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Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
since HAARP cannot be shown with any credibility to actually be a weapon, why do you make this stupid claim?
Because the navy and the air force operate the program and the funding goes to DOD.
Big "if" - got any evidence that they can be created at sea level?
Cosmic rays and cloud formation
CLOUD is an experiment that uses a cloud chamber to study the possible link between galactic cosmic rays and cloud formation.
The initial stage of the experiment uses a prototype detector, but the full CLOUD experiment will include an advanced cloud chamber and a reactor chamber, equipped with a wide range of external instrumentation to monitor and analyse their contents. The temperature and pressure conditions anywhere in the atmosphere can be re-created within the chambers, and all experimental conditions can be controlled and measured, including the ‘cosmic ray’ intensity and the contents of the chambers.
Cosmic particle ignition of artificially ionized plasma patterns in the atmosphere
1. A method of creating one or more artificially ionized regions in the air called cosmic particle ignition by synchronizing the establishment of an electric field pattern at an altitude above the earth's surface with the natural occurrence of ionization trails created by cosmic particles...
3. The method of claim 1 wherein the cosmic particle is a primary cosmic ray or secondary cosmic ray electrons occurring at altitudes between sea level and 40,000 KM.
Lightning storms, like all weather, originate in the troposphere.
The first process in the generation of lightning is still a matter of debate:[5] one common idea from scientists is that lightning forms from the ejection of charged particles from the sun, which reach Earth through the solar wind.[6] These charged particles cause the Earth to acquire an electric charge in its outer atmospheric layers, especially the ionosphere. Large quantities of ice in the clouds are suspected to enhance lightning development.[7] This charge will neutralize itself through any available path. This may assist in the forcible separation of positive and negative charge carriers within a cloud or air, and thus help in the formation of lightning.
What causes lightning could be a question which might intrigue us. Lightning is said to take place in the ionosphere. When liquid and ice particles clash with each other, they form massive electrical fields, dissipating an electric spark which we refer to as lightning. The temperature inside a lightning bolt reaches around 50,000º C, which is even greater than the surface temperature of the Sun!
Now scientists have discovered another type of lightning--gigantic jets--that link the tops of clouds to the overlying charged atmosphere, known as the ionosphere.
All five jets, the authors write, "establish a direct link between a thundercloud and the ionosphere," and measurements showed that there was a significant flow of current moving charge upward from the clouds. The researchers also detected extremely-low-frequency radio waves that were detected thousands of kilometers away during four of the five events.
ELF electromagnetic radiation does not cause earth to vibrate.
Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus
Thx for finding this study. It explains a lot. HIPAS/UCLA were already conceptually and feasibly up to plus/minus 10 giga watts ERP compared to HAARP's stated 4 giga watts ERP.
Missile defense by way of disrupting communications? Not that I am aware of. The only mention that I see is possible using it to detect them, not disrupt. If you want to say that the detection of them is what constitutes defense, then yes, the term "missile defense" fits.
“It’s an open plasma-physics laboratory,” says Dennis Papadopoulos, a physics professor at the University of Maryland who helped conceive the idea for HAARP with the Naval Research Lab more than 30 years ago. “You test ideas and scientific theories. Then, if something’s important to the Department of Defense, you apply it.”
And now, 15 years after construction on the station began, HAARP’s managers are seeing what the fully powered system can do; most recently, they’ve begun zapping the moon with the hope of determining the composition of its soil.
The Claim: HAARP is designed to take out satellites and missiles.
The late physicist Bernard Eastlund believed that HAARP was built using patents of his that included satellite- and missile-disabling technology.
The Rebuttal: The Air Force, Navy and Darpa deny that they used Eastlund’s patents. Killing missiles and satellites would require injecting particles into the radiation belt, which is impossible.
Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Phage
Lightning storms, like all weather, originate in the troposphere.
Wow. So is this like spontaneous combustion or something?
Lightning Formation
The first process in the generation of lightning is still a matter of debate:[5] one common idea from scientists is that lightning forms from the ejection of charged particles from the sun, which reach Earth through the solar wind.[6] These charged particles cause the Earth to acquire an electric charge in its outer atmospheric layers, especially the ionosphere. Large quantities of ice in the clouds are suspected to enhance lightning development.[7] This charge will neutralize itself through any available path. This may assist in the forcible separation of positive and negative charge carriers within a cloud or air, and thus help in the formation of lightning.
