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An Apology from Canada to Palestine and the Rest of the World

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posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by optimus primal
reply to post by Battleline
 


I like how, anytime someone disagrees with the actions of the israeli government, they are automatically assumed to hate jews and want them all killed.


What an assinine thing to say.
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with the Israeli government and you know it, I disagree with the Israelis at times, this has everything to do with hating Jews and wanting them gone.
You need to read a few post's or just go on with your hate "Slick"




posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:09 PM
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People hide behind Saying they hate the Israeli Gov so they dont have to say they hate jews



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Actually, Harper did not win a majority of the public vote.

He won because Canadians split the vote between the NDP and the Liberals. Had Canadians chosen one alternative party, Harper would have lost.

Period.

He did not wint the majority of Canadians, it was less than half.

~Tenth

If there were two right wing parties he may have lost as well. He really had no right wing competition.
Pretty bad when a party can win with 41% of the popular vote.
How can this broken system be fixed?
A rematch (re-vote) between the two leading highest vote parties?

I'm with you Corruption Ex, Harper does not speak for me or you, he speaks for the zionists, he is a religio-washed puppet chosen for that purpose.
I get sick looking at him, I feel an anger every time I see his mug defacing property.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Battleline

Originally posted by optimus primal
reply to post by Battleline
 


I like how, anytime someone disagrees with the actions of the israeli government, they are automatically assumed to hate jews and want them all killed.


What an assinine thing to say.
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with the Israeli government and you know it, I disagree with the Israelis at times, this has everything to do with hating Jews and wanting them gone.
You need to read a few post's or just go on with your hate "Slick"


NO! You are mixing conditional with unconditional support. Do you know the difference between the two?

Conditional support means you must do a, b, c and then we support you. Unconditional support means netanyahu CAN NUKE palestine AND STILL america and canada WOULD SUPPORT israel. This is dangerous politics.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Syphon
 


As NewAgeman said, and surprisingly, as so little of you have the historical knowledge of, Zionism is Jewish nationalism.

What do you think is conveyed by the word "Israel"? Have you read the Hebrew Bible?


I agree that is all it is, BUT it has grave consequences when it comes to treating arab palestinians as third class citizens. For every 200 palestinians killed only 1 jew gets killed. Even one is too many, but we have to apply rational and porpotional thinking here.

In order for one religious ethnic group to have all the land, that means the other ethnic group needs to leave or at the very least be treated like dirt. This is why zionism is dangerous. Normally I would not mind so much, but over-sensationalism and political alliances with the super-powers can create a very fragile enviroment for the global community.

The problem arises when nationalism becomes nationalist particularism or exceptionalism to the exclusion of others or as a type of supremacy.



“Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ''Patriotism'' is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by ''patriotism'' I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare /never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.”

~ Erich Fromm

As Jesus, a Jewish Rabbi taught, our neighbor is any man, and our commitments and obligations to our neighbor are born of love within the context of the brotherhood of man because we all share the same ground of being and becoming.

There can be no enjoyment of one's own nationalist sentiments without such a love and compassion for "the other" because without it, as Fromm points out, such a nationalism amounts to only the most base kind of idolatry ie: it's not the least bit godly.

The question that I ask is - how did the Jews not learn something from the horrors of Nazi Germany such that they become the oppressor in some sort of sick and twisted historical irony?


edit on 5-12-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by knightrider078
 


Well, maybe this will make you happy... "I hate the Jews that advance the Zionist agenda that is the current Israeli Government?"

*kick Anti-Semite excuse in the garbage* Sorry you can only cry wolves few times before people realize that the complainers are the real wolves.
edit on 12/5/2012 by luciddream because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





Voting for traditional conservatism implies a strong military-industrial complex and support for israel.


It's too friggn bad that political illiterates - such as yourself - don't understand why people with a political education bother supporting Israel to begin with. Here's a real hint: It's not because "zionists control the west" - since that opposes the truism of politics that all nations pursue policies that defend their own national interests; it also isn't simply because we share a culture and similar political outlook as them.

In fact, the only reason anyone should support Israel is due to what would fill the vacuum if Israel were gone. Obama and the new American left have made the diabolical error of trusting Islamism. Now that Islamists control the parliaments in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt (especially), and soon to be Syria, we have a major crisis on our hands. A crisis that the complicit left seems partial to ignore...

