Conspiracies, Obama, Much of ATS, Found In Three Words. Come On, Help Me Explore This.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Dear ProfEmeritus,

Your kindness is as overwhelming as it is undeserved. You have honored me beyond anything that I could have hoped for. Thank you. There are only a few people here whose opinions really matter to me, yours is one of them.

Allow me to try a little different approach. I have a few thoughts which I haven't been able to combine into anything coherent. Perhaps you, or another poster cam make sense out of them.

1.) As Mahluia mentioned above, it's possible we're on a sinking ship, and the best we can do is play a few hands of bridge until the waters close over us. More often than I'd like, I think she may be right. That's not intellectually satisfying, though. We've done everything possible, now it's time to wait for death? That's a difficult idea to accept.

2.) Is it possible to change things on ATS? Can it be done by coordinated example by posters? Are the Mods and other management necessary to any plan to introduce change? Do the Mods want to change things?

3.) If attaining civility on ATS is difficult, what plan could possibly save the country? Are we forced to run from one website to another, one country to another, hoping to find refuge? Forgive the melodrama, I am dark today, but is the whole world sinking?

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. I wish all ATSers could read them.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
Israel - Islam? Israel is as fearful as a country can be, they certainly don't envy the Muslim world, but there is the hate that comes from constant threats.
9/11? A combination of a hatred for Bush, a hatred for the Israelis, even a hatred for America.

Charles, you do write Eloquently, but that doesnt make your Opinions your pushing Facts.

You slide in the Hatred towards Israel as something the Muslims did... Wrong there Bucko, its all on Israel.

As for the 911 line of Bull you wrote, again... wrong.

ATruther such as myself will continue to Argue because of a Love for the US, you can bend over and Believe Physics took the day off on 911, I am not that Naive.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Charles, you do write Eloquently, but that doesnt make your Opinions your pushing Facts.

You slide in the Hatred towards Israel as something the Muslims did... Wrong there Bucko, its all on Israel.

As for the 911 line of Bull you wrote, again... wrong.

ATruther such as myself will continue to Argue because of a Love for the US, you can bend over and Believe Physics took the day off on 911, I am not that Naive.

I think this post is a great example of what we're seeing here. I believe that we've become very passionate over the past decade, especially since the historic 9/11.

Problem is that the passion is very sided in one's one views, usually to one extreme or the other. So many people have already made up their minds and they spend all their energy defending their position. When we spend all of our energy defending ourselves (our beliefs, our truths') then we have no energy left over to focus in fixing things or in building better relationships and communications.

I think it is sad that we have a nation (our nation, the U.S. - can't comment on the others) with at least two generations of education through television. I think the U.S. is the leader in this downfall, but we'll begin seeing it in other developed countries very soon.

I've recently taken advantage of today's political and economic climate to return to school. What I mean by "taken advantage" is not in monetary value (I get NO government assistance for school), but in another valuable way. My reason for returning was to work on a Master's degree in Public Administration. Why? Well, I am so disappointed in today's politics that I've taken it upon myself to learn what I can to run for local office.

So, I used my "wanting to go into politics" as an excuse, but I have to admit that I'm receiving so much more. I'm learning more now than I ever did in all my years of school. One thing that is glaringly obvious to me is my realization that the more educated I am, the more I realize just how 'un'educated I am.

I can also tell those that are not educated, unfortunately. They are the ones who have made up their minds via televised resources and other social media.

reply to post by Tw0Sides

Dear Tw0Sides,

Thanks for stopping by for a visit. Maybe my writing is eloquent, I thank you for the compliment, but I'd rather that it be clear. I guess I've failed at that in this case.

In this thread, it doesn't matter to me what the facts are in any particular situation. It could have been alien lasers that took out the towers, and it wouldn't have changed what I was trying to explore.

Look, Tw0Sides, you know what kind of arguments we have here. Heck, you're in the middle of a bunch of them. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) What I'm trying to explore is what is the cause of the rage. Not the heated debate sort of stuff, but the "Shut your brain off and start swinging" kind of anger.

