Conspiracies, Obama, Much of ATS, Found In Three Words. Come On, Help Me Explore This.

Ideas are strange things which come in many varieties. There's the "It made sense after 6 beers" idea, which is always embarrassing if you can only remember it.

Then there's the "I've finally found the secret to perpetual motion" idea. That dissolves after a few night's sleep, some reading on the subject, or a little experimentation.

Occassionaly, we get the blindingly brilliant idea which changes the way we think or produces a fantastic new product.

I've just had a thought of the fourth kind, "half-baked," but maybe it can be nursed to something worthwhile.

That's what I want you ATSers to do. I've taken a couple of steps down an interesting path, but I need some travelling companions to make this serious.

So, come along, and I'll give you your briefing. I assume you're familiar with most ot the fora on this site. You know how the emotions can rise when people talk about religion, politics, Israel, bankers, the police, and race, just to start.

Then there are the conspiracy fora. It was getting so crazy that the big bosses had to shut down 9/11 threads for a while, Nibiru is big, you can throw in Nazis, UFOs, and Illuminati. In fact, dozens of conspiracies.

Each of these are worth looking into if you're curious, just like any academic subject. BUT, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE DO.

The name calling, anger, unwillingness to look at information unless it fits pre-approved opinions. There is rage here, something far beyond simple scientific curiosity.

And looking at the rage gave me my half-baked idea. I think most conspiracies, President Obama, and much if not most of ATS posts and threads come from three words: HATE, ENVY, and FEAR. These are the elements which make an otherwise reasonable discussion into a jungle fight.

Perhaps some examples, I don't know if I'm allowed to link to individual posts, so I'll just describe them.

What drives Obama? Hate for neo-colonialism, and unequal wealth distribution, envy of other celebrities, fear of being questioned or being held responsible.

Obama supporters? Envy of the things other's have, and satisfaction of those desires by government gift, Fear that they might lose some benefit or right, hatred of the wealthy.

Gays-Straights? Gays envy Straights, not just for marriage, but because society is comfortable with Straight relationships, and not theirs. Straights are fearful of the results of the gay "movement." As a result, there is some hate on both sides.

Israel - Islam? Israel is as fearful as a country can be, they certainly don't envy the Muslim world, but there is the hate that comes from constant threats. Muslims are afraid of the contanimation of their religion, and that if somebody on either side makes a mistake, they will be suddenly short an awful lot of Muslims. Because Israel is threatening the pillars of Islamic society, Israel has become a supernatural evil, the devil incarnate which must be destroyed.

9/11? A combination of a hatred for Bush, a hatred for the Israelis, even a hatred for America.

Police brutality? Fear of the police, hatred of the police, and a little buried envy of their powers.

The Illuminati? Sure there's a little fear of what they might be proposing, but many ATSers want a one world government, and, honestly, how many of you would join up if offered the chance. Think of the power and protection you'd get.

Well, that should be enough to get things started. Do we need an additional word or two? For a while, I thought Ignorance would be a good addition, but that's not enough by itself to raise things to the level of fury I've been seeing.

Help me out. Polish up this idea, or show it's complete nonsense. I think I've got the start of something, but need your help.

With respect,
Charles1952

I don't get it, but I'm half baked

reply to post by Putyournamehere

Dear Putyournamehere,

Sorry, that's apparently what happens when I try to write. Will you take a summary?

Many things discussed here go to name-calling, ignoring the other side's information, general hostility. How come?

It seemed to me that there are powerful emotions in play that are shutting off people's brains in many circumstances. There's not so much trying to find answers as trying to bully opponents. I don't think that would happen if people were trying to replace their ignorance with knowledge and understanding.

I wondered what those emotions were, and how much they could explain. I thought hatred, envy, and fear explained a lot of what was going on in ATS and in society in general.

I then tried to give some examples of how my theory might work out. I'm hoping ATSers can improve my theory by adding different drives, or examples.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

but many ATSers want a one world government

Speak for yourself buddy, I'm not that baked.

This is very interesting though I'm sort of confused about what you're trying to point out. Sometimes while reading I consume the words too fast to comprehend completely. But I'll take a shot at it.
From my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're asking why fear, hate, jealousy, and etc, drive people in there decisions and arguments? Now still assuming my understanding is correct, I believe the root of this is the primitive competitiveness of humans. The need to always be right. For example how some people will stand their ground in defense of their opinions, past the point of fact, logic, and possibly common sense.
That's just my two cents though. I might look deeper into this and post a more fully structured thought.
Holidakd

I agree that there is no shortage of anger, hatred and fear behind many threads here on ATS. But you left out curiosity, frustration, and disappointment. I think most of my threads come from the latter 3, though I have no lack of anger, fury, and discontent.

It seems to me that trying to tie everything up in a neat little bow with only a few descriptive words is probably not going to work out though. While you might be on the right track, you are being too vague and limiting with your criteria.