Here's an example:


His successors, Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak, though ideologically different from Nasser, argued likewise that Egyptians were not culturally equipped to determine their future. “You don’t understand the Egyptian culture and what would happen if I step down now”, Mubarak told Western audiences at the height of the Egyptian revolution in February 2011…His right hand man, Vice President Omar Suleiman echoed the sentiment, stating that Egypt was not ready for democracy because democracy would unleash the forces of religious fundamentalism and bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power. – Fawaz A Gerges, Obama and the Middle East, pg 3, palgrave macmillan


Fawaz Gerges believes Islamism can be trusted with their new found political powers. Apparently, the 'background check' - the ideology of the partner in question, is equivalent to secularism. He assumes (obviously on very shaky ground) that Islamists will comply with the rules of the political game - that they will drop the goals mandated by the Shari'a. In short, he thinks Islamists can be just as pragmatic as secularists, even though secularists put the utilitarian value on a pedestal, while the Islamists do not.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by knightrider078
People hide behind Saying they hate the Israeli Gov so they dont have to say they hate jews

What an idiotic statement if I ever saw one!


PS, it's not my habit to criticise posts by calling the posters post idiotic, but....



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


I always escapes me why people need to apologize for other people? Harper is an idiot and what he does is generally not what we want. His opinions are his own and have nothing to do with me or anyone I know. I consider Harper and parliament in general terms nothing more than a bunch of treasonous bastards that need to be tried for thier crimes against the people of Canada and the rest of the world.

But I am sure as hell not going to apologize for these asshats.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





I agree that is all it is, BUT it has grave consequences when it comes to treating arab palestinians as third class citizens.


You're saying Arab Israelis are treated as "third class" citizens? Or do you mean strictly Arab Palestinieans in the west bank?




other ethnic group


Just to be clear, the term "ethnic" does not apply to Palestinians. Ethnically, they are Arabs. Arabs have 22 states already.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally

It's too friggn bad that political illiterates - such as yourself - don't understand why people with a political education bother supporting Israel to begin with. Here's a real hint: It's not because "zionists control the west" -


They contribute the most money to the american campaign system. They also invest heavily in wall street that likes to outsource and automate industry. Zionists are the primary force behind globalisation. All this is difficult to deny.


since that opposes the truism of politics that all nations pursue policies that defend their own national interests;


What political interest do we have in the middle east? It is because of religious intolerant people such as yourself with unrational paranoia of islam that we create so much hatred in the middle east and the rest of the world.


it also isn't simply because we share a culture and similar political outlook as them.


Last time i checked christianity and judaism were different religions? I have no bonds with judaism and in fact eventhough I was born a christian I have turned my back on the controlled christian fee-collecting CHURCH big time.

Try doing some alternative research. All mainstream religions are bs!


In fact, the only reason anyone should support Israel is due to what would fill the vacuum if Israel were gone. Obama and the new American left have made the diabolical error of trusting Islamism. Now that Islamists control the parliaments in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt (especially), and soon to be Syria, we have a major crisis on our hands. A crisis that the complicit left seems partial to ignore...


As long as we do not bother them, they should not bother us. America and europe has been exploiting their oil and other resources for many decades giving them 10% share of the profits. We have overturned many democratically elected governments in the past as well. We unconditionally support israel, which as i said before is a mistake.

Yet you still cannot see daylight? You are letting your jewish fanaticism get the best of you, just like people like you accuse hamas of being hateful. There are two sides to each coin.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





They contribute the most money to the american campaign system. They also invest heavily in wall street that likes to outsource and automate industry. Zionists are the primary force behind globalisation. All this is difficult to deny.


Zionists are the primary source? Are you serious? Capitalism is the primary source. And the vast majority of capitalists are NON-JEWS. Where does Zionism fit into this?




What political interest do we have in the middle east?


I explained it to you already. I quoted the so-called "regionalist" Fawaz Gerges to convey the other side of the equation. If you don't know why people have an interest in the middle east, it's about time you expand you're reading to something other than that which supports your current views.

Again, the middle east is a profoundly unusual place, very different from anywhere else. This is partly due to oil, but mainly due to Islam. You can call "religious intolerance" all you want. That's an obnoxiously ignorant claim, that amounts to a libel.