If you want to look at Muslims for example, maybe their rage comes from fear of Israel's nuclear weapons, backed by the US. Maybe the fear is that Islam will be under attack by Western habits and immoral behavior. Maybe there's hatred because Israelis (or Zionists, I don't keep up with this stuff) are really devils and devils should be hated.

Really, I'm not trying to say whether one conspiracy or another is right. I don't care here. Change it around however you'd wish.

Tw0Sides, you have a unique perspective on things, would you care to help me out with this idea that's being explored in this thread?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Hello again Charles, I enjoy your use of salutation, by the way. As far as what to do with all of this negativity, as others in the thread have pointed out, the scope is broad, so what do I want to address?

My choice is this forum, it's easiest for me to consider. The option that you offered that I like the most is to ignore those who just can't seem to be civil. It's difficult to do. I skim posts before actually reading them, for instance. I think about the title of a thread before I impulsively start reading it.

I just don't see changing people's behavior by example here. It's been my experience that change is one of the most difficult things to accept into one's life, even if the change is wanted.

Another thing I like that you mentioned is to question myself before posting something, to see what my motive is in posting, and to hopefully keep from making an a** of myself.

As I wrote before, it's my belief that our "society" has been purposefully shaped into what it is today. I hope I'm wrong, because I don't think I'll like the motive behind this manipulation. I really hope I'm wrong, and that we're in the shape we're in through a confluence of coincidence and error, and not as the result of nefarious collaboration.

reply to post by charles1952

I thought hatred, envy, and fear explained a lot of what was going on in ATS and in society in general.

You forget Uncertainty

It can lead to fear - but it's not exactly the same thing

I also find it interesting that you include Envy - Envy seems to be a kind of antidote explanation for uncertainty

:-)

Don't you think?

I then tried to give some examples of how my theory might work out. I'm hoping ATSers can improve my theory by adding different drives, or examples.

Envy?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It's about freedom - and equality - for everyone

Envy - not so much

Some of us get a little pissy when the finger pointing is all in one general direction

Nice thread you got here Charles

:-)

Oh - and: One World - One Love

Peace

reply to post by charles1952


Well, a long time ago I resolved this issue for the most part when I decided most everything we humans say and do is about survival of the specific community.

Plus people don't like to be wrong, it scares them.

Then there is the control drama.

Watching how posters interact with one-another solidified this insight for me anyway.

For instance, Jane thinks she needs to protect a certain politician so she shames Dick the attacker of said politicians, into silence.

Jane tries the same thing with me and I have no shame, lol

It depends on your emotional state,

Now the internet leaves us all feeling a little detached from reality making some of us more brave with our words and opinions.

deoxy.org...
Intimidators steal energy from others by threat.
Interrogators steal it by judging and questioning.
Aloof people attract attention (and energy) to themselves by playing coy.
Poor me's make us feel guilty and responsible for them.

I thought there was a case to be made for hatred, because that seemed to be a strong basis for the Muslim approach to Israel, or for tearing down Buddhist shrines and statues. Or even for some of the comments made about, Romney, Palin, Beck, FOX news, etc.

Don't underestimate the power of propaganda Jane and fifty others call out FOX as unreliable, Dick refrains as to not look stupid, hence fear rears its ugly head, Dick does not want to look stupid.

Conspiracy theorist belong to an elite club, thinking ourselves more knowledgeable.

Same brain center as religious zest.

Say something often enough people start to believe it,example, the Palin is stupid meme.

Envy stuck it's nose up with all of the "Eat the Rich," "Out of touch 1%ers," and "Make them pay their fair share."
Not to mention, people getting robbed for their tennis shoes.

tribe, tribe, tribal, we need to survive and you need to fork it over.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Some of us get a little pissy when the finger pointing is all in one general direction

There it is, you feel threatened.

reply to post by Tw0Sides

You slide in the Hatred towards Israel as something the Muslims did... Wrong there Bucko, its all on Israel.

Essentially you have closed you mind to anyone's opinion other than your own.

There are three sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth.

A comment like it is all Israels fault makes me,
Crazy,

So I become aloof knowing you wont budge on your stance, I have no desire try and reason with someone so unreasonable.

