illmatic why must you think i am trying to bash muslims? really i am not. i am being damn serious man. you always think i have this motive. which i dont. just because i dont agree with you and show it doenst mean that i am trying to bash you or or religion. please understand this. i just qouted what the "other side" qoutes from the koran... thats it man. i am not trying to bash with it. why must you take offense to that? dont man. just have a nice little respectfull convo and tryin and be nice to people without thinking of them as trying to dog you or your religion. i am but questioning and conversing. i am not trying to pick fights or start sh i t. please understand this.

havent those sites been proven to try and portray christians in another light? arent they created by people with hate in thier heart? I think they have been confirmed bogus.. but i am not to sure. anyways i am but skeptical of everyone or anything who reacts against people who use these sites against christians who choose to have a diferent believe then muslims. doesnt bother me. i know what i believe and it will never change.



another one. thanks for not thinking like illmatic that i am trying to bash you guys. finally another muslim who is not so combative.

in John 14:6
Jesus said , 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'".


now i know a lot of people muslim, non christian, atheist, agnostic, whatever like to discredit this verse and prounounce that its wrong or that it was incorporated some time later that Jesus never spoke it. but quite frankly i take that as pure bull sh i t. These are just attempts by satanic forces to try and screw with the NARROW truth.


if you think you are going to change my view on this think again. it wont happen. NEVER. i am sold out to Jesus man. Nothing will take that away. you can try and convience me otherwise.. i am not saying you cant try.. because you can do what you want... but just know it will never work. if we want to keep conversing and keep rolling you have to know that i am set with Jesus as the only way. i started a convo with you to see what you had to say about the other side that is in ideas portraying the wrong islam. i was just questiong. your answeres are good. i respect them. however i dont think we have gotten to the meat of the convo. why is this other side using these same verses for that? i think you were alluding to the fact that they were for certain battles at that time only. can we establish some proof of that in the koran? i know you made a parallel with the bible. does the bible tell us christians to kill those who dont believe like we do? where? thats anotherthing. some why do some muslims like to pick and choose what they believe in the bible? do they believe the bible or only some of it? if you believe only some of it and think of the whole thing as false how can you justify that parts of it are true? just questioning. i am using the koran to talk to you all about whats being said by the other side of islam. the side that gives you all a bad name i guess. i have met a lot of nice muslims in this world. another one is a another nice one that i have met on the net. abstract is another one but he says he is not muslim but more open minded or something. illmatic is very confrontational and mean. i have tried to be friends with him but he doesnt care.

dont get me wrong i believe that the majority of Muslims are wonderful, loving, hospitable people. I want to differentiate between them and these groups (the other side) that is yielding to seems to be that spirit of jihad.
Once they yield to that spirit, it's a very vengeful, hateful, demonic, spirit of death... it seems. on that side of Islam it has two major spirits that we have to watch out for. number one is terror, fear. It creates fear and then rules in that fear. Number two is the spirit of death and war and waging war. all these fanatical fundamentalists are yielding to it, they follow those scriptures. does the other side agree with it or accept it?.. the side of loving muslims??? I guess it is like Christians. We have Christians that we call charismatics, who believe in the Holy Ghost and praying for sick people and speaking with other tongues. But then there are millions of Christians that haven't yielded to that baptism and they don't walk in it. So the difference is between those who yielded to that spirit of Islam and those who don't believe in it... i guess.

would you say that the majority of muslims do not know what the koran teaches? i heard it said many times that they have an idea and they hear mainly about what it says. that most people cannot understand the Koran, because it is in Arabic and they are told you have to understand the Koran in Arabic or you don't understand what its saying. For all these nations that are not Arab nations, like Persia, they have to learn it and study it in Arabic.

i think when trying to figure out who is practicing the true islam we have to find out who really knows thier arabic. the hateful groups in islam say they know thier arabic well and i think the loving side says that too but i am not sure.


am i off or am i on to something?


dont be offended... just conversing.




