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question......how do ''Muslims'' see the end of times??? Is there prophecy for the end of the w

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posted on May, 5 2003 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

you all say u are practicing the true islam.... the other side says the same...



The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I know exactly what you're trying to stir up; you're saying that "nobody knows the true Islam", and I'm trying to explain it to you.

The other side is violating islamic LAWS. This is not tampering with any verses, or taking any verses literally, or changing anything else, it is a violation of islamic LAW.

Let me show you how your argument is illogical.

John Doe is arrested for DUI - Driving under the Influence.

The police claims that he is a criminal, but John Doe claims that he isn't.

Who do you believe, and why? JOHN DOE VIOLATED STATE LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!


In this case, terrorists violated ISLAMIC LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

Peace and God Bless!


[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]


okay good analogy to explain yourself better. let me add to that... let me tell you why your analogy doesnt apply to what i am asking here.

national law on criminal conduct is pretty cut and dry in our nation... if you do something this and this will happen etc. and its in the books to prove it... there isnt two sides here debating the law of dwi. there isnt one side saying "no look this is really the dwi law and the other side is false"... anotherwords there is no question that driving under the influence is agianst the law... no one believes differently.

however in the world of religion or spirituality we have a different case and its not really that cut and dry. in the world of religion we have people believing different laws from the same religon etc. ... see my point? see why your analogy really is flawed in the end? i mean it works with your point of view but doesnt with mine also. in order for your analogy to fully work it has to work with answering my basic question but it fails because we are going from unquestionable... no two side law (national law) to religious... questionable two or more side laws or beliefs.

what you have to do here is rip these peoples (the other idea) beliefs that they understand true islam by understanding the arabic language fully which is what they claim to do. you have to kind of present a great counter argument to that. show me that thier understanding of the arabic language is off somehow other then saying it is.



peace







Sigh.. I tried and tried but it's not really working. I suggest you learn arabic then, read the Qur'an, study Islamic teachings and history, and tell me which side you believe. I'll say it again - there is nothing to believe. There is not much of a difference in the translations my friend, the basic laws are written clear as day, and they are NOT arguing about it. Have you ever interviewed an "islamic" terrorist?

No, then don't say what they claim.

I tried my best. =)

Peace.



you tried what? to convince me of your belief? well thanks for trying but perhaps it will be better for your case to go over some of the arguments presented against it since they are valid. they need to be respected regardless if you dont believe that because it will make you better in convincing others. i think your way of trying on here was a thats just the way it is deal and that really doesnt fly ya know. not trying to be mean just calling it the way ive seen it. yeah i havent interviewed an islamic terrorist. i never will. however others have. people who are journalists for a living etc. and they pretty much say the same thing... in regards to thier beliefs in islam.... that the way you all portray it is wrong etc. etc.


No, bet you a million bucks if I question them about parts of the Islamic law they will shut up don't know how to answer me.



immediately that they know the real truth of the koran because of thier understanding of the arabic language etc. are they right? are they wrong?


They are wrong, because no translation of the QUR'AN is SO OFF THAT IT SAYS MURDER OF UNBELIEVERS/INNOCENTS IS ALLOWED.


Illuminati, try to help him understand, he's very confused or just playing dumb.

Peace




posted on May, 5 2003 @ 01:36 PM
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yeah go for it illumati try and help me out here. please dont attack me though.. its hard to respect your posts if you attack anyone that is sincerly trying to look for help.


now i am not trying to play dumb.... maybe i am concerning islam. maybe? maybe not? which is why i am asking you all homeboys. good gosh. can't anyone be seen as really trying to find some serious open minded answers from those inside the system? yes! i am one of them who is doing this. dont pick on me because of it. try and help. dont dog the questions because of whatever.

actually i would love to see both faces of islam debate each other on thier beliefs much like two different belief ideas in christianity debate each other.

i would like to see one of you all try and shut the other one up. i would like to see a representative of your side debate the representative of thier side.
that would be great. put it on cspan. id watch that sh it no doubt.






posted on May, 5 2003 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by Netchicken
Hmmm...




In the past I even used to post on an islamic messageboard (ummah.com(?))in an attempt to enter into dialogue and all I ever got was banned. The big difference as well was their aceptance of, and eagerness to, use abuse in their posts towards people who they considered infidels. When I had them on about it they couldn't see any problem in their words. Thats the difference the Holy Spirit makes.