If attaining civility on ATS is difficult, what plan could possibly save the country? Are we forced to run from one website to another, one country to another, hoping to find refuge? Forgive the melodrama, I am dark today, but is the whole world sinking?

reply to post by charles1952

First of all, your kinds words are appreciated. I believe that people such as yourself are modern day Diogenes, searching for the truth and for answers. I humbly put myself and many of my friends on ATS in this category. That is not a statement meant as braggadocio, but rather a mere statement of purpose. As I read your posts, and several others on this thread, a thought came to mind.
I use Facebook to communicate with extended family and several good friends I have acquired over the years. One of the wisest statements I have encountered is the old adage concerning choosing your friends but not your relatives. Since my relatives now span 4 generations, it includes some young people, who have grown up in a different environment than my wife and I have. As such, their views on morality, politics, and social interaction differ greatly from ours. Anyway, to avoid unwanted conflict, I have created several different groups on Facebook, including a group of friends(and some relatives) that share our views, mores and attitudes towards sensitive issues.
To the point, it struck me that one way to have a productive debate on ATS would be to allow members to create groups of people, in our case, not necessarily people that only share our views, but people that are thoughtful, honest about their opinions, but in a constructive way, and have shown a consistent pattern of honest, thoughtful and respectful debate. I know in the past, ATS had the famous ignore button, but that was discontinued, and furthermore, was an "exclude" mechanism, rather than an 'include" mechanism. Whether such a mechanism is economically and technically feasible on ATS is of course a question that only the ATS owners can address, but it certainly would help us in our quest for honest discourse.
Just a thought from an old prof, for whatever it is worth

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I really appreciate your post, the one including Lady Liberty. It gave me one of those Doh! moments. Instead of trying to point out the speck in another's eye, maybe I should work on the plank in my own.

Not everyone has a background similar to mine, it's too easy to judge people from my own perspective and expect them to behave as I would. I still believe that there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed -- name calling, personal attacks, etc. If those simple boundaries can't be kept, what can be kept? I choose to skim and then skip posts that start to turn that bend. Too bad it also conditions me to probably not read anything else posted by that person afterward, it just saves me time; maybe one day I'll miss out on the answer to the meaning of life that way. That sounds about par for my course.

think most conspiracies, President Obama, and much if not most of ATS posts and threads come from three words: HATE, ENVY, and FEAR.

I agree, most of the conspiracies theories about Obama come from Hate, Envy, and Fear.

I know that isn't what you originally meant, but I think it is exactly correct.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Some of us get a little pissy when the finger pointing is all in one general direction

There it is, you feel threatened.

Threatened by what Stormdancer?

:-)

reply to post by louczar

I really appreciate your post, the one including Lady Liberty. It gave me one of those Doh! moments. Instead of trying to point out the speck in another's eye, maybe I should work on the plank in my own.

Well, it does make a point - and a sincere one at that

But it's also a little over the top :-)

...it's too easy to judge people from my own perspective and expect them to behave as I would. I still believe that there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed -- name calling, personal attacks, etc. If those simple boundaries can't be kept, what can be kept?...

We all judge from our own perspective - it's inevitable

You seem like a pretty reasonable sort yourself louczar :-)

Funny thing is - if you go to the comments section of any major news site out there - it all breaks down the same way as it does here. So - I guess we are what we are then :-)

I sometimes wish we could get along better here. I'm changing it to sometimes because I realized we are all here arguing for sport - and getting along is not always as interesting

I could also wish people - in general - had more of a sense of humor...but it doesn't always translate in writing does it?

Though we don't always agree, Charles is a real gentleman, and he makes some very good points here. Of course, those points are delivered from his own special angle...

I wonder if he did that on purpose?

:-)

and so it goes louczar - so it goes...

To all,

I shouldn't have stayed away so long. Reading what you've done here is inspiring. I'm grateful you found your way to this thread and participated. I'm learning from you. One thing I've learned is:

I SCREWED UP, I'M SORRY.

Somehow I chose terrible examples for my opening post. Several have pointed out that I created an impression of bias in my choices, That was unintentional. I should have included more. This was not meant to be looking at conservative-liberal, gay-straight, Jew-Muslim, Obama-Romney, or any other specific division. People on both sides of each argument can become infected with the mental "disease" which I originally thought could be traced to fear, hate, or envy.

