Lets talk about euthanasia, suiside and 7 billion people.

Okay so the issues surrounding euthanasia and suicide are obviously very uncomfortable, especially in religion and i think im going to take a moment to read the rules quickly to make sure what i want to talk about is not offensive...... okay i read the forum rules and what im about to say isnt i think in breach of that.

I put out a question to everyone, that it could be the will of a developing species through advanced social and global awareness that the mental state of some through suicide (not through drug use or sexual/violent abuse induced) people should be tolerated, for the good of the better stronger of the species to be able to choose.

And then if that might be something we could tolerate could we not learn to live with the fact that someone terminally sick and in pain who wouldn't, nay, couldn't reproduce anyway (not to mention possibly further diseased/genetically damaged offspring) be given the option to be allowed to be either excused for suicide or via euthanasia?

Is it not possible we might have to get over ourselves now we have 7 billion mouths on the planet, like locusts in terms of the food available, eating everything up while growing more all the time.

To ignore an individuals will and ignore a future crisis at the same time could be considered stupid, but do we consider ourselves a stupid species? Intelligence is sometimes overwhelmed with passion, like so many evil men, but no ones forcing anyone into anything here. Why not let those that wish not to live do so, how does it bother you or impact you besides the obvious emotional attachment to a close friend or family member?

Perhaps being more open minded is one of the next steps to controlling our race while still respecting everyone, and perhaps in a way more so for being brave enough to chose do do that for them , their pain, and our futures.

I hope this post is not in any breach of rules i could find, its the idea im interesting in here and the discussion behind it, not handing out "just encase" cyanide pills or anything.

Biigs

In my own opinion, the people that believe that there is too many people on this planet, and that some need to be snuffed out for no other reason than to reduce the population, for the good of the many. Those people should practice what they preach and kill themselves now. Otherwise they are flaming hypocrites.

If they did kill themselves, and leave the rest of us alone, the world would be a lot better off.

............end of line.........

control of your physical body is your most basic right. I fully support this idea.

I never had the "option in" to life, but I certainly wouldn't mind having an "option out".

have you ever seen the final sequence in "soylent green"? I think its really beautiful.

You know, 7 billion is a lot of people to be sure. Many mouths to feed...However, on a planetary level? It's not THAT many. I know it's hard to think of it that way in Europe or England...or much of our U.S. East Coast for that matter. People choose to live nearly on top of each other and by the millions. I have no idea what the 'group think' behind all that is because it's just crazy to seek it out as a way of life.

I have to note though, outside of the developed areas? It's a big big empty world out there. Far more empty than not.....and much of the food issues right now are man made. MAN decided water was better for fish than crops so California's flow of produce had steadily dropped for years. The US is in a drought. That kills much of the wheat exports. Africa is in a near constant state of civil wars somewhere and no one over there seems to get peace long enough to farm and develop what has been. Russia sustained massive flooding this past season and that whacked their wheat crop as well as more headaches and hassles from man around the globe.

Life is what we make it...and while I agree we gotta slooooow down on that exponential growth stuff because the math does fail eventually...I don't think we're anywhere near that yet as a Planet. Just regionally in many places and common sense to say hey... this can't go like this for much longer.

I recommend reading the wiki on Overpopulation first.

Under the section title Carrying Capacity:

There is wide variability both in the definition and in the proposed size of the Earth's carrying capacity, with estimates ranging from less than 1 to 1000 billion humans (1 trillion).[69] A 2001 UN report said that two-thirds of the estimates fall in the range of 4 billion to 16 billion (with unspecified standard errors), with a median of about 10 billion.[70] More recent estimates are much lower, particularly if resource depletion and increased world affluence are considered.[71][72]

Thus, there seems to be no firm numbers on where the tipping point is where it all debatable.

Perhaps a more pertinent question might be how to go about a more equitable distribution of wealth considering that the main concern regarding over population is the effect it has on quality of life where larger populations are impoverished and go to starving.
At the same time, the wealthy get wealthier.

Perhaps were there a more equitable distribution of wealth in meeting the basic requirements of everyone at the sacrifice of a few Ferrari sports cars, a few extra summer and winter homes next to owning more than one extravagant residence, a few yachts, and other extra accessories and trapping of the wealthy, then, more people might get food, housing, medical care, and educations.

ive not seen soylent green.

the population doubles every 50 years or so, what i suggest will not stop that by any mean by any major percentage, but the population WILL double every 50 years, at some point thats too many people, its pure math since the planet is a limited space at some point.

therefore why really restrict those who may slow it down with no impact to the 'healthy' population, making smarter faster healthier humans.

if it doesn't effect you or anyone and its their choice, why not allow and not be quite so negative. Many people live perfectly good and happy lives, just because they have the option to get out doesnt mean they will just chuck it all in on any given day from a bad day at work!