So in the end its fruitless, the gulf is so big, and many islamic posters are too unequipped or unwilling to help bridge it.

Its one thing to memorise your koran, its another to actually understand it enough to be willing to debate it. In fact I have heard of muslims who were told not to debate it with christians as they would lose their faith.




[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Netchicken]



i too have tried to enter dialouge with other muslims on a muslim board. i was band also because i posted a different view. it was jacked because here i was really trying to get some good discussion going and such. now that i have had more expierences with discussing with muslims i find them to be very combative ... in terms of trying to have a discussion with them... and not able to continue on the discussion for whatever reason. there seems to be commom thread going on here. i hate that i am seeing that. i hoped some muslim out there would show a bit more understanding of my questions and you know more concern.... but i havent had that. i thought another_one would be that person but he just counts me out as maybe playing dumb or hating on him. which he never aplogized for or admitted he was wrong.

where did you get this belief or idea from?...

netchicken said "In fact I have heard of muslims who were told not to debate it with christians as they would lose their faith."



thats a trip.




[Edited on 5-5-2003 by krossfyter]



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by krossfyter
actually i would love to see both faces of islam debate each other on thier beliefs much like two different belief ideas in christianity debate each other.


Krossfyter, I'll say it as many times as it takes - Law is LAW. It has nothing to do with "translations" because no translation is much different from the other, the message and laws are the same.

On Christianity, I can basically convert any ADULT, rational, open-minded, uninfluenced Christian to Islam, very easily, and have done so many times.

How?

Showing them what Jesus really teaches in the bible, and what the Church teaches. Showing them that the trinity is a man-made lie, and showing them what Islam really teaches, what it thinks about Jesus, the Bible, and life.

However I can't - nor will I try - converting someone full of hatred and anger, someone like Helen who has no clue about history nor what anybody is talking about, who is influenced and manipulated by the media and the Church, or someone like Krossfyter who is trying to stir up the difference between islamic law and qur'an interpretation, to spread anti-islamic poison.

I give up, Illuminati, maybe you can "help" them


Peace!



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by krossfyter
dont dog the questions because of whatever.


What questions have I "dogged" and how? Please be specific.

I haven't avoided one single question you asked



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter
dont dog the questions because of whatever.


What questions have I "dogged" and how? Please be specific.

I haven't avoided one single question you asked





well you counted me out by saying i was hating on you all and you never responded to me asking you to please retract those remarks because they arent true. so the question of me hating hasnt been addresed. thats one question you avoided. you have been addressing the others just fine so far thanx.

i think thats it. yep.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter
actually i would love to see both faces of islam debate each other on thier beliefs much like two different belief ideas in christianity debate each other.


Krossfyter, I'll say it as many times as it takes - Law is LAW. It has nothing to do with "translations" because no translation is much different from the other, the message and laws are the same.

On Christianity, I can basically convert any ADULT, rational, open-minded, uninfluenced Christian to Islam, very easily, and have done so many times.

How?

Showing them what Jesus really teaches in the bible, and what the Church teaches. Showing them that the trinity is a man-made lie, and showing them what Islam really teaches, what it thinks about Jesus, the Bible, and life.

However I can't - nor will I try - converting someone full of hatred and anger, someone like Helen who has no clue about history nor what anybody is talking about, who is influenced and manipulated by the media and the Church, or someone like Krossfyter who is trying to stir up the difference between islamic law and qur'an interpretation, to spread anti-islamic poison.

I give up, Illuminati, maybe you can "help" them


Peace!





oh okay simply because i question the law i am counted out as being poisonous. great. now whats next. obviously one side is believing the right side of islam... ITS NOT MY FAULT that there are different sides man. really. i didnt make that up. if you were an islamic terrorist i would be questioning you with the other side... the other side you are presenting of islam. its not my fault that islam appears to have two faces man. not at all. all i am doing is trying to question. and i am counted out and not adult. wow. i guess the only way i would not be counted out or an adult is if i believed every thing youve said and renounced Jesus as Lord and savior. Sorry buddy wont happen... never! may i forever be counted out if thats the case.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 02:24 PM
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wheres the respectful response to my analysis to your analogy? there is none.


i gave you a respectful comment about your analogy. hows that trying to be hateful or poisonous?