Personally, I don't think it's possible to try and nail down all the motivations behind all the threads here in one theory and keep it anywhere near coherent.

reply to post by Holidakd

Dear Holidakd,

Thank you very much, you're helping a lot in putting some form in this theory, I'm grateful.

Please let me see if I can clear it up a little. I was looking at contentious issues, those where people went temporarily "insane." You can see a lot of it here, and in public discourse. I then wondered, if excess emotion was causing this hostility, what emotions might they be.

I'm sure there a lot of them but could they be simplified? I called greed a part of envy. I threw out lust and gluttony, because they didn't seem to be players in a lot of our discussions. After that, I decided to see how few emotions could be identified that caused more of that "hostility" than one might have expected. I ended up with those three, Hatred, Envy, and Fear. Those seemed to me to be the Big Three, and I wanted to float the idea out for further refinement. Thanks for your help.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by watchitburn

Dear watchitburn,

Thank you, you've got a good point.

There are some threads, and discussions, where people are looking for information. Military Projects and Weaponry are two that come to mind. For me that fits into the category of research and collaboration. I left that out because if the world was interested in learning, I wouldn't have started this.

Personally, I don't think it's possible to try and nail down all the motivations behind all the threads here in one theory and keep it anywhere near coherent.

I completely agree, that would be a fool's errand (or someone with a large government grant). What I'm trying to do, I think, is find out why so many of our communications here and in the world are simply bombs thrown at each other.

Perhaps you're suggesting adding frustration to the list? Maybe, but I wonder if severe frustration becomes hatred, one of the preliminary feeders, so to speak.

It seems to me that trying to tie everything up in a neat little bow with only a few descriptive words is probably not going to work out though. While you might be on the right track, you are being too vague and limiting with your criteria.

Thank you. I was hoping for people like you to show me how to complete the baking of this idea.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I 1/2 baked think that many miss the point by 18 inches...

Is the heart rational? I know mine ain't.

reply to post by loveguy

Dear loveguy,

I know when I've met my master. You've put a brilliant point into just a few words. The problem is, I can't figure out what the point is. Could you help me out?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by loveguy

 

Dear loveguy,

I know when I've met my master. You've put a brilliant point into just a few words. The problem is, I can't figure out what the point is. Could you help me out?

With respect,
Charles1952

Hi,
I'm nobody's master, just my own body, but thanks!

Well, for me-our seven senses are the normal five plus reasoning and understanding.
We want to understand the reason why we're here, but we get all caught-up doing daily schtuff that keeps us from accomplishing what we all first set-out to do here.

Which we all aren't singing it in a big love circle yet for whatever individual reason.
I just try to make it seem fun anyway.

reply to post by charles1952


I think you can whittle it down to simply fear.

Fear of losing entitlements can be expressed as anger.
Fear of losing rights can be expressed as anger.
Fear of responsibility can be expressed as envy.
Fear of one's own capabilities could also be expressed as envy.

About the only thing I hate are olives. (I can't stand them)

I'm envious of many things, but that comes from my own self-criticism of "if I am capable of the same achievement".

Anger has such a small "half-life" in my opinion. It requires constant fueling, and is, in the end, self-defeating.

Just my two cents, hope I caught the jist right on this thread.

reply to post by beezzer

Dear beezzer,

Yes, you've got it. Thank you very much. Now while you're celebrating, keep your guard up for foxes, they're sneaky.

I have to admit to having a bit of a tough time reaching your level of minimalist perfection.

I thought there was a case to be made for hatred, because that seemed to be a strong basis for the Muslim approach to Israel, or for tearing down Buddhist shrines and statues. Or even for some of the comments made about, Romney, Palin, Beck, FOX news, etc.

Envy stuck it's nose up with all of the "Eat the Rich," "Out of touch 1%ers," and "Make them pay their fair share."
Not to mention, people getting robbed for their tennis shoes.

Anger has such a small "half-life" in my opinion. It requires constant fueling, and is, in the end, self-defeating.

I certainly agree with you here. I thought "hatred" would be a longer lasting, more maevolent, emotion, so I slipped that in.

You've given me a lot to think about, but I expect no less from you. Thanks again.

Oh, the title of one of the Pope's books is Be Not Afraid.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Things have changed a lot for me from the time that I grew up. There are not many clear roles for people to fill anymore, roles by which to be defined - in part, not in the whole - and boundaries have become vague and blurred. We no longer have a strong sense of community, and we have no real idea of how to measure individual worth. Measuring anyone implies judgement, and judging any one or anything is wrong, right?

We live in a society now where anything goes, and a lot sure has went. Courtesy is no longer common. Entitlement trumps achievement.