Cloud particle collision hypothesis
According to this cloud particle charging hypothesis, charges are separated when ice crystals rebound off graupel. Charge separation appears to require strong updrafts which carry water droplets upward, supercooling them to between -10 and -40 °C (14 and -40 °F). These water droplets collide with ice crystals to form a soft ice-water mixture called graupel. Collisions between ice crystals and graupel pellets usually result in positive charge being transferred to the ice crystals, and negative charge to the graupel.[23]
Updrafts drive the less heavy ice crystals upwards, causing the cloud top to accumulate increasing positive charge. Gravity causes the heavier negatively charged graupel to fall toward the middle and lower portions of the cloud, building up an increasing negative charge. Charge separation and accumulation continue until the electrical potential becomes sufficient to initiate a lightning discharge, which occurs when the distribution of positive and negative charges forms a sufficiently strong/high electric field.[23]
Polarization mechanism hypothesis
The mechanism by which charge separation happens is still the subject of research. A hypothesised mechanism is polarization, which has two components:[24]
Falling droplets of ice and rain become electrically polarized as they fall through the earth's magnetic field;
Colliding/rebounding cloud particles become oppositely charged.
There are several hypotheses for the origin of charge separation.[25][26][27]
Initiation
Even assuming an electric field has been established, the mechanism by which the lightning discharge begins is not well known. Electric field measurements in thunderclouds are typically not large enough to directly initiate a discharge.[28] Many hypotheses have been proposed, ranging from including runaway breakdown to locally enhanced electric fields near elongated water droplets or ice crystals.[29] Percolation theory, especially for the case of biased percolation,[30] describe random connectivity phenomena, which produce an evolution of connected structures similar to that of lightning strikes.
Originally posted by AndyMayhew
HAARP by definition cannot affect the weather. Any more than a kettle can.
Despite many claims, it can't even make a pot of tea (HAARP, that is - a kettle is an intrical part of making a pot of tea (for any Americans out there, seawater is not))
Understand what the ionosphere is and then come back.
There is no honour in deliberately and knowingly spreading lies and nonsense. Nor in refusing to learn about what it is you purport to speak about.
Originally posted by luxordelphi
Here's a little sentence from that same popsci article that could use a little more information (particularly in the use of the word 'zapping'):
And now, 15 years after construction on the station began, HAARP’s managers are seeing what the fully powered system can do; most recently, they’ve begun zapping the moon with the hope of determining the composition of its soil.
Originally posted by luxordelphi
Originally posted by AndyMayhew
HAARP by definition cannot affect the weather. Any more than a kettle can.
Despite many claims, it can't even make a pot of tea (HAARP, that is - a kettle is an intrical part of making a pot of tea (for any Americans out there, seawater is not))
Understand what the ionosphere is and then come back.
There is no honour in deliberately and knowingly spreading lies and nonsense. Nor in refusing to learn about what it is you purport to speak about.
Dear AndyMayhew: HAARP, openly and admittedly, is in the ionosphere to find out what it is. Researchers are trying to understand the ionosphere. To tell me to go and do that and then come back - go ahead: pave the way.
Originally posted by Uncinus
Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus
Thx for finding this study. It explains a lot. HIPAS/UCLA were already conceptually and feasibly up to plus/minus 10 giga watts ERP compared to HAARP's stated 4 giga watts ERP.
But that was momentary peak output, whereas HAARP is continuous.
And it's 25 meters long, and you'd need a bunch of them next to each other.
The HF Transmitter at the HAARP Research Station is used intermittently and is primarily operated to support research campaigns where groups of scientists collaborate to conduct interactive ionospheric research.
The HF Transmitter is used during research campaigns to support interactive study of the ionosphere. A typical research period may last one or two weeks and several such campaigns may occur in a given year.
According to a 1982 Air Force review of biotechnology, ELF has a number of potential military uses, including "dealing with terrorist groups, crowd control, controlling breaches of security at military installations, and antipersonnel techniques in tactical warfare." "Electromagnetic systems would be used to produce mild to severe physiological disruption or perceptual distortion or disorientation. They are silent, and counter measures to them may be difficult to develop."
Originally posted by luxordelphi
Originally posted by Uncinus
Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus
Thx for finding this study. It explains a lot. HIPAS/UCLA were already conceptually and feasibly up to plus/minus 10 giga watts ERP compared to HAARP's stated 4 giga watts ERP.
But that was momentary peak output, whereas HAARP is continuous.
And it's 25 meters long, and you'd need a bunch of them next to each other.
Continuous? That's not what the HAARP site itself says.
HAARP FAQ
The HF Transmitter at the HAARP Research Station is used intermittently and is primarily operated to support research campaigns where groups of scientists collaborate to conduct interactive ionospheric research.
-Princeton article
The HAARP project directs a 3.6 MW signal, in the 2.8–10 MHz region of the HF (high-frequency) band, into the ionosphere. The signal may be pulsed or continuous.
What about GWEN? That was another nomadic feat - disappearing overnight ( in the press anyway.)