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by krossfyter

wheres the respectful response to my analysis to your analogy? there is none.



Yes there is, I've said it earlier. My anology was really good. LAW is LAW, you can understand it with basic arabic, there is no need for "advanced arabic" as you say or different interpretations. Law is Law, therefore the other side or "other FACE" as you so disrespectfully say, is not Islamic.

If I converted to Christianity (which cannot and will not happen even if someone tortured me), and formed a Christian group that killed everyone who isn't Christian, would I or members of that group be considered followers of Christianity, Krossfyter?

Again, we would claim we practice true Christianity...



Peace & God Bless.

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 03:04 PM
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War has broken out again
. We should have a war section at ATS. It might attract more members.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by FoxStriker
War has broken out again
.


No i'm just answering his questions.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

wheres the respectful response to my analysis to your analogy? there is none.



Yes there is, I've said it earlier. My anology was really good. LAW is LAW, you can understand it with basic arabic, there is no need for "advanced arabic" as you say or different interpretations. Law is Law, therefore the other side or "other FACE" as you so disrespectfully say, is not Islamic.

If I converted to Christianity (which cannot and will not happen even if someone tortured me), and formed a Christian group that killed everyone who isn't Christian, would I or members of that group be considered followers of Christianity, Krossfyter?

Again, we would claim we practice true Christianity...



Peace & God Bless.

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]



nah you said " Sigh.. I tried and tried but it's not really working." in response to my reponse to your analgoy. you didnt even give it any credit for my view as i did with yours.
right law is law. but people have different believes of what the real law is in relgious studies man... its not like your analogy because theres different sides. it is like your analogy in the form of law being one and only one... and absoulute regardless of what people believe.... but again your analogy fails because there is no one dis agreeing wth what the real national is to dwi as there is disagreement to what the real law is in islam... which is why there is TWO FACES in islam... the violent side and the peaceful side.

no the followers of christianity do not or are not suppose to kill people to convert to christianity by force. they will not be considerd christians... because Jesus never taught that as conversion. however there is dispute that mohammed taught violence as a method of conversion. not my fault that there is dispute about that there just is.


of course you believe he didnt because you are on your side... but that doesnt negate the fact that there are islamic terrorists out there who believe different.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by helen670
If 'Islam'' is such a loving religion, then why did so many Christians get ''Murdered ''' for not announcing the name '''Allah'' ???


Such generalizations are easy for Muslims to say about "Christians" when considering moments in history such as the crusades. Violence, death, murder, mayhem, and assorted human ugliness is not a stranger to either religion.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by krossfyter

right law is law. but people have different believes of what the real law is in relgious studies man... its not like your analogy because theres different sides. it is like your analogy in the form of law being one and only one... and absoulute regardless of what people believe....



I'm not going to explain it to you for the 5th time, simply tired of it lol. Illuminati, you can try if you want.



but again your analogy fails because there is no one dis agreeing wth what the real national is to dwi as there is disagreement to what the real law is in islam...


No, there is no disagreement to what the real law is in Islam. The only thing the terrorists CAN say is that the people they murder are NOT innocent human beings.

That claim has nothing to do with Islamic Law or teachings. There is still no disagreement in what "real law" is. Law is Law.



which is why there is TWO FACES in islam... the violent side and the peaceful side.


No, only one side - peaceful. The other is not considered Islamic for reasons stated 15 times earlier.



no the followers of christianity do not or are not suppose to kill people to convert to christianity by force.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, and Muslims are??



however there is dispute that mohammed taught violence as a method of conversion. not my fault that there is dispute about that there just is.


Fyi, Muhammed (pbuh) never took personal revenge against his enemies. What he did was self defense and Illuminati said it perfectly in another topic. He stated that Muhammed (pbuh) lived in a time which was hell compared to the time Jesus (pbuh) lived in. He NEVER preached conversion by force nor did he slaughter innocent human beings who were actually unbelievers. He battled those who waged war against him.

www.thereligioustruth.com...

There's an article there on ISLAM SPREADING BY SWORD - MYTH AND REALITY, read it if you want.



of course you believe he didnt because you are on your side... but that doesnt negate the fact that there are islamic terrorists out there who believe different.