For a lot of people, uncertainty is is a major driving force in their lives. A lot of people live hand to mouth, add uncertainty into that mix and there will be a lot of anger and fear. Things that I grew up with, like patriotism and religion, are now viewed as being perverse and atavistic. These things gave me structure, and also something against which to rebel, and then return to later on. Now against what do you rebel, when you have no foundation or establishment with which to begin???

There are a lot of forces at play in this miasma of uncertainty, alienation, division, anger and fear. I feel sure that we have been socially engineered to be what we are now, as a society, if you really want to call us that. I take a look around, and I don't like what I see, either.

How can you disagree with someone civilly when you've never been taught how to in the first place? How can you even grasp the concept of different points of view when you are taught that there is only one point of view that is right, that is politically correct, and all others are wrong and evil? Who wants to be wrong and evil? Obviously, you do, if you don't agree with me, right?

reply to post by louczar

Dear louczar,

You've made clear that this hostility we face is deeply implanted and a huge change from where we were not too long ago.

Does ATS have a chance of teaching necessary skills, like reason and discussion, through example? Would more of a crack-down by the Mods help? Or do the members just have to step carefully around the ever-growing piles of poo in order to find a decent discussion?

Perhaps finding like-minded posters and creating a sub-ATS? I really don't know how to solve it. I was just trying to identify the problem.

With respect,
Charles1952

I was just cruising around, as is my wont, and stumbled across an article discussing the upcoming ITU conference which is hoping to gain at least some control over the internet. www.bbc.co.uk...

But the agency said action was needed to ensure investment in infrastructure to help more people access the net.

"The brutal truth is that the internet remains largely [the] rich world's privilege, " said Dr Hamadoun Toure, secretary-general of the UN's International Telecommunications Union, ahead of the meeting.

"ITU wants to change that."

Envy?

reply to post by charles1952


Interesting thread. Thanks for the synopsis.

I think the majority of the time when people just start slinging insults and other nonsense it's because they are insecure about their position, and can't think up a good argument, or are too lazy. I think pride has a lot to do with it as well. How often do you see someone say 'Wow, that's really a good point, I think I was wrong.' Almost never. People get emotionally invested in a certain belief, and it becomes very hard to admit they may have been naive, swindled, uninformed etc.

The people I respect the most are the ones that can agree to disagree, and take something away from the conversation.

Then there are those that don't take much on the internet seriously and enjoy ruffling feathers.

It's not just ATS, the problem with the world is hate, jealousy and fear, no? How do we fix that?

Let it go and realize we're all in the same boat (and it's sinking). Easier said than done, I know.

reply to post by Maluhia

Dear Maluhia,

Thank you, that was one of the questions I was asking myself at the start.

It's not just ATS, the problem with the world is hate, jealousy and fear, no? How do we fix that?

What I was wondering was if it was possible to identify the problem a little more clearly, put it under a microscope as it were.

If I know (and I'm assuming) that hate, fear, and envy are the biggest enemies, then I can check myself when posting. Am I afraid? Do I hate something involved in this? Am I writing this way out of envy? That would seem to be a pretty quick and effective check on my words and behavior.

I haven't even considered the positive emotions that might apply. Am I showing love? Am I being humble? Am I being honest? That would be another thread, I think.

With respect,
Charles1952

Help me out. Polish up this idea, or show it's complete nonsense. I think I've got the start of something, but need your help.

reply to post by charles1952


I completely understand your quandary. Let me put my two cents in.
I joined ATS about 5 years ago, hoping to get into serious discourse regarding issues that confront us, and affect our lives. As time went on, it became clear to me that virtually every thread ends up with a few spoilers that can't intelligently address the issue at hand, but must resort to childish, and in many cases, vulgar tactics. There are of course many members that try to discuss issues intelligently without name-calling and vitriol, and for the most part, they are listed as my friends, as are you, certainly one of the very thoughtful members that try to address issues intelligently, without vitriol.
Eventually, the "noise" of others drowned out and overshadowed the insight of posters such as yourself. I refrained from ATS at that point, hoping that when the summer tourists left, things would get better, I'm not sure that it has. Every so often, return and look for OP's by my friends, and of course, found yours.
I believe that ATS has become so populated, that it is basically impossible to control. I understand that, and I understand the economics that drive the owners of ATS to "loosely" control the discourse.
Your OP, I believe, speaks not only to issues on ATS. but also to the general atmosphere in the US, and in the world today. Reason and common sense have been replaced, in many people, by emotions and political correctness. Furthermore, the "leaders" of the US, political, commerce and entertainment(including the MSM-which is more "entertainment" than news reporting), inspire this road. It comes down to self-less versus selfishness, sacrifice versus sacrifice, i-want-it-now versus altruism, and I am afraid that the scales have tipped in favor of the "live-in-the-now" attitude.
I know that my thoughts may not satisfy exactly what you are trying to get at, but they are my sincere thoughts, and as a friend of mine, I can only give you that.
Peace, and have a great holiday season.