I dont think this way but i accept that such things might be in an intelligent species future, to really control its environment and its impact on it, to actually survive million more years. Lets stop pretending wars are okay and this cant be one day.

Give options not bombs perhaps?

Maybe you should step off.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You know we share this planet with other living things right?

I'm not an advocate of population reduction, however there seems to be little regard shown by the 'overpopulation deniers' towards the multitude of 'lower' species that can do nothing but run, hide, flee, watch and die as we humans eat, burn, pollute, destroy and f^^k this planet into a wasteland.

People who think this problem is about space are nuts.

Here's what you need to read: just read it. first section is on overpopulation
but really, just read it all....

Originally posted by Biigs

Is it not possible we might have to get over ourselves now we have 7 billion mouths on the planet, like locusts in terms of the food available, eating everything up while growing more all the time.

Yeah, it's a pretty bad scenario. We're supposed to hit the wall here pretty soon. Aldous Huxley said in 50-100 years SHTF. And that was in 1959. So we're in that happy timeframe!! It's not necessarily the overpopulation itself that's the direct problem....but it effects the other problems. I don't really have time to explain it.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
In my own opinion, the people that believe that there is too many people on this planet, and that some need to be snuffed out for no other reason than to reduce the population

There are too many people on the planet. and what the OP is suggesting is not that we snuff some out. Just let the ones who want out, have an easy way out. Like abortion, okay we get it, it's probably something that's wrong. But it beats the alternative of having a starving kid in the streets.

The options the OP suggests are MUCH better than the alternative. The alternative is we double our population in 30 years(that was the rate that it was at for much of the 20th century). At some point, there won't be enough food for entire countries, and nuclear war will break out. There IS a limit that the population can reach before things get very ugly.

and I'd rather do some relatively humane things now(even if they aren't the ideal thing), before we actually have to kill off people just to survive.
you seem to be opposed to "snuffing" people out.....well you don't realize that by stopping people from dying who want to die, you're actually forcing the very thing you really don't want.

I'd rather allow a few necessary evils today, like abortion, before some necessary evils tomorrow, like directly killing people.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Before anyone talks about reducing the population due to not enough food, I think another thing to look at is how much food is wasted!

I agree Wrabbit, as of now, we have plenty of food to feed everyone the problem is how much we throw away and waste.....

If someone wants to end their life, the way that they want to, I don't have any problem with that.

Live and let live, I believe we were born with the intellectual capability of free will, let people utilize theirs until they infringe on someone else's capability of free will. How someone chooses to end their own life, without endangering others, is absolutely not my business.

You know what? It isn't the governments business either.

Peace.

Sometimes it seems that there's not enough food to go around, but alot of that has to do with cultures being picky about what they eat. The heaviest populated areas of this globe are not filled with picky eaters. East Asia to be specific. What can't you find on a menu in Thailand or Japan for that matter?

The Earth will sustain us. We just need to be brave and eat that soggy plant life floating in the sea, or that hundred-legged bug looking thing that was attached to it.

Don't go all dark-side and talk about culling the herd. That road leads you to a bad place in the end.

Be positive, and think about good things like Bacon, Seaweed, and Tomato sandwiches?

(Bacon could solve the world hunger problem, pigs can thrive in many climates and aren't exactly picky eaters themselves which only promotes their worthiness as fodder for the hungry humans.)

ATS: Bacon Appreciation Thread

reply to post by Biigs


Give people the ability to end ones life and then the talk for government deciding who lives and who dies for some of the reasons you listed.

If you think the world is over populated then by all means please do something about it yourself and not procreate.



I think anyone who touts overpopulation should put them and their family on the chopping block first. Lead by example

Your talk can easily lead down the path of eugenics. I think we have visited that path before in our history with very devastating effects.

While I don't quite know how I feel about the overpopulation aspect of this question, I do know how I feel about the compassionate side of it. In my opinion, one's life is their own. While every reasonable attempt should be made to help people find happiness, health, fulfillment, healing when needed, and reasons to live, there are people who for whatever reason cannot find those things, or who are terminally ill and suffering more than most of us can probably appreciate or imagine. In those cases, I believe a person should have the right to end their life. I know that is not a particularly popular view among some, but it is nevertheless both my feeling and my rational opinion.