Feel free to take whichever side you happen to be on and take it that I meant your opponents were sufferring from that mental condition. I certainly didn't mean to be pointing fingers all in one direction. They point all ways.

Spiramirablis, "uncertainty" is a good idea, but I need a little more understanding. That, in itself, doesn't seem to be a strong enough emotion to cause some of the craziness we see, but I might be missing it.

Stormdancer777, I agree that "survival" is strong enough to twist people around in their skulls. If you think it is different enough from fear, let's consider it. It seemed pretty similar to me though.

What do you all think of adding the word "Pride" to the list? It is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, and might cover people who will fight to avoid embarrassment.

ProfEmeritus, I can't type because I'm blushing, thanks. But to your idea. The Big Bosses did set up a political forum which required every poster to publicly agree to a code of conduct which they would not violate upon pain of pain. Might that be what you're thinking of?

With respect,
Charles1952

Pride and love, ever human emotion can be selfish and ever human emotion is for survival.
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Once we understand this we might get somewhere.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Yes, the Four Fs, something I have to grudgingly acknowledge and accept because it only makes sense and is empirical. Naturalism, Behaviorism, isms of that sort are always a buzz-kill for me. Sort of like lying in bed, enjoying a good dream when someone dumps a bucket of ice cold water on your head.

Reading threads on this site coincides with my desire for there be something beyond what we can quantify, something in those spaces between. I want the truth to be that we are more than the sum of our parts, that there really is a ghost in the machine. Besides, what does make more sense? Believing in only what my feeble senses can detect and what my flawed brain can process? Or believing that reality and our experience of it is something too grand and mysterious to be dissected, denuded, and distilled into a digest of hypotheses, axioms, and proofs?

For me, I still enjoy believing in Santa, or at least the idea and feeling of love behind it. I find comfort in my beliefs that go beyond proof.

"The heart has its reasons, which reason does not know. We feel it in a thousand things. It is the heart which experiences God, and not the reason. This, then, is faith: God felt by the heart, not by the reason." ~Pascal

Please don't confuse my expression here with bible thumping or an attempt at internets missionary work

reply to post by charles1952


I would like to postulate two theories of human nature. These two core issues provide us with our personal sense of substance. They drive how we feel about ourselves.

#1. We long for purpose and impact. My life has meaning because I have purpose. My life has value because I have impact. My life matters. I am a hard worker!

#2. We long for relationship. We want to be in community. We want to feel part of a larger group. We want to belong. I am an American!

I believe all the other emotional behavior and thinking revolves around our sense of those longings being met or lacking. The more we feel threatened in obtaining or maintaining those longings the more intense our emotional responses.

These longings even drive our use of medications. If I am a salesperson and I am not meeting my quota I might be tempted to use coc aine to give myself an edge over my competition. If I am a kid in the hood I might use drugs and join a gang for protection and for a sense of belonging. If I am a mother who has an angry distant daughter I might utilize a pain killer to dull the pain of that broken relationship.

These longings are powerful! If we perceive others blocking or threatening us from obtaining their satisfaction we will fight as if our life depended on it, because in our thinking and in relationship to these longings it does.

For an expanded purview of this thinking I suggest books by Dr. Larry Crabb or Dr. Dan Allender.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Pride and love, ever human emotion can be selfish and ever human emotion is for survival.
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Once we understand this we might get somewhere.

edit on 093131p://bWednesday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

Every human emotion is for survival - so true

But saying it comes down to love and hate is a little too easy I think - and it's one reason our exchanges become so intense

Sometimes people mistake disagreement and criticism for hate - when it's actually anything but

What's most interesting to me Stormdancer is how it takes every single emotion - from each of us and all of us together, constantly bouncing back and forth and off each other - to propel mankind forward into a better future and a better overall mankind

It's also why disagreeing with each other is necessary

As far as I'm concerned - ATS is a more useful place than we give it credit for sometimes

It's unique in many ways - a never ending town-hall meeting

With Reptilians

:-)