Why is it impossible to get recent pictures from voyager 1 or 2 ?, page 3


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reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 11:23 AM by Batfink420
reply to post by zedVSzardoz



I have to agree! Even if it turned out to be a black picture with the faintest dot of any star I want to see it too. So it drains Voyager of some power. What's the harm in that? It's not going to last forever anyways and it's not going to discover much once it reaches Interstellar space. So one last pic looking back at Earth or our Sun from one of our greatest achievements seems reasonable to me.


reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 12:06 PM by Batfink420
reply to post by exponent



I agree with you to some extent but once it reaches Interstellar space I'm not sure it's going to be doing much science. It's not going to discover any stars or planets or anything extraterrestrial. Won't it just be getting bombarded by cosmic rays and nothing else? I'm asking because I really don't know myself. It will reach that point long before it runs out of juice. Who knows, maybe we will see some pics yet. Voyager 2 is to start shutting down in 2025 so we still have plenty of time. Even so taking pictures was and is one of it's objectives.


reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 12:35 PM by Soylent Green Is People
Originally posted by wrkn4livn
Originally posted by Philosophile
If Voyager I is at the edge of our solar system, and our solar system is roughly 100 light years across, then shouldn't it take around 100 years for us to receive any signal from Voyager 1 to pick up any picture transmission? I'm JUST asking because I don't know either that's just my idea.


I think it's the galaxy that's 100 light years across....


The Galaxy is 100,000 light years across, not 100.

100 light years is both small and big -- depending on the scales you are talking about. For example, within 100 light years of us are about 2,000 stars. That's a lot of stars. That sounds big in comparison to the Earth (and it is -- in comparison to Earth).

However, lets look at it from a galactic perspective. We have been sending radio signals into space for about 100 years now with our early radio (and later TV) broadcasts. That means those radio waves have traveled a radius of 100 light years -- that's a bubble or sphere of radio waves that is 200 light years in diameter.

That sounds big, but take a look at that 200 light-year sphere relative to the galaxy in the artist's illustration in this article linked below (that tiny blue dot is the 200 light year sphere):

The Tiny Humanity Bubble

Remember -- that little blue dot in that article is NOT our solar system -- that dot much bigger than our solar system. That dot is only how far our earliest radio broadcasts have gone (at the speed of light) in 100 years. Our solar system is pretty damn insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It would take Voyager 1.75 MILLION years to go as far as those radio broadcasts have gone so far.

And this is only at the scale of our galaxy...there are hundreds of Billions of other galaxies in the universe -- making our solar system even far, far, far, far, far less significant to the universe than the tiniest dust speck is to us. We are smaller than miniscule.


edit on 12/4/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 12:47 PM by drakus
Originally posted by Batfink420
reply to
post by exponent



I agree with you to some extent but once it reaches Interstellar space I'm not sure it's going to be doing much science. It's not going to discover any stars or planets or anything extraterrestrial. Won't it just be getting bombarded by cosmic rays and nothing else? I'm asking because I really don't know myself. It will reach that point long before it runs out of juice. Who knows, maybe we will see some pics yet. Voyager 2 is to start shutting down in 2025 so we still have plenty of time. Even so taking pictures was and is one of it's objectives.

Hi there,
There's one important point here that may help understand the subject better.
The Voy probes have several sensors, one of which is tuned for visible-spectrum electromagnetic radiation.
But in the current (and last) phase of it's mission the most important data is gathered with OTHER sensors.
There's not much we could learn from a photo taken today by voyager, but we are learning A LOT thanks to those other sensors. For example we very recently discovered that there is a layer of "high-speed" transition between the solar system's heliosphere and the interstellar medium (the galactic atmosphere). And we were completely ignorant about this new structure until today.
On the other hand, using the camera would consume quite an amount of energy for little or no gain.

I completely understand your desire to actually SEE where voyager is, believe me I share that desire, but taking the former paragraph into account it's quite understandable why it wouldn't be convenient.

Cheers.
edit on 4/12/2012 by drakus because: added source



reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 12:49 PM by samkent
reply to post by Batfink420




I just read that Voyager is suppose to begin to power down in 2020. Surely it can spare enough power for a few pictures. It is one of it's purposes after all.

I don't think it's the power that is an issue. It uses a radioactive generator to provide power. The isotope used degrades slowly over time not based on power used. They don't expect the generator to provide enough power to operate the systems come 2020. They have been shutting down the biggest power hogs over the years. I think they had camera heaters running until several years ago.
The bigger problem I see is batteries and propellant.
Given the generators current output they may actually need the batteries to supplement the power needed to run the camera for several hours to get a time lapse. If the camera has the sensitivity needed to show the Earth a a single dot.
More importantly is the propellant needed to stabilize the camera for several hours for one lousy picture that will not show any detail of anything.
The radio antenna can be allowed to drift for awhile before propellant is used to bring it back on Earth. Not so for cameras.
Propellant is a fixed commodity. Once it's gone.....

Whats to come as is? Which way do the interstellar currents flow? Are there eddies of higher density? How fast are they?
What would a picture show us? One pixel for Earth and maybe 100 for the Sun. What's the point?


reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 01:24 PM by Soylent Green Is People
Originally posted by RoScoLaz
what exactly is voyager 'conserving power' for? is there a yet to be accomplished task ahead?