There are Christians who believe other things as well, but as you've said it - their belief is based on nothing since those teachings are not in Bible.
Same thing with Islam.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by William
Such generalizations are easy for Muslims to say about "Christians" when considering moments in history such as the crusades.


Yes, but the difference is that this generalization is most of the time only used by muslims in defense to "Christians" like Helen670.

Very good input William!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 06:45 PM
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Williams response is just an old chestnut hauled out by people trying to minimise the violence of Muslims. Yet on anaylsis is not a valid comment to make,

Firstly it was done around 1000 years ago (thats a long time and a huge cultural shi.ft)

Secondly it is a shallow comment not acknowledging the political and social conditions of the day, not to mention the ignorant, illiterate masses controlled by manipulative priests (hey thats part of Islam today!)


If you wish to use christian violence as an example then show us some CONTEMPORY examples, to go back 1000 years is not justification.


Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by William
Such generalizations are easy for Muslims to say about "Christians" when considering moments in history such as the crusades.


Yes, but the difference is that this generalization is most of the time only used by muslims in defense to "Christians" like Helen670.

Very good input William!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]



[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Netchicken]



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 06:47 PM
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This is where I stand.

People can never disprove Islam, period. They can try, they can try all they want but they will never disprove Islam for the religion it is which is love and peace and brotherhood. This is why Islam is seen as a religion of terror and Christianity isnt. Because there werent no cameras and video recorders back in history, that's why. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition to name a few. And go off telling me they were Catholics, we Christians are good Christian folk because that's BS. The way I see it, if your a believer in Jesus your Christian period. Christians have off'ed more people in history than any other religion. And that is the truth. The truth hurts. I can talk about history all I want believe it or not. I can talk about on how the Jews begged the Moors, who were African Muslims, for help to liberate them from their Christian oppressors. The Moors being Muslims they were quick to help their Jewish brothers and they conquered and SLAUGHTERED those Christian pigs.


Yes believe it or not, Muslims have shed blood for the Jews, more than people actually think.

The thing that kills me is when Christians bring up the negative in Islam and not the negative in their own religion. Like Christians never killed and murdered in the name of Jesus. Want a history book, take a look at the entire Slave Trade. 300 Million Africans killed. What happened to Christian love and peace? Oh wait I forgot, Christianty supports and loves slavery.

Christianity= the slave master religion.

Dont judge a religion because one or two people who cloak themselves behind it. Because if you do you should hate your own religion because of the people who have given it a bad name. And believe me, there's hundreds of them.

There once lived a Christian. But he wasnt Christian. He sinned knowing it, he ate the pig, cursed, spit, the whole nine yards. He sinned and he didnt care. All of us sin now but this man just sinned boastful. Then he will go to church sunday morning just to say he was in church sunday morning. Then monday morning he will brag about on how he's going to heaven because he's a Christian and he's "holy" and how Muslims and Jews are going to hell. Mind you, this man sinned sinned sinned then went to church thinking if he'd ask for Jesus' forgiveness he'd get it because he's a Christian and Christians get everything they want. Then Monday morning, back to the sinning and bragging about how Muslims and Jews are devils. Then back to church sunday morning, ask for forgiveness. then back at it monday morning. It was a cycle for him.

That's where I stand.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 06:51 PM
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Great post Illuminati.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 07:21 PM
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Here we go again Illmatic froths at the mouth and posts about the distant history of christianity as if it was current today.

It was christians that STOPPED the slave trade, and over the world has worked to have it ended.

It continues in arabic countries today with indentured laborers.

It also was common in arabic history as well. Much more on the link.

Funny you have to look 100's if not a 1000 years ago to find examples I can find them TODAY. Which would you say is more relvent?

HERE

Slavery in Early Islamic History

It was intriguing to note in Bernard Lewis' book, The Arabs in History, that paper was made first in China in the year 105 B.C. In A.D. 751, the Arabs defeated a Chinese contingent east of the 'Jaxartes'. (Jaxartes is a river that lies on the border between China and present-day Afghanistan. Persian King Cyrus was killed fighting near this river, about 500 B.C.) The Arabs found some Chinese paper makers among their prisoners. Many such skills were brought into the Islamic world in this way. The use of paper spread rapidly across the Islamic world, reaching Egypt by A.D. 800 and Spain by the year 900. From the tenth century onwards, evidence is clear of paper-making occurring in countries of the Middle East and North Africa, as well as in the European country of Spain.