The Ground-Wave Emergency Network (GWEN) System
According to a 1982 Air Force review of biotechnology, ELF has a number of potential military uses, including "dealing with terrorist groups, crowd control, controlling breaches of security at military installations, and antipersonnel techniques in tactical warfare." "Electromagnetic systems would be used to produce mild to severe physiological disruption or perceptual distortion or disorientation. They are silent, and counter measures to them may be difficult to develop."
And wasn't GWEN mostly underground anyway?
The overall site area of a relay node was approximately 11 acres (4.5 ha), approximately 700 feet (210 m) × 700 feet. Typical site features include a longwave transmitting tower (generally between 290 and 299 feet (88 and 91 m) tall), a backup diesel generator with a two-chambered fuel tank having a capacity of 1,020 US gallons (3,900 l), 8-foot (2.4 m) × 14-foot (4.3 m) × 8-foot antenna-tuning unit (ATU) in the center of the site, and a radio processor; electronic equipment was housed in three shelters. Two of the shelters were located inside the fenced area at the perimeter of the property, and the other at the base of the tower.
The GWEN transmitter sites include:
A 299-foot (91 m) broadcast antenna tower
A large ground plane, designed for ground conductivity conditions at the site
An antenna tuning unit enclosure at the base of the tower
Two equipment shelters
Electronic racks that will accept the DGPS equipment
All utilities that are required for operation of the DGPS broadcast site
Air conditioning and environmental controls
Back-up power generators
Above ground fuel storage tanks
Security enclosures with intrusion alarms
Originally posted by luxordelphi
Originally posted by Uncinus
Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus
Thx for finding this study. It explains a lot. HIPAS/UCLA were already conceptually and feasibly up to plus/minus 10 giga watts ERP compared to HAARP's stated 4 giga watts ERP.
But that was momentary peak output, whereas HAARP is continuous.
And it's 25 meters long, and you'd need a bunch of them next to each other.
Continuous? That's not what the HAARP site itself says.
HAARP FAQ
The HF Transmitter at the HAARP Research Station is used intermittently and is primarily operated to support research campaigns where groups of scientists collaborate to conduct interactive ionospheric research.
Why are you quoting some random site called "Bazpedia"? It claims to be "a copy of Wikipedia", but it's nothing at all like what Wikipedia says...
Scientists have long assumed that this mostly hidden side of thunderstorms serves as the electrical "pump" that maintains a huge difference in charge between the earth's surface and an upper layer of the atmosphere called the ionosphere. There's a voltage drop between the two, measuring somewhere between 150,000 and 600,000 volts. Left to itself, this difference should naturally balance out in about 15 minutes, but it doesn't.
He explains: "The earth and its atmosphere are like a giant electric circuit. In fair weather, the charge difference between the ionosphere and the ground drives a steady trickle of current from the atmosphere to the ground, despite the fact that air is a poor conductor of electricity."
Earth's surface and the ionosphere form an electrical circuit. Thunderstorms help keep the current flowing.
Mechanisms that cause lightning are still a matter of scientific investigation.[10] [11]
Even assuming an electric field has been established, the mechanism by which the lightning discharge begins is not well known.
"Upper-atmospheric lightning" refers to electric discharges that occur in the upper atmosphere above the altitude for ordinary lightning. Some of these phenomena are called elves, sprites and blue jets.
Elves, which occur above areas of active cloud-to-ground lightning, may result from electromagnetic pulses extending into the portion of the atmosphere called the ionosphere.
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Elves, which occur above areas of active cloud-to-ground lightning, may result from electromagnetic pulses extending into the portion of the atmosphere called the ionosphere.
Lightning storms supposedly originate in the ionosphere so that's probably where one would go in order to agitate a storm like that.
Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Phage
Gigantic Jets Connect Thunderclouds to the Ionosphere
Now scientists have discovered another type of lightning--gigantic jets--that link the tops of clouds to the overlying charged atmosphere, known as the ionosphere.
All five jets, the authors write, "establish a direct link between a thundercloud and the ionosphere," and measurements showed that there was a significant flow of current moving charge upward from the clouds. The researchers also detected extremely-low-frequency radio waves that were detected thousands of kilometers away during four of the five events.
luxordelphi did not understand what Uncinus had said.
Luxordelphi replied to schedule, while critics replied on the technical aspect.
luxordelphi said that lightning storms originate in the ionosphere. Please present scientific literature which debates the origin of lightning storms as being located in the troposphere.
Critics focus on the strict lightning while Luxordelphi referred to the triggers, which in the current science literature there is heated debate on ionospheric processes as a trigger mechanism.
luxordelphi said that lightning storms originate in the ionosphere. Please present scientific literature which debates the origin of lightning storms as being located in the troposphere.
Originally posted by wujotvowujotvowujotvo
Critics focus on the strict lightning while Luxordelphi referred to the triggers, which in the current science literature there is heated debate on ionospheric processes as a trigger mechanism.