It is because of religious intolerant people such as yourself with unrational paranoia of islam that we create so much hatred in the middle east and the rest of the world.


Seriously, how much have you read on Islam? You have this make believe notion of a protestant "freedom from the yoke of law" concept of Islam. Do you get that Islam is a totally different phenomena? Creating a very different cultural paradigm?

Islam divorced from the state is A-OK in my eyes. Islam which uses the state, i.e Islamism, is obviously a threat. How it is you fail to recognize this, despite your obvious intelligence, is dumbfounding.



Last time i checked christianity and judaism were different religions?


Both Christianity and Judaism, first of all, have similar theological conceptions of deity. Second of all, it is this theological conception of deity which led to the enlightenment. It is because of their theological-metaphysical affinity, which saw God as compatible with reason (or logos) that rationalism, science and the perks of moder civilization were able to develop (and why they didn't develop in the Islamic world, despite the gains made in the 12th century).

But aside from that, Israel and America share a general SECULAR culture. Both Judaism and Christianity are truncated, recognized only as the predominant religion of the masses, but having little say with the values established by the constitution. Both Israeli and American democracy are rooted in 19th century liberal democratic notions of freedom, liberty and equality, as outlined by John Stewart Mill and John Locke, and moe recently, by Frederich Hayek.




As long as we do not bother them, they should not bother us.


Do you know what projection is? It's when you project your own beliefs, opinions, fears, anxieties, etc, onto others. Here, you are ignoring the stated beliefs of Islamists (like I said, their views are articulately stated in Islamist literature) and projecting your own, westernized concept of 'live and let live' on people who do not share that ideology.

edit on 5-12-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


Do you think you are some moral compass with enough intelligence to decipher the subtle nuances of international politics to be able to speak for your entire country? Let me answer that for you, no, you aren't You are one person, and the fact that you think you can speak for anyone other than yourself shows the high ground you already think you are on. ATS used to be able to discuss topics and events, instead it has just turned into some whiny snooze-fest. Seriously, the irrelevance of your opinion, coupled with the irrelevance of Canada in general in regards to the issue at hand is obvious.

Before you start handing out some self-righteous sissy apologies, you might want to understand that all you know about the events transpiring overseas is WHAT YOU ARE TOLD. You aren't there, you don't understand the plight of the Palestinian or Israeli people and you don't understand an issue that took place years before you were even born. I could go on for longer, but I feel like I've made my point.

As for the actual Israel/Palestine issue, I believe that any free nation without Shariah rule is a friend of ours. It is not our duty to defend them, nor is it our duty intervene, but we should respect them. For all the "wah wah they took their land" people, turn the tables a little bit and realize that the Hamas would love to see you, your family, America, and Israel in shambles dominated by their own culture. They would sell you out in a second, taking your land would just be the first step.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





I agree that is all it is, BUT it has grave consequences when it comes to treating arab palestinians as third class citizens.


You're saying Arab Israelis are treated as "third class" citizens? Or do you mean strictly Arab Palestinieans in the west bank?


Do you really think it is justified and fair to isolate all the arab israelis/palestinians behind walls in their own ghettos just because there were a few terror attacks per year? What has this approach solved? Maybe the terror attacks have gone down, but look at the hatred that has been building up as a result. It did not solve anything, unless the idea was to choke the arabs and make them eventually surrender.

It probably would have been much better to push for a secular israel and treat the bombers as terrorist criminals that were arrested and prosecuted for terrorism in court, or if necessary killed on an individual basis.





other ethnic group


Just to be clear, the term "ethnic" does not apply to Palestinians. Ethnically, they are Arabs. Arabs have 22 states already.


Yes, I guess israel could be non-secular and allow arabs to live in israel. MANY middle eastern countries are non-secular AND STILL respect all the ethnic minorities that live there. Even iran has many jews, but iran does not persecute jews, does it? Please answer me this question if you feel you have integrity!

There are many solutions to problems. We have to be pragmatic and good intentioned.
edit on 5/12/12 by EarthCitizen07 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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Guess, I'd better pitch in too. Everything is IMHO, of course. I only present have heard.