The Arabs profited from the craft of the paper makers they had captured as slaves. From archaeologists and records kept in ancient times, we learn that slave trade existed for a long time in the Arab world. Back in the days of the caliphs [early Muslim leaders], having a slave for a mother was not a stigma for a Muslim man. Due to polygamy, this was quite common.

At first the caliphs maintained a kind of aristocracy among themselves, making it imperative that the mother of a caliph was from one of the Arab tribes. However, as more and more slaves adopted the religion of Islam, noble birth and tribal prestige lost their value. By the year 817, the Abbasid Caliphs and succeeding Muslim rulers often were the sons of slave women, many of whom were foreign. Such parentage ceased to be either an obstacle or a stigma.

Growth of the Slave Trade

Quite possibly, the maintenance of slavery and the social acceptance of slaves were important drawing cards for Islam as it penetrated Africa. Without a knowledge of history, many Africans may be unaware of the fact that Islamic traders carried on a steady slave trade from East African ports for many centuries. Records are available which contain the lists of goods involved in trade with the rest of the world.



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by Netchicken
Here we go again Illmatic froths at the mouth and posts about the distant history of christianity as if it was current today.

It was christians that STOPPED the slave trade, and over the world has worked to have it ended.

It continues in arabic countries today with indentured laborers.

It also was common in arabic history as well. Much more on the link.

Funny you have to look 100's if not a 1000 years ago to find examples I can find them TODAY. Which would you say is more relvent?

HERE

Slavery in Early Islamic History

It was intriguing to note in Bernard Lewis' book, The Arabs in History, that paper was made first in China in the year 105 B.C. In A.D. 751, the Arabs defeated a Chinese contingent east of the 'Jaxartes'. (Jaxartes is a river that lies on the border between China and present-day Afghanistan. Persian King Cyrus was killed fighting near this river, about 500 B.C.) The Arabs found some Chinese paper makers among their prisoners. Many such skills were brought into the Islamic world in this way. The use of paper spread rapidly across the Islamic world, reaching Egypt by A.D. 800 and Spain by the year 900. From the tenth century onwards, evidence is clear of paper-making occurring in countries of the Middle East and North Africa, as well as in the European country of Spain.

The Arabs profited from the craft of the paper makers they had captured as slaves. From archaeologists and records kept in ancient times, we learn that slave trade existed for a long time in the Arab world. Back in the days of the caliphs [early Muslim leaders], having a slave for a mother was not a stigma for a Muslim man. Due to polygamy, this was quite common.

At first the caliphs maintained a kind of aristocracy among themselves, making it imperative that the mother of a caliph was from one of the Arab tribes. However, as more and more slaves adopted the religion of Islam, noble birth and tribal prestige lost their value. By the year 817, the Abbasid Caliphs and succeeding Muslim rulers often were the sons of slave women, many of whom were foreign. Such parentage ceased to be either an obstacle or a stigma.

Growth of the Slave Trade

Quite possibly, the maintenance of slavery and the social acceptance of slaves were important drawing cards for Islam as it penetrated Africa. Without a knowledge of history, many Africans may be unaware of the fact that Islamic traders carried on a steady slave trade from East African ports for many centuries. Records are available which contain the lists of goods involved in trade with the rest of the world.



Netchicken, are we looking at teachings of a religion or acts committed against the teachings?

" .. it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves .." - The Qur'an 2:177

" .. and if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you .. " - The Qur'an 24:33

************

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." - Colossians 3:22

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered." - Timothy 6:1

"Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? 'Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.' Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." - Galatians 4:28-31

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." - Leviticus 25:44-46

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." - Luke 12:47-48

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." - Peter 2:18

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, because the slave is his property." - Exodus 21:20-21

I cannot and will not believe that something this disgusting can be the word of God.

I confess in the name of GOD Almighty. SUBHANALAH

La Ilaha Il Allah Muhammedun RasulAllah.

BismillahIrahmaniraHim... ALLAHHHHUAKKBAR God is Great

Alhamdulillah!

AllaikumWa'salaam Rahmatullah Wa'barakatuhu

I bear witness that there is no god but GOD, and Muhammed was a messenger of God.

Peace.






[Edited on 6-5-2003 by another_one]



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