The Pointing Game

The Pointing Game

Whenever a person points, he always points at something. That person can never and cannot point at nothing. If one cannot point at nothing but only at something, whatever he points at must be something and not nothing.

What would you point at when I ask you to show me:

God?
Consciousness?
The Soul?
Love?
Good?
Evil?
Or any other abstract terms you can easily prove exist by pointing them out?

Ummmm.... The dictionary?

You're mixing up objects with ideas, ideas have no inherent physical form, therefore we cannot physically point to them. We may point at symbolic objects which represent said ideas, such as a church for god, a heart for love, and so on, but it's not possible to physically point at things that don't physically exist.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


I'm not mixing anything up. They are indeed ideas. And they don't deserve exaltation, simply because they don't exist as anything but ideas.

Yet people kill for them. They destroy things they can point at for things they could never point at. Why is this?

Looks like someone has been smoking some good.... cigarettes tonight.

My question is ..................

What's the point of this thread ?

Pointing at consciousness is like using a knife to cut itself... The pointing occurs within consciousness, not at it
God doesn't exist in the sense of other objects, people, or things. "God" is just the Absolute, the eternal. That which is ineffable and any words I could use to describe would simply fall short of what "God" actually is.

Maybe some people kill for things they can't point at because its the things that don't have physical being that mean more (to an individual anyways) than things you can point at.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Point at anything, because all of the ideas espoused are vague.

Anything can be god. Point to a crucifix, or the Kaaba in Mecca. Point at my avatar because it is an idol of a goddess, and idols, as far back as Sumer and Egypt, were believed to house the deity itself.

Even consciousness can be pointed to if you undergo a brain-scan. Different lobes of the brain light up depending on what element of consciousness you use. You can point at consciousness.

Love can be pointed at in an incalculable number of ways. A child kissing his mother goodnight. A policeman giving a homeless man his shoes. Rescue workers rebuilding homes for hurricane victims.

Good as well: a vaccine to treat disease. Clean water, fresh fruit, and plentiful food delivered to starving nations and individuals. Just like with love, you can point at all of those activities and say "these are good."

The same goes for evil. Point to a man who murders people because they are different from him. Point to a Church who deems homosexuals to be degenerate and less than human. Point to a man who beats black men for being lesser-citizens. Point at a man who kills someone for believing in a different god.

We can point to an action, just as easily as to an object. Except for "soul," I cannot point at a soul because I don't believe souls exist.

~ Wandering Scribe

I would point at ME for all on your list.

Or I could point at you....or her, or him, or them, or us, or it....

You list things that shift in space and time so the pointing would only apply to a certain point in that space and time.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I would point you in the direction of the nearest mirror.

These words are often used as nouns, which signify a person place or thing, yet they don't represent a person place or thing. Nonetheless, when people use them or express what they think about them, they often, in error, think that noun represents a thing, when it doesn't.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Point at anything, because all of the ideas espoused are vague.

Anything can be god. Point to a crucifix, or the Kaaba in Mecca. Point at my avatar because it is an idol of a goddess, and idols, as far back as Sumer and Egypt, were believed to house the deity itself.

Even consciousness can be pointed to if you undergo a brain-scan. Different lobes of the brain light up depending on what element of consciousness you use. You can point at consciousness.

Love can be pointed at in an incalculable number of ways. A child kissing his mother goodnight. A policeman giving a homeless man his shoes. Rescue workers rebuilding homes for hurricane victims.

Good as well: a vaccine to treat disease. Clean water, fresh fruit, and plentiful food delivered to starving nations and individuals. Just like with love, you can point at all of those activities and say "these are good."

The same goes for evil. Point to a man who murders people because they are different from him. Point to a Church who deems homosexuals to be degenerate and less than human. Point to a man who beats black men for being lesser-citizens. Point at a man who kills someone for believing in a different god.

We can point to an action, just as easily as to an object. Except for "soul," I cannot point at a soul because I don't believe souls exist.

~ Wandering Scribe

You cannot point at Consciousness, God or Good no matter how much you twist their meaning. When you point at a crucifix, you are pointing at a crucifix. When you point at a brain scan, you are pointing at a brain scan. When you point at a child hugging its mother...you get the idea. You are not pointing to what they represent as symbols. What you are not pointing at is consciousness, not love, not God. The closest you could point to those ideas is by pointing to your own head, because thats where they lie.

Yet people put reverence on these ideals, something you rightly called idols, and they come to mind quicker than the particular and actual thing to which we point. This way of thinking is a deep rooted and fundamental error in human knowledge.

Originally posted by SpreadLoveNotHate
Pointing at consciousness is like using a knife to cut itself... The pointing occurs within consciousness, not at it
God doesn't exist in the sense of other objects, people, or things. "God" is just the Absolute, the eternal. That which is ineffable and any words I could use to describe would simply fall short of what "God" actually is.

Maybe some people kill for things they can't point at because its the things that don't have physical being that mean more (to an individual anyways) than things you can point at.

Point to me anything that is eternal. Point to me anything that is Absolute. You can't, because they don't exist. They are ideas that you find more important than real things.

