much incorrect information in your posts that it is hard to know where to even start.

1) There is NO symbolic rebirth in any degree. Period. Claims to the contrary simply display ignorance

2) DeMolay can recruit, and does. DeMolay is for boys, and is NOT masonry. Your post was misleading, (deliberately?) in that it inferred you were "recruited" to masonry. Being asked if you have thought of joining, or being told about the fraternity is not recruiting. However, it may be true that at some point in your adult life you were asked to join freemasonry, in contravention to tradition. So what?

3) The Blazing Star is g-d... your efforts to relate it to satan are weak, and intellectually dishonest. MASONS know what it represents, how can you honestly say YOU understand what WE do not?

4) Upside down, rightside up... who decides? Some religious bigot with a hat full of ignorance? You cannot change what the membership says and does by making a claim to the contrary. In Eastern Star, the point of the star is pointing down to the child in Bethlehem.

5) By its fruits shall the tree be known. The fruits of Masonry are good, upright, religious, charitable men, in service to their communities. I offer as contrast the hateful, decietful, fraudulent actions, words and deeds of those opposing masonry as evidence ipso facto that masonry is good, honorable and serviceable to the community.

if you want to deal with facts, try to stop applying bigotry and spin, eh?

What bigotry and spin?

I HAVE NO AXE TO GRIND WITH THE MASONS, I simply decided it was against my beliefs to join.

Star up or down, Satan and Lucifer being the same being, stuff like this makes me think that you need to do a little more RELIGIOUS research and less Masonic.

Lucifer and Satan are not necessarily the same being, read some of the old Hebrew texts, even in the Cabalistic texts they are not the same person.

If by its fruit’s the tree shall be know then why does the bible say the Lucifer often disguises himself as an angle of light?

[edit on 10/23/2004 by defcon5]

Originally posted by senrak
What bloody ceremonies? Must have been some other organization...because FIRST of all...Masonic ceremonies AREN'T bloody...AND unless you're a Mason yourself (which you obviously aren't) you couldn't have "sat through" them because ONLY Masons are allowed to witness them. No exceptions. (Oh it's "their" not "there" maybe a visit back to Grammar class would help you out...) How old are you anyway?

I have been to ceremonies that the main lodge in Dearborn Michigan to name one, sorry I guess they are not good mason’s either. By the way You could just check my profile to find out how old I am, but I would not wish to task your narrow mind.

Originally posted by senrak
Besides you aren't being polite. You're trolling.

Actually I have been on this site for quite awhile, and I believe this is the first time I have posted on anything about the masons. Trolling, I just answered the question at the top, you’re the one getting all bent out of shape, I wonder why that would be?

Did not like the answers, hit too close to home?

What inspired this set of attacks.

Just accidentally wondered into the mason only boys club?


If you don’t like the answers, don’t ask the questions, you are looking like the group of trolls now…

Originally posted by defcon5
Well chief_counsellor, I can see just in the last hour or so that I was right. This thread is apparently just for masons to sit and pat each other on the back.

If not why did you start it?

You apparently did not want to know why people relate Lucifer to the Masonic order.

Just needed a few extra points, eh?

We as Freemasons know why,...

People believe Jack Chick's cartoon crappola, still misquote Pike with the (recanted) Leo Taxil misquote (retouched picture and all), and generally make stuff up because they don't know what's going on. It's the same reason some Greek letter fraternities are accused of beastiality with "Be-e-e-ettsy", because our initiation and operation ceremones are private, "eyes-only" affairs...

Originally posted by JaseP
Being ASKED to join De Molay is not the same as being ASKED to be a Mason. To become a Mason you must Ask a Mason to join... not the other way around.

DeMolay is a club for boys sponsored by the Freemasons Fraternity. It is not the same as being a Blue Lodge Mason.

I was ASKED or suggested to join DeMolay ONCE, the other FOUR times it was the MASONS. I am not stupid and can actually tell the difference between them.

Originally posted by JaseP
No, you tried to "appear" non-inflamatory while inciting with inflamatory nonsense

There is nothing NONSENSE about my reasons not to join. They are all legitimate reasons/concerns.

Originally posted by JaseP
Symantics,... The fruit has been eaten, Mankind HAS KNOWLEDGE. It is the "original sin" that so many Churches speak of. You can't undue the knowledge part... It's the condition of Mankind. You are attempting to say that the Masonic Fraternity espouses a belief in a particular salvation through the attainment of knowledge. Freemasonry has no plan for salvaltion, that is up to the individual consciences of the Bretheren. We encourage development according to the Liberal Arts (same ones Colleges encourage), arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy, grammer, rhetoric and logic. However that does not equal a plan of salvation. Nor is it endorsement of the Gnostic Christian tradition.