They still have important instruments that are operating, and they are still making big discoveries. Just yesterday (December 3), the Voyager team announced a new and unexpected discovery Voyager 1 made about the solar system out there:

Voyager 1 Spacecraft Enters New Realm at Solar System's Edge

It could be said that a yet-to-be-unaccomplished task is having the Voyager spacecraft pass outside the Heliosphere of the solar system (which is ONE definition -- but not the only definition -- of the edge of the solar system). There is a lot that science wants to know about the conditions out there, and Voyager still has instruments that can tell them that.


EDIT TO ADD:

Here is a web page on Voyagers' extended mission -- the "Interstellar Mission":

Voyager -- The Interstellar Mission

excerpt:
The mission objective of the Voyager Interstellar Mission (VIM) is to extend the NASA exploration of the solar system beyond the neighborhood of the outer planets to the outer limits of the Sun's sphere of influence, and possibly beyond. This extended mission is continuing to characterize the outer solar system environment and search for the heliopause boundary, the outer limits of the Sun's magnetic field and outward flow of the solar wind. Penetration of the heliopause boundary between the solar wind and the interstellar medium will allow measurements to be made of the interstellar fields, particles and waves unaffected by the solar wind.


edit on 12/4/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 01:55 PM by samkent
Voyage had 470 watts at 30 volts at launch. Now it's down to 267 watts (Oct 2011).
The radio transmitter alone draws 23 watts. I can't find how much the computer(s) draws.

Just because they have 267wts doesn't mean you can use all of it. You must keep a margin in case one device develops a problem and draws more than its design. Example a motor when a gear sticks, can draw many times the origional plan.
If you max the load to the power available and one item fails and puts an extreme load on the power buss you could crash the computer.
Yes the computer will attempt to reboot but maybe they cannot change the boot ROM. Many of those loads may be turned ON by default. So the boot process will get to a point where the loads exceeds the generators output (again) and crash the computer. That means forever rebooting and loss of Voyager.

Here are a few things turned off and the year.


IRIS Flash-off Heater OFF (+31.8 W) - 1990
WA Camera OFF (+16.8 W) - 1990
NA Camera OFF (+18.0 W) 1990
PPS Supplemental Heater OFF (+2.8 W) - 1995
NA Optics Heater OFF (+2.6 W) - 1995
IRIS Standby A Supply OFF (+7.2 W) - 1995
WA Vidicon Heater OFF (+5.5 W) - 1998
NA Vidicon Heater OFF (+5.5 W) - 1998
IRIS Science Instrument OFF (+6.6 W) - 1998
WA Electronics Replacement Heater OFF (+10.5 W) - 2002
Azimuth Actuator Supplemental Heater OFF (+3.5 W) - 2003
Azimuth Coil Heater OFF (+4.4 W) - 2003
Scan Platform Slewing Power OFF (+2.4 W) - 2003
NA Electronics Replacement Heater OFF (+10.5 W) - 2005
Pyro Instrumentation Power OFF (+2.4 W) - 2007
PLS Science Instrument OFF (+4.2 W) - 2007
PLS Replacement Heater OFF (+4.3 W) - 2007
PRA Science Instrument OFF (+6.6W) -2008
IRIS Replacement Heater OFF (+7.8 W) - 2011

Notice the word 'vidicon', that's the camera(s).
edit on 4-12-2012 by samkent because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 02:21 PM by samkent
reply to post by zedVSzardoz




Why don't we have live feeds from the cameras on them and our explorer probes?

Several reasons.
1. They are not video cameras.
2. They are not color cameras. They use several shots with filters and stitch them together to give us a realistic color picture.
3. Transmission is slow. Remember dial up internet with high res pictures? It's close to that.


reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 03:12 PM by Soylent Green Is People
Originally posted by samkent
reply to
post by zedVSzardoz




Why don't we have live feeds from the cameras on them and our explorer probes?

Several reasons.
1. They are not video cameras.
2. They are not color cameras. They use several shots with filters and stitch them together to give us a realistic color picture.
3. Transmission is slow. Remember dial up internet with high res pictures? It's close to that.


Concerning point 2:
The "Mastcam" has an RGB Bayer filter (similar in concept to the filter on a consumer camera), so the raw images from Mastcam are in "color" (or at least the same kind of color as a consumer camera -- which isn't really "true color" either, but that's a different story altogether):
Both FFL Mastcams are color imagers. Integrated over each detector is an RGB Bayer pattern filter (GR/BG unit cell). A broadband (IR cutoff) filter through which RGB imaging will occur is included in one of the 8 filter positions within each camera's filter wheel.
Source

As for your other two points, you are correct. The field of view for the Mastcam is a narrow 15° ( at 34mm fvocal length). There is a 100 mm focal length Mastcam, and that filed of view is even at a more narrow angle -- just 5°. So yeah -- a single image is such a narrow field of view that it lacks much context. The images need to be stitched together to get a real contextual feel of what you are looking at.

And, yes -- the download time for each image can sometimes be several minutes to sometimes even an hour, depending on the amount of other data being transmitted back to Earth (via a relatively narrow bandwidth signal).


edit on 12/4/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 07:13 PM by shadowland8
reply to post by Philosophile



Voyager 1 is about 100 AU from Earth I believe. An AU is the distance between the Earth and the Sun. Far from a light year, we're talking light minutes.
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