That's what I'm trying to show. 'Things' cannot be things unless they have physical being. In other words, the things you put before real physical things are not real, non-existent, and nothing. Do you really think that nothing means more than something?

1) A synonym of god is "the absolute". If you point me everything, it will take you an eternity.
2) A synonym of consciousness is awareness. Everyone is aware that they're aware. Point me awareness.
3) Define soul.
4) Pointing a scene where a mother loves his child is feasible.
5) Pointing a scene where someone perform a good action is also feasible.
6) Pointing a scene where a murder happens is feasible, if you're unlucky enough.

I'll add another one: 7) Point me your thoughts. You can't be they are there....

Playing with words will lead you nowhere.

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
1) A synonym of god is "the absolute". If you point me everything, it will take you an eternity.
2) A synonym of consciousness is awareness. Everyone is aware that they're aware. Point me awareness.
3) Define soul.
4) Pointing a scene where a mother loves his child is feasible.
5) Pointing a scene where someone perform a good action is also feasible.
6) Pointing a scene where a murder happens is feasible, if you're unlucky enough.

I'll add another one: 7) Point me your thoughts. You can't be they are there....

Playing with words will lead you nowhere.

edit on 3-12-2012 by D1ss1dent because: typo

1) Everything is God? Isn't that the universe you are pointing at?
2) You cannot point to awareness, only things that appear to you to be aware.
3) How do you define something you cannot point to?
4) Insufficient. You're pointing to a mother and a child. Not a thing called Love.
5) Your pointing to someone performing what you think is a good deed, and you call that someone, or the deed, your ideal Good, when it simply isn't the case.
6) Pointing at a murder scene is still pointing at a murder scene. What you are not pointing at is evil, but your conception of it.
7) If I were to point at my thought, I could only point at my brain, where the memories and that about which I think about are stored. Thought is another abstraction.

Endowing your ideals with existence will lead you nowhere.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


“What we are looking for is what is looking.” ― St. Francis of Assisi

Are you trying to imply that because we can't measure these things, they don't exist? Or they don't matter if they do? You yourself gave the examples of consciousness and love in your opening post. Obviously those things exist and they matter.

This "Pointing Game" is a terrible argument, else I don't understand your point.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I disagree.

Imagine if a visitor from another world, or universe, were present beside you on Earth. If they asked you: "what is God? What is consciousness? What is love? What is good? What is evil?" and all you could do was point, then every one of my examples would suffice. At the end of the day the visitor could define love as an act of kindness; good as the result of beneficial actions; evil as the absence of love and good; god as an anthropomorphic collection of earthy material; and consciousness as the activity of the brain when we think, feel, and dream. The only difficult one is "soul," because "soul" isn't really anything.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Damsel
Are you trying to imply that because we can't measure these things, they don't exist? Or they don't matter if they do? You yourself gave the examples of consciousness and love in your opening post. Obviously those things exist and they matter.

This "Pointing Game" is a terrible argument, else I don't understand your point.

Please, by all means, show me where, when and how these nouns exist. I will every time show you an abstraction of a real thing. If you can only point out the word consciousness, then you have helped me prove it is nothing but a word.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

I disagree.

Imagine if a visitor from another world, or universe, were present beside you on Earth. If they asked you: "what is God? What is consciousness? What is love? What is good? What is evil?" and all you could do was point, then every one of my examples would suffice. At the end of the day the visitor could define love as an act of kindness; good as the result of beneficial actions; evil as the absence of love and good; god as an anthropomorphic collection of earthy material; and consciousness as the activity of the brain when we think, feel, and dream. The only difficult one is "soul," because "soul" isn't really anything.

~ Wandering Scribe

The visitor would have to, like you and me, admit that they are only ideas, and we use them as refinements in language to convey the idea or conception of love, good, evil etc. and not something called Love etc.

You believe the soul doesn't exist. Need I only point to a human to prove you wrong? Like you pointed at humans being nice to each other to prove the existence of love?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

The Pointing Game

Whenever a person points, he always points at something. That person can never and cannot point at nothing. If one cannot point at nothing but only at something, whatever he points at must be something and not nothing.

What would you point at when I ask you to show me:

God?
Consciousness?
The Soul?
Love?
Good?
Evil?
Or any other abstract terms you can easily prove exist by pointing them out?

edit on 2-12-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)

Does consciousness not exist?

If god exists outside of this universe it would be quite impossible to point at him eh?

the soul is quite synonymous with consciousness..

Love is a "feeling"... once again see consciousness.. conscious beings such as humans have senses ( sensitive bodies.. and minds ( at times) )... for your body to be working properly is known as health... because it is possible for a body to not work properly.. this is poor help.... for a consciousness.. it is a better experience ( an easier experience,,, not an experience with dis - ease) when ones body is working properly and sensitively "feeling" good..... Love.. is a word used to sum up the experience of this conciseness really liking the feeling of being in a place and time, with a person, or thing,... it can be compared relatively to not feeling good.. or not enjoying being in a certain place and time with person or thing... this is called hate..