I voted for Stephen Harper. I don't agree with his supporting Israel, though with one of the world's famous three bankers being Jewish owned - I can see why our politicians support Canadian wallets with this show. Just because I voted someone into power in my Country, doesn't mean I don't have a right as a Citizen to voice dissent on their decisions (quite like nationals of any country). I can't say I represent all Canadians, though. I wish I could represent the majority, but don't wish to get elected - too many strings pulled by the networks that be.

If I were personally Palestinian, I would try every method in the book to leave the place. I heard a radio talk show with a Palestinian doctor by CBC, who was a witness to the injustice imposed on Palestine by the Jewish authorities in Israel. I accept the fact that I couldn't personally tell you what was going on in Palestine or Israel, since I am not a witness to these things. I feel bad for the Palestinians after hearing what this individual had to say.

I am not going to call Hamas a terrorist organization. I recall some time back some of those who led Hamas being interviewed by CBC - apparently they are an organization that lives on both sides of the borders of Palestine and Israel (not sure if things have changed since then). It was an organization formed by muslims that are professionals who were helping both Jewish people and the Muslims. In fact, this may be part of the reason that the Jewish authority is threatened by them. If Hamas should defend the Palestinians, it is possible that there are extenuating circumstances, and war is not a pretty picture.

I won't say that Hamas isn't a terrorist organization either - again war is not a pretty picture. From what I've seen of the map based changes, I don't think that the Palestinians deliberately changed the situation in Israel - but that is just an opinion of the possibility.

I have worked and gone to school with Jewish people, who were some of my better friends too. A lot of those who were my friends, I find, were not interested in going to Israel for the simple reason that they did not believe in what is going on there and the security is simply not there. They do not agree with a lot of the policies of the Jewish people who migrate there and believed that that was just asking for trouble.

That being said, they probably wouldn't publicly speak out against any of this stuff... understandably.

Another interview by CBC was done on Israel's side. It was the story of a woman (a Jewish Israeli), who was visited by a family who lived in the cordoned off regions. The woman's family hails from Europe, and her daughter had asked her what happened to the inhabitants of the house who lived where they now live, and she gave an answer "I don't know". One fine day the family that was moved out of the house, forcibly, a long time ago wanted to show their son the house that they lived in prior to living in the small apartment they now live in. They rang the doorbell, and the woman let them in and had them sit down for coffee. She expressed her sympathy for the family who was forced out - they were Muslims.

I have nothing more to write of my understanding. I don't have any links to the CBC programs that I heard. I never kept track of the dates and times of the broadcasts.

I don't support the Canadian position, because I truly don't believe that the position supported by the Canadian government is supported by actual evidence of sending independent observers to Israel. Who can be blamed for not wanting to send observers. It is dangerous. I recall Israel, some time back, apologizing for rockets that "accidentally" slammed a building containing observers.

As far as I am concerned, if these people want Israel back, let them have it - would have been my motto. If they cannot do what is right, they won't even if they manage to occupy the land, and the Jewish who settle there will end up paying the price - that is "if" they are unjust. Don't know as I am not a personal witness to such.
edit on 5-12-2012 by sensibleSenseless because: no links



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by RedShirt73
 


Well, people were divided between Liberals and NDP.

No way that scum could have won other way.

Since your not good with math, let me explain it to you.

-If the vote was split 50/50 between the NDP and Libs, the Torys would have gotten 0.

-If the vote was split evenly in three ways, the NDP would have garnered 33.3% of the vote, Grits 33.3 and Torys 33.3

However, as you and I both know, the Torys won a MAJORITY of the popular vote. Please tell me how vote splitting lead to the demise of either the Grits or the NDP? Please do.


Actually, I was a Mathematics minor in university along with a Computer Science Major (Should have done a Psychology minor though, lol). And please don't be smarmy, there's just no need for it. I mightn't be the smartest tool in the shed with regards to politics but I like to learn about it.
edit on 5-12-2012 by RedShirt73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





They contribute the most money to the american campaign system. They also invest heavily in wall street that likes to outsource and automate industry. Zionists are the primary force behind globalisation. All this is difficult to deny.


Zionists are the primary source? Are you serious? Capitalism is the primary source. And the vast majority of capitalists are NON-JEWS. Where does Zionism fit into this?