You missed my point on this so completely that it is not funny. I am not blaming the masons for the fall of man, simply showing the lie of becoming god like that Satan/Lucifer/the Serpent or whoever has been using since the garden.

Originally posted by JaseP
There is no central world-wide headquarters for Freemasonry. Authority is local to the various Grand Lodges located among the various states and countries. For instance, the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania is not beholden to the Grand Lodge of England or any other Lodge.

I will be HAPPY to take a picture of it for you tonight on the way to/from work and prove it really does exist.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
well what is the information online about masonry?? the fact that masons admit openly that the basic idea is that people of all faiths are accepted and can worship their Gods with each other raises an important question. Who is the Almighty God?? Who is THE God of ALL Gods?? If all Gods are equal??

So, if it ain't YOUR faith it's the WRONG faith,... sure hope your right...

IF extensive research is taken , and compared with the holy bible it will become clearly evident that masonry is in fact a highly deceptive organisation. the lower levels or those just getting into it are deceived due to the many works of charity performed at that level, however the higher levels of masonry involve rituals.

There is no higher level than the 3rd Degree or Master Masons Degree. All the other stuff is subordinate to that. There's no "bait-n-switch." That's a lot of huey.

Rituals themselves are not just some form of fun and light entertainment but are actually only used during the progression of SORCERY. SO basically the higher you go in masonry the more you become an expert on WITCHCRAFT.

As Bob Dylan penned : " Witchcraft SCUM, exploit the DUMB turn children into PUNKS and SLAVES, who worship drug dealers , calling them healers they should all be put in their GRAVES"

Bob Dylan,... poet and Christian extraordinaire!!! Or is that burned out drug addict extraordinaire???

And your Quote from ACTS, makes no sense. How is Freemasonry sorcery or witchcraft??? Answer,... It's not. It's only your bias showing through... anyone who doesn't practice YOUR faith is wrong again... Freemasonry ceremonies are no more witchcraft than the changing of the guard, or the swearing in of a Gov't official.

And by the way, i know my Bible pretty well. I teach Sunday School (as well as Martial Arts, and martial arts and Christianity are compatible too).

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
I have never heard of a "main" Lodge, in Michigan

You guys are arguing over typo’s, semantics, and other such nonsense, its not making you look anymore correct.

By the way without even looking at your link it was off Michigan avenue.

Originally posted by defcon5
I will be HAPPY to take a picture of it for you tonight on the way to/from work and prove it really does exist.

If you need any help getting the image posted on ATS let me know (via u2u), I wouldn't want any "technical difficulties" stand in the way of this "revelation".

Oh, believe me there will not be….

This is not a paranormal or UFO thread.

I am going to sleep now, I will finish this tonight/tomorrow morning.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
IF extensive research is taken , and compared with the holy bible it will become clearly evident that masonry is in fact a highly deceptive organisation. the lower levels or those just getting into it are deceived due to the many works of charity performed at that level, however the higher levels of masonry involve rituals. Rituals themselves are not just some form of fun and light entertainment but are actually only used during the progression of SORCERY. SO basically the higher you go in masonry the more you become an expert on WITCHCRAFT.

*sigh* Witchcraft my ass.
Yet again we see the same old lame argument that the guys at the bottom know nothing about what really goes on "up top". The fact that somebody outside of the Order can state that most Freemasons themselves are ignorant whilst he himself is in possession of the truth is somewhat of a paradox, wouldn't you say? It's a tired old argument and one that has been disposed of time and time again here on ATS. You only have to have a look around to see how many "higher degree" masons post here to see that there is no hidden agenda or dark secret. Next time I talk to my friends, I'll ask them where they keep their pointy hats and broomsticks, shall I? Come to think of it, I own a black cat so maybe I'm a wizard or something?

But lets suggest that we just agree with you for a second, huh? Let's hmour you. Although you offer no shred of evidence whatsoever (and never will), let's give you the benefit of the doubt and state that performing ritual equals sorcery.....


Ritual equals witchcraft? Hmmm.... can you think of anywhere else that places ritual at the forefront of their practice?
Could it be the thousands of churches that operate under different religions? Last time I checked, all of the major religions partake in ritual - from birth to death. Does that mean that the whole of religion is witchcraft?
And what about those famous historical individuals that were able to partake in sorcery. Only isn't that sorcery now referred to as "performing miracles"?

According to that Bible passage, poor old Jesus and Mohommed are really in the #.