[Edited on 4-5-2003 by krossfyter]

Originally posted by krossfyter
i know you made a parallel with the bible. does the bible tell us christians to kill those who dont believe like we do? where?

Illuminati already answered that question, read his post.

However, I'll be glad to give you an example;

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." - Chronicles 15:13

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other Gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first hand putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." - Deuteronomy 13:6-9

You do hate Muslims, else you would not have posted that mis-translated and mis-understood verse that is on every single ANTI-ISLAMIC website. What you should have done was research.

Peace.

Originally posted by krossfyter


am i off or am i on to something?

You're way off. Islam is Harmony, Love, Tolerance, and Peace.

so if i question another muslim i am labeled as hating them?

okay. how?

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter


am i off or am i on to something?

You're way off. Islam is Harmony, Love, Tolerance, and Peace.

right i understand your position. but the other side claims they are studying and believing the true islam yet they dont subscribe to these views posted above towards others. they claim they study the true form of the koran. they claim they know arabic and that you all dont understand the koran because you all dont know or fully understand the arabic language. so how do you all respond to that? again i am not trying to hate... just to question, converse. dont form thse preconceptions about me because i like question.

Krossfyter, how many times can I say it lol

The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I bet you're still not satisfied.

Originally posted by another_one
Krossfyter, how many times can I say it lol

The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I bet you're still not satisfied.

lol


its cool man. i understand your position. its not like i dont. i understood this a while back.
what i am saying... and maybe i havent been clear about that is this as to why you are not understanding my position... thinking im going over the same question over and over...

you all say u are practicing the true islam.... the other side says the same...

the other side also says the same thing of what you are saying about them.. that you all are not practicing the true tenants of islam etc. etc. blah blah blah...

now what i am getting at is that who do i believe? i cant simply believe one or the other because of what one or the other is telling me. obviously i cant research the truth about this because i cant understand arabic. is there some other way to get closer to the truth about this then here say?

also... i dont appreciate you claiming that i am hating on you or anyone else because i am questioning. perhaps you choose the wrong form of words in describing my actions. if i was appearing in some way as being hateful to you then i apologize because thats not my intention. perhaps im lacking in research or knowledge on islam. perhaps thats what you are seeing.... and mis understanding it as being hateful because for the life of me i cant see why anyone would think that simply questioning another would be hateful. can you answer them questions or reactions? you've answered one question already (thats been understood the first time after your responded) but havent acknowledged the rest.
thanx.


peace.

ah screw it ...we will just be going around in circles i guess.


i am really trying hard to be nice and still ask you all questions but its not working. for some reason i am being mis treated as hating on you all... which is not the truth at all. so how can a civil discussion take place when one persons intention is being misunderstood? well anyways say what you all want. i do love muslims and thats the truth. i have friends who are muslims and have asked them the same questions. they are pretty basic with me about the answers not going an further for some reason. i dont want to presure them so i just let it go. i thought by asking others online it would be different. i thought by asking you "alone" that i would get somewhere... but obviously its not working. sorry about that if its my fault... i didnt mean any ill will. take care man.





[Edited on 5-5-2003 by krossfyter]

Hmmm...

The problem is that the people attempting to answer your questions Krossfliter are feeling threatened, thats why you are feeling that they are against you.

There are some reasons for this...
Muslims don't debate the Koran like we debate the bible, they hold to a more literal interpretation of it that makes discussion a herasy. Whereas the Bible has been discussed, argued, disected and abused for the last 2000 years - and still come out tops.

Also what you and I consider 'islam' is not what they consider 'islam'. We hold different tags and emotional attachments to the word than muslims do despite using the same words. A similar thing happens when we discuss christianity, we have differnet meanings to the same words used by non christians - faith, obedience, sacrifice, etc.