The demonizing of those who commit suicide as weak, failures, etc. when we can never walk in their shoes, is something I have ethical qualms with. People may say, "Ah, but I went through comparable pain and agony and was strong enough to endure." But that's just it. You were strong enough to endure, and found reasons to endure. Clearly, if someone else didn't, you can't really say you've been in their rhetorical shoes. You've only been in yours, and that's not quite sufficient to cast judgment and condemn someone in my mind.

I don't condone or endorse suicide. I believe, as I said, every effort should be made to avoid it if at all possible. But I will not condemn someone posthumously for making a choice I can't fathom or step inside of to fully comprehend. That's not my job as a fellow human being. My job is to try to help where I can, and then step aside when I can't.

Peace.

Some good posts im glad this thread did not attract any haters that thought i had any evil hidden agenda so often associated with suicide, or evil doctors with euthanasia.

It is not any sort of cure for over population and im not suggesting it is, but while so many die in pain at the hands of others, is it really so bad to let those in pain also chose to take their own life, without being demonised and their family's shamed?

The cure to overpopulation has all ways been the fear of being over run by the enemy numbers, so attack while you are superior in numbers before they are a threat, take their stuff while your there of course. But drama when one person, decides that the pain is too much and thats suddenly not OK, im sure sure where any god would stand on that one morrally

reply to post by Biigs


the choice of suicide for someone who is terminally ill, should be a basic right. no one should be condemned to suffer who knows how many days, months, or years enduring pain, be it mental or physical. but not one who suffers from a mental disorder. i'm talking the mental pain of thinking about dieing some might face

euthanasia never for any reason.

and as another member posted above, those who purpose such a solution should get over themselves and take their family. and lead by example.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
In my own opinion, the people that believe that there is too many people on this planet, and that some need to be snuffed out for no other reason than to reduce the population, for the good of the many. Those people should practice what they preach and kill themselves now. Otherwise they are flaming hypocrites.

If they did kill themselves, and leave the rest of us alone, the world would be a lot better off.

............end of line.........

Nice reply. But it's not the people who see the problem who need to go, in order for the problem to be solved. Though it's nice to see ones true colours off the bat. Saves time wondering what it is they're trying to say later.

There *ARE* too many people on this planet. And while I am content to wait for things to get better (holds breath) I am not planning on jumping the ship to make it better for the problem makers.

I don't think this should have a thing to do with overpopulation, but I do believe people have the right to end their lives when they see fit. It's not an option I would take but I don't judge those who do.

I think it should be a basic right for the terminally ill to be able to seek medically assisted suicide. No one should have to suffer through that if they don't want to.

As for overpopulation, the problem is not really life for people. We will limp on regardless even if our living quality leaves a lot to be desired. The problem is what will happen to other species on this planet who deserve the same regard we give ourselves. I think the real solution is male (and expanded access to female) birth control personally.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
In my own opinion, the people that believe that there is too many people on this planet, and that some need to be snuffed out for no other reason than to reduce the population, for the good of the many. Those people should practice what they preach and kill themselves now. Otherwise they are flaming hypocrites.

If they did kill themselves, and leave the rest of us alone, the world would be a lot better off.

............end of line.........

Maybe, but I think you missed what the OP was saying. The OP was not supporting killing people because our population is too large. Not at all. All he/she was saying was that those who wish to kill themselves, without any outside urging, should be allowed to do so. Or the OP may have just been raising the question, without expressing support either way. I do not know if your message was intended for the OP, but if so, I think you owe them an apology.

If however you were just speaking in general terms, although what you mention was not the topic of discussion, then I would probably have to agree with you for the most part. Now, to address the topic the OP mentions. I think that you are overlooking a possibility. That possibility is that those who wish to kill themselves are not right mentally. I think you may have addressed this by stating that those who are not well maybe should not reproduce, although you phrased it quite differently. So my point is that it is possible that those who wish to kill themselves probably would not want to take that drastic action if they were well mentally or physically speaking. So should they go ahead and commit suicide, or seek help for their psychological or physical problems?

If not, what is the point of the medical field at all? I think it is obvious where I am going with this. I am not saying, by the way, that I am positive this is correct. I am just raising the question and possibility, since I believe that anyone who commits heinous crimes, commits suicide, etc., are not well mentally, as these actions do not seem to me to be the actions of a healthy person. I don't like to use the word "normal" though, because what is normal? Healthy however can be applied to all humans.

For being a stupid species, we are hard to kill. We seem to crave the antidotes for their poisons. They are working on that problem.