But I digress. Apart from the hypocrisy of the argument..... apart from the paradox within it too..... there is absolutely no evidence that ritual is a form of sorcery. Conjecture all you like, but remember that if you are coming from a religious point of view, you might like to take a look at your local church and the practices that you partake in first. After all.... according to your argument, you may be a "witch" yourself.

There have been many points raised on this thread but there is one point that I would like to raise and that is the Supreme being. In the craft Lodge he is known as the GAOTU, the GGOTHU and the Most High. He is the being that created the Universe and ever thing in it. As Freemasons we show reverence to him as we are his creation and without him we would not exist. He is also known by the Jewish people as Hashem or Adonai or El Shaddai. He is known by people of the Muslim faith as Allah. The Master of the Universe has many names but he is the same God and when in the Lodge his name is said we show respect to him. I trust that this will clarify the matter.

On another point there are orders in Freemasonry which require a Christian belief in the Holy Trinity. In the UK these are the KT, KTP, RCC, the Royal Order of Scotland and the Ancient and accepted Scottish Rite. I am a member or the KT, KTP and the RCC. The name of Jesus is said in these orders as they are Christian orders.

Brother/Frater Gerard

Originally posted by defcon5
I was ASKED or suggested to join DeMolay ONCE, the other FOUR times it was the MASONS. I am not stupid and can actually tell the difference between them.

Then those Masons were acting improperly, because I know of no Masonic bodies in North America that sanction recruiting in that fashion.

There is nothing NONSENSE about my reasons not to join. They are all legitimate reasons/concerns.

If you site reasons that are FALSE then it is nonsense. Masons do not worship false gods, there is no "bait-n-switch" within the Fraternity. If your reason for not joining was a theological one,... such as the Masons would require you not to witness to the other Brothers during lodge, or engage in a discussion of thorlogy, then that's one thing. But your reasons seem to be largely based on false assumptions about the Fraternity from spurious and slanderous/libelous sources (i.e. Jack Chick's cartoons, which are patently lies about the Fraternity).

You missed my point on this so completely that it is not funny. I am not blaming the masons for the fall of man, simply showing the lie of becoming god like that Satan/Lucifer/the Serpent or whoever has been using since the garden.

Actually I didn't. The whole Gnostic tradition is about gaining knowledge to become saved through attainment of that knowledge. There is no such tradition within Freemasonry. There is no plan for salvation or becoming a "god" in Freemasonry. Now, the Mormon Church has in the past stolen some Masonic ritual and incorporated in in their own, and that's what you may have found,... but there is nothing in Freemasonry which is contrary to any man's religion.

I will be HAPPY to take a picture of it for you tonight on the way to/from work and prove it really does exist.

Please do. It may very well be a clandestine masonic body, a so-called Cernau Lodge or some other non-recognized Masonic body. OR, it may be a Shrine center or the locus of some charitable endeavor tied to the Masons... Take your picture, we'll happily tell you what the building is...

But the fact remains that there is no central world authority on Freemasonry. Each Grand Lodge is the supreme authority in its Masonic Jurisdiction.

Originally posted by defcon5
Quite hostile, aren’t we, what did I touch a nerve,

Nope. Just sick of the silly nonsense spread about Masons.

Well, sorry to say, there must not be many good masons out there, because I have been ASKED to join no less then 5 times in my life.

Must have been by guys who joined for the wrong reasons...or simply weren't paying attention.

You are correct, it was DeMolay, which is a Masonic organization, if not an actual mason. My point in the story was that this was where my interaction with the masons, at any level, began.

That's fine. But again, DeMolay isn't Masonry.

Straight from the mouth of my church, and get off the spelling, see how good you spell after a 12 hour night shift, Also I use a spell checker that occasionally tends to change what it is that I have typed on its own.

You say later it's the Lutheran Church. I've heard quite a bit of Anti-Masonry from various branches of the Lutheran Church. Missouri Synod Lutherans in particular so I'm not surprised. Interestinly the District Deputy Grand Master of our District is a member of the Lutheran Church here in town.

Next several quotes nothing but insults and not worth answering…

Aw...I'm SO sorry that I struck a nerve...

“God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3: 5 King James Version, The Bible and King Solomon’s Temple In Masonry By John Wesley Kelchner, Illustrated, 1924, 1925, 1929, 1930, 1940 by A.J. Holman and Company.

My Grandfathers Bible.

Please note the difference in God and, “as gods.”

Uhm...OK. So what?

Funny it is the symbol to the Order of the Eastern Star, by your own admission a club for masons and their wives.