A third threat you make to their belief is the two sides of Islam, the violent and the peaceful side. It is impossible to reconcile them so the best thing to is to avoid talking about it or to label the people as "non islamic". I supose christians might have a similar feeling about JW's or some other bible based cults that exist (true jesus church, mormans etc). We know that they are wrong and not christians, but try telling that to a non believer.

In the past I even used to post on an islamic messageboard (ummah.com(?))in an attempt to enter into dialogue and all I ever got was banned. The big difference as well was their aceptance of, and eagerness to, use abuse in their posts towards people who they considered infidels. When I had them on about it they couldn't see any problem in their words. Thats the difference the Holy Spirit makes.

So in the end its fruitless, the gulf is so big, and many islamic posters are too unequipped or unwilling to help bridge it.

Its one thing to memorise your koran, its another to actually understand it enough to be willing to debate it. In fact I have heard of muslims who were told not to debate it with christians as they would lose their faith.




[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by krossfyter

you all say u are practicing the true islam.... the other side says the same...

The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I know exactly what you're trying to stir up; you're saying that "nobody knows the true Islam", and I'm trying to explain it to you.

The other side is violating islamic LAWS. This is not tampering with any verses, or taking any verses literally, or changing anything else, it is a violation of islamic LAW.

Let me show you how your argument is illogical.

John Doe is arrested for DUI - Driving under the Influence.

The police claims that he is a criminal, but John Doe claims that he isn't.

Who do you believe, and why? JOHN DOE VIOLATED STATE LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

In this case, terrorists violated ISLAMIC LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

Peace and God Bless!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]

Originally posted by Netchicken
Hmmm...

The problem is that the people attempting to answer your questions Krossfliter are feeling threatened, thats why you are feeling that they are against you.

There are some reasons for this...
Muslims don't debate the Koran like we debate the bible, they hold to a more literal interpretation of it that makes discussion a herasy. Whereas the Bible has been discussed, argued, disected and abused for the last 2000 years - and still come out tops.

Also what you and I consider 'islam' is not what they consider 'islam'. We hold different tags and emotional attachments to the word than muslims do despite using the same words. A similar thing happens when we discuss christianity, we have differnet meanings to the same words used by non christians - faith, obedience, sacrifice, etc.

A third threat you make to their belief is the two sides of Islam, the violent and the peaceful side. It is impossible to reconcile them so the best thing to is to avoid talking about it or to label the people as "non islamic". I supose christians might have a similar feeling about JW's or some other bible based cults that exist (true jesus church, mormans etc). We know that they are wrong and not christians, but try telling that to a non believer.

In the past I even used to post on an islamic messageboard (ummah.com(?))in an attempt to enter into dialogue and all I ever got was banned. The big difference as well was their aceptance of, and eagerness to, use abuse in their posts towards people who they considered infidels. When I had them on about it they couldn't see any problem in their words. Thats the difference the Holy Spirit makes.

So in the end its fruitless, the gulf is so big, and many islamic posters are too unequipped or unwilling to help bridge it.

Its one thing to memorise your koran, its another to actually understand it enough to be willing to debate it. In fact I have heard of muslims who were told not to debate it with christians as they would lose their faith.




[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Netchicken]

wow thanks for that bit of insight. this makes a lot of sense now. because you know its wierd to actually sit here and try my best to be respectful and hold a civil discussion with a muslim and then i get shot back as being hateful. im like "where in the hell did that come from". it didnt make any sense to me. was i being misunderstood or was i actually being a bit hurtful on accident (cuase Lord knows my intention wasnt that)... so i looked back at my posts and didnt see anything that could be mis construed to be hatefull in anyway. so it made me do a serious triple take. thanks for breaking it down for me and telling me whats really up.

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

you all say u are practicing the true islam.... the other side says the same...

The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I know exactly what you're trying to stir up; you're saying that "nobody knows the true Islam", and I'm trying to explain it to you.

The other side is violating islamic LAWS. This is not tampering with any verses, or taking any verses literally, or changing anything else, it is a violation of islamic LAW.