Jews are the most notorious capitalists. EVERYONE KNOWS THIS!





What political interest do we have in the middle east?


I explained it to you already. I quoted the so-called "regionalist" Fawaz Gerges to convey the other side of the equation. If you don't know why people have an interest in the middle east, it's about time you expand you're reading to something other than that which supports your current views.

Again, the middle east is a profoundly unusual place, very different from anywhere else. This is partly due to oil, but mainly due to Islam. You can call "religious intolerance" all you want. That's an obnoxiously ignorant claim, that amounts to a libel.


Just admit you want christians and jews to financially dominate an otherwise arab controlled and dominated middle east.




It is because of religious intolerant people such as yourself with unrational paranoia of islam that we create so much hatred in the middle east and the rest of the world.


Seriously, how much have you read on Islam? You have this make believe notion of a protestant "freedom from the yoke of law" concept of Islam. Do you get that Islam is a totally different phenomena? Creating a very different cultural paradigm?

Islam divorced from the state is A-OK in my eyes. Islam which uses the state, i.e Islamism, is obviously a threat. How it is you fail to recognize this, despite your obvious intelligence, is dumbfounding.


I prefer secularism but democracy implies allowing the majority to rule over the minority to various degrees.

If the majority want non-secular islam in THEIR NATION, then who are we to impose our will on them?

If you want a non-secular israel then you should be intellectually honest enough to admit other nations can choose their own government without outside obstructions.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 04:17 PM
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As for lasting peace in the middle east:

With the way that the modern world expands and consumes oil everywhere. Don't think it is possible.

The same corporations that require oil in the US are the same corporations that require it in Japan, China, Russia etc...

The countries are fighting for possession of the raw materials, because they want corporate support for their causes. Again, this has to do with money, resources and our wallets. No, they are not going to let the middle east have peace and it is possible that many countries sell arms to the rich middle eastern countries.

Don't see a war solving anything - just making the expansion of modern man a mess.

Israel may have been a security blanket for the US in the past in the middle east. But it isn't necessary any more... and that is what is being reflected to a certain extent.

The growing modernity about the entire world (globalisation), is a powder keg waiting for a trigger.
edit on 5-12-2012 by sensibleSenseless because: last line.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by knightrider078
 
What a bunch of crap! A person can hate the Israeli government without hating the Jewish people. That's just a typical Zionist cop-out response given when a debate isn't going their way. I can hate the American government without hating Americans. Same logic.

Get a grip man!



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally

Both Christianity and Judaism, first of all, have similar theological conceptions of deity. Second of all, it is this theological conception of deity which led to the enlightenment. It is because of their theological-metaphysical affinity, which saw God as compatible with reason (or logos) that rationalism, science and the perks of moder civilization were able to develop (and why they didn't develop in the Islamic world, despite the gains made in the 12th century).

But aside from that, Israel and America share a general SECULAR culture. Both Judaism and Christianity are truncated, recognized only as the predominant religion of the masses, but having little say with the values established by the constitution. Both Israeli and American democracy are rooted in 19th century liberal democratic notions of freedom, liberty and equality, as outlined by John Stewart Mill and John Locke, and moe recently, by Frederich Hayek.


Maybe you should read less and learn to think objectively more. Sometimes being too book smart is bad because you allow others to do the thinking for you. Being over-educated and indoctrination are related to each other.

For example I am very(or even extremely) selective in what I read. I have thrown away books one third of the way through because I could tell someone had an agenda that did not agree with my agenda. It is ok to be baised as long as the facts are not twisted out of context and/or mispresented.




As long as we do not bother them, they should not bother us.


Do you know what projection is? It's when you project your own beliefs, opinions, fears, anxieties, etc, onto others. Here, you are ignoring the stated beliefs of Islamists (like I said, their views are articulately stated in Islamist literature) and projecting your own, westernized concept of 'live and let live' on people who do not share that ideology.

edit on 5-12-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)


Islamists have no intention of world domination. Just comparing judeo-christian imperialism to islamic under-achievment should be enough to convince any one. Muslim countries have not tried to expand into europe, asia or the americas. Well with few exceptions such as the ottoman empire or moors, but that was many hundreds of years ago. Conversely we see judeo-christian imperialism the last 50 years being rampant.



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