Yep. A SYMBOL. SYMBOL. Not worshipped and not symbolizing Satanism. It CAN symbolize Satanism, but it doesn't in this case. Life is FULL of symbols. One has to see beyond the symbol itself to the thing that is symbolized and remember that a symbol can symbolize different things to different people. The Cross is a good example. It can symbolize Christianity. It can symbolize first aid (the Red Cross for example...or an ambulance)

Funny I have seen a picture of him wearing one, I will get it to you later after I get back up.

If you did, it's a fake. Pure and simple. There are plenty of pictures of Pike in his Scottish Rite regalia, but none have him wearing (as you say) a "Baphomet"

BLAZING you say, kind luminous?

BLAZING I say. On fire.

Yep, too bad they hung it upside down, EH?
Yes we are all aware that when children drawn simplistic stars in the sky of a picture they do it with the point facing the ground, or maybe children are just smarter then you, and draw them UPRIGHT…

Uhm. Who defines whether it's upside down or not? Is a triangle with a point down still a triangle? Or is it an upside down triangle? Is a square standing on one corner and not sitting on a flat side still a square? Would it be sideways then? What about an ellipse? Should the long side be horizontal or the short one? Oh, and I wasn't pointing out your spelling errors. We all are guilty of those. I'm pointing out grammar errors because they drive me crazy. You say "maybe children are smarter THEN you" That isn't a spelling error. The word is THAN. Smarter THAN you. Not THEN. If you want to sound intelligent, try to write that way.

Bethlehem is not spelled right.

Mea culpa! (See above)

Actually it only says the serpent, I will check in the psudopigraphial books later, and get back with you.

Forgive my ignorance. What are the "psudopigraphial" books? That word isn't in the Oxford English Dictionary...nor anything close to it. Do you mean perhaps the Deuterocanonical books?

He is not even significant enough in the Bible to get more then a line, why is he significant to you at all?

He plays an important part in Masonic ceremony. What difference would it make how much stage-time he got in the Bible? Masonry isn't religion. It does draw some (SOME) of it's ceremonies from Biblical stories and characters, but not all.

Zany is spelled incorrectly

Nope. There are several spellings.

From the Oxford English Dictionary.

Zany: Also 6-7 zani, zanie, 7 zane, zanee, zanni, (pl. zaneese), 8 zaney.

{snip}
B. attrib. passing into adj. a. attrib. That is a zany, or characteristic of a zany; imitative; clownish; foolish, idiotic. b. adj. Comically idiotic, crazily ridiculous.
The adjectival use of the word (as if an adj. formed with -Y1) is now the dominant one. In quot. 1938, ‘simple-minded’ (cf. sense 2d).

“The final painting (page 8) illustrates the symbolic death and rebirth that candidates experience at later stages of initiation” Mysteries of the Unknown, Ancient Wisdom and Secret Sects, Page 8, Time Life Books.

Oh. Excellent news. Time Life Books are an authority on Masonry! I wasn't aware of their Masonic stature. I have that set. Pretty interesting. On page 9 (opposite the picture you reference) they mention the "ritual death and rebirth" of this degree (the Master Mason) Interestingly, Masonic ritual, at the death of the Builder, specifically says his body will be borne to the Temple for more decent interment. Having grown up in the funeral business I happen to know interment means "burial" Sounds to me like he's still dead. But wait, I'm referring to legitimate Masonic ritual. I forgot I'm supposed to believe Time Life Books.

Actually I am a Lutheran, not a Fundamentalist. True they do not use the term, “Born Again”, but that does not mean that I do not know what this term implies, and as such shy away from any organization that is going to make me reenact such an event.

Well, as I've said, we DON'T re-enact being born again. We don't ACT being born again. But please shy away from us anyway.

Originally posted by senrak
Probably the silliest statement you've made. 32nd, 33rd, etc. etc. have nothing to do with anyone "running the whole organization" There is no centralized Masonic Authority. Each Grand Lodge (one in every U.S. state) and one in every free country around the globe) is autonymous. And members of the Grand Lodges (the officers) need only be 3rd Degree Masons (Master Mason) 32nd & 33rd are numbers of degrees but not higher degrees than Master Mason (3rd Degree) This, too and the fact that there is NO "supreme" Grand Lodge etc. has been discussed over and over on this forum and more information is readily available on the web, in libraries and bookstores from legitimate Masonic sources.

Humorously enough their world headquarters is in the town I am in here in Tampa on Memorial ave. SO, I guess that it is staffed solely by the members of local lodges as full time volunteers, or is there a actual corporate hierarchy to the masons as well?