Let me show you how your argument is illogical.

John Doe is arrested for DUI - Driving under the Influence.

The police claims that he is a criminal, but John Doe claims that he isn't.

Who do you believe, and why? JOHN DOE VIOLATED STATE LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

In this case, terrorists violated ISLAMIC LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

Peace and God Bless!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]

okay good analogy to explain yourself better. let me add to that... let me tell you why your analogy doesnt apply to what i am asking here.

national law on criminal conduct is pretty cut and dry in our nation... if you do something this and this will happen etc. and its in the books to prove it... there isnt two sides here debating the law of dwi. there isnt one side saying "no look this is really the dwi law and the other side is false"... anotherwords there is no question that driving under the influence is agianst the law... no one believes differently.

however in the world of religion or spirituality we have a different case and its not really that cut and dry. in the world of religion we have people believing different laws from the same religon etc. ... see my point? see why your analogy really is flawed in the end? i mean it works with your point of view but doesnt with mine also. in order for your analogy to fully work it has to work with answering my basic question but it fails because we are going from unquestionable... no two side law (national law) to religious... questionable two or more side laws or beliefs.

what you have to do here is rip these peoples (the other idea) beliefs that they understand true islam by understanding the arabic language fully which is what they claim to do. you have to kind of present a great counter argument to that. show me that thier understanding of the arabic language is off somehow other then saying it is.



peace

gota speak up here!!!

If 'Islam'' is such a loving religion, then why did so many Christians get ''Murdered ''' for not announcing the name '''Allah'' ???
This question came up with a friend of myn who is 'muslim'' She could not answer me..........Although she does not agree with the Murders, she gave no answer..........Neither could her parents.............And they full on beleive that Muhammed was a man of goodness.........
Answer me that........How can you say '''Islam'' is a loving one.......???

Christians chose God and the Sword of the Muslims.......Rather then speaking against their True Saviour........Jesus Christ........
I would do the same today...........I would rather Die,be tortured ,murdered,slayed,call it whatever, ........then dinounce my faith in Jesus Christ........and follow a religion of Muhammed...........

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

you all say u are practicing the true islam.... the other side says the same...

The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I know exactly what you're trying to stir up; you're saying that "nobody knows the true Islam", and I'm trying to explain it to you.

The other side is violating islamic LAWS. This is not tampering with any verses, or taking any verses literally, or changing anything else, it is a violation of islamic LAW.

Let me show you how your argument is illogical.

John Doe is arrested for DUI - Driving under the Influence.

The police claims that he is a criminal, but John Doe claims that he isn't.

Who do you believe, and why? JOHN DOE VIOLATED STATE LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

In this case, terrorists violated ISLAMIC LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

Peace and God Bless!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]

okay good analogy to explain yourself better. let me add to that... let me tell you why your analogy doesnt apply to what i am asking here.

national law on criminal conduct is pretty cut and dry in our nation... if you do something this and this will happen etc. and its in the books to prove it... there isnt two sides here debating the law of dwi. there isnt one side saying "no look this is really the dwi law and the other side is false"... anotherwords there is no question that driving under the influence is agianst the law... no one believes differently.

however in the world of religion or spirituality we have a different case and its not really that cut and dry. in the world of religion we have people believing different laws from the same religon etc. ... see my point? see why your analogy really is flawed in the end? i mean it works with your point of view but doesnt with mine also. in order for your analogy to fully work it has to work with answering my basic question but it fails because we are going from unquestionable... no two side law (national law) to religious... questionable two or more side laws or beliefs.

what you have to do here is rip these peoples (the other idea) beliefs that they understand true islam by understanding the arabic language fully which is what they claim to do. you have to kind of present a great counter argument to that. show me that thier understanding of the arabic language is off somehow other then saying it is.



peace

Sigh.. I tried and tried but it's not really working. I suggest you learn arabic then, read the Qur'an, study Islamic teachings and history, and tell me which side you believe. I'll say it again - there is nothing to believe. There is not much of a difference in the translations my friend, the basic laws are written clear as day, and they are NOT arguing about it. Have you ever interviewed an "islamic" terrorist?