Who's world headquarters? There IS NO World Headquarters for Masonry. I've said that. The Grand Lodge of Missouri is the "headquarters" for the Lodge I belong to. It's in Columbia Missouri (about 3 hours from here) The Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite that I belong to is in Washington DC. The Shrine Headquarters is in Tampa. Shriners draw their membership from Masons, but the Shrine isn't Masonry. Their purpose is to support the Shrine Children't Hospitals which provide free medical help to crippled and burned children (sounds EVIL, huh?) The Shrine is also a "fun" organization. Overgrown children in some ways (I can say that. I'm also a Shriner)

I think you mean antonymous

I certainly don't think so. Particularly since there (once again) is no such word. I did however mean "autonomous" (Mea culpa on the spelling)

Autonomous:

1. Of or pertaining to an autonomy.
2. Possessed of autonomy, self-governing, independent. In Metaph.: see AUTONOMY 1c.
3. Biol. a. Conforming to its own laws only, and not subject to higher ones. b. Independent, i.e. not a mere form or state of some other organism.

Well, better to stick with something safe then go onto something that I don’t think that even all the members fully understand. I have read as much as I care to on the subject, and more then enough to make an informed decision for myself, many of my sources where YOUR OWN BOOKS, that were left after my grandfather died.

I can't argue with that. Go ahead and "stick to something safe" You obviously don't understand Masonry (and I DON'T mean that as an insult) You have preconceived notions and your church disapproves of it. Have a good time doing something safe. Whatever that may be.

Originally posted by defcon5
Well chief_counsellor, I can see just in the last hour or so that I was right. This thread is apparently just for masons to sit and pat each other on the back.
If not why did you start it?
You apparently did not want to know why people relate Lucifer to the Masonic order.
Just needed a few extra points, eh?

Chief_Counsellor isn't a Mason. He's a Knight of Columbus (another fine fraternal organization, by the way.)

And the Masons on the group aren't patting each other on the back. We're telling the truth and disputing your un-truths.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction

IF extensive research is taken , and compared with the holy bible it will become clearly evident that masonry is in fact a highly deceptive organisation. the lower levels or those just getting into it are deceived due to the many works of charity performed at that level, however the higher levels of masonry involve rituals. Rituals themselves are not just some form of fun and light entertainment but are actually only used during the progression of SORCERY. SO basically the higher you go in masonry the more you become an expert on WITCHCRAFT.

Actually ALL the Degrees of Masonry involve ritual. So does Sunday Mass at church, or Sunday services. Things which are done over and over are ritual. The swearing in of the President of the United States is a "ritual" Does that make the President a Witch?


I hate to get into the silliness of your statement about "higher" level Masons. It's been addressed over and over and over and over... There are none. There are Officers who preside over Lodges and Grand Officers preside over Grand Lodges. In the various other Masonic side-groups (York Rite, Scottish Rite, etc.) there are officers who preside. They aren't "higher" level Masons. I'm no lower in rank than the Grand Master of Masons of my state. He and I are both Master Masons (3rd Degree) There is NO HIGHER LEVEL THAN THIRD DEGREE: MASTER MASON. I've taken the 32nd Degree and received the Knight Commander of the Court of Honor. My best friend is a 33rd Degree Mason, but he's not "higher level" than I am...nor than any other Master Mason (3rd Degree)

Not Witchcraft. Not by a long shot. Suggest you read "Crafting the Art of Magic" It's out of print, but a web-search might turn up a used copy. Very interesting and informative reading for thinking people.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by senrak
What bloody ceremonies? Must have been some other organization...because FIRST of all...Masonic ceremonies AREN'T bloody...AND unless you're a Mason yourself (which you obviously aren't) you couldn't have "sat through" them because ONLY Masons are allowed to witness them. No exceptions. (Oh it's "their" not "there" maybe a visit back to Grammar class would help you out...) How old are you anyway?

I have been to ceremonies that the main lodge in Dearborn Michigan to name one, sorry I guess they are not good mason’s either. By the way You could just check my profile to find out how old I am, but I would not wish to task your narrow mind.
[/quote

You may have been to an Installation of Officers ceremony, but you've never attended a Masonic Initiation if you're not a Mason. And you obviously aren't.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by JaseP
There is no central world-wide headquarters for Freemasonry. Authority is local to the various Grand Lodges located among the various states and countries. For instance, the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania is not beholden to the Grand Lodge of England or any other Lodge.

I will be HAPPY to take a picture of it for you tonight on the way to/from work and prove it really does exist.

\

A picture of the world-wide headquarters of Freemasonry that doesn't exist. PLEASE DO! I'd LOVE to see it. It could be a Grand Lodge building, a Lodge Building or the Shriners HQ, but it ISN'T the world-wide Masonic head quarters. There is NOT ONE.