No, then don't say what they claim.

I tried my best. =)

Peace.

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by another_one

Originally posted by krossfyter

you all say u are practicing the true islam.... the other side says the same...

The "other side" is NOT Muslim because it violates basic Islam LAW. Murder of Innocents is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and ISLAMIC LAW cannot be modified and tampered with.

I know exactly what you're trying to stir up; you're saying that "nobody knows the true Islam", and I'm trying to explain it to you.

The other side is violating islamic LAWS. This is not tampering with any verses, or taking any verses literally, or changing anything else, it is a violation of islamic LAW.

Let me show you how your argument is illogical.

John Doe is arrested for DUI - Driving under the Influence.

The police claims that he is a criminal, but John Doe claims that he isn't.

Who do you believe, and why? JOHN DOE VIOLATED STATE LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

In this case, terrorists violated ISLAMIC LAW. YOU LOOK IT UP AND VERIFY!

Peace and God Bless!

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by another_one]

okay good analogy to explain yourself better. let me add to that... let me tell you why your analogy doesnt apply to what i am asking here.

national law on criminal conduct is pretty cut and dry in our nation... if you do something this and this will happen etc. and its in the books to prove it... there isnt two sides here debating the law of dwi. there isnt one side saying "no look this is really the dwi law and the other side is false"... anotherwords there is no question that driving under the influence is agianst the law... no one believes differently.

however in the world of religion or spirituality we have a different case and its not really that cut and dry. in the world of religion we have people believing different laws from the same religon etc. ... see my point? see why your analogy really is flawed in the end? i mean it works with your point of view but doesnt with mine also. in order for your analogy to fully work it has to work with answering my basic question but it fails because we are going from unquestionable... no two side law (national law) to religious... questionable two or more side laws or beliefs.

what you have to do here is rip these peoples (the other idea) beliefs that they understand true islam by understanding the arabic language fully which is what they claim to do. you have to kind of present a great counter argument to that. show me that thier understanding of the arabic language is off somehow other then saying it is.



peace

Sigh.. I tried and tried but it's not really working. I suggest you learn arabic then, read the Qur'an, study Islamic teachings and history, and tell me which side you believe. I'll say it again - there is nothing to believe. There is not much of a difference in the translations my friend, the basic laws are written clear as day, and they are NOT arguing about it. Have you ever interviewed an "islamic" terrorist?

No, then don't say what they claim.

I tried my best. =)

Peace.

you tried what? to convince me of your belief? well thanks for trying but perhaps it will be better for your case to go over some of the arguments presented against it since they are valid. they need to be respected regardless if you dont believe that because it will make you better in convincing others. i think your way of trying on here was a thats just the way it is deal and that really doesnt fly ya know. not trying to be mean just calling it the way ive seen it. yeah i havent interviewed an islamic terrorist. i never will. however others have. people who are journalists for a living etc. and they pretty much say the same thing... in regards to thier beliefs in islam.... that the way you all portray it is wrong etc. etc. that they know the real truth of the koran because of thier understanding of the arabic language etc. are they right? are they wrong? im tring to figure that out... you could be more helpful perhaps if you were more open minded about this. i think you could be that way and still believe what you believe.. which is fine. thanks for trying though...really i really appreciate it. sorry if i ever came off as anything ill in your view... i never ment that. im just trying to learn. i dont think i can really understand arabic at the moment.... its really a tough thing to get into. i think id rather learn hebrew or greek but arabic would be up there if i went the route of studying other languages or writings that is.
english is freakin hard enough man! haha.

besides another_one you gotta respect that tear into your analogy that i provided right?!


i thought your analogy was pretty cool for your belief. i think mine pretty cool for my side too. gotta give credit where credit is due.