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posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


You fail to see the point; clinical trials, double blind studies are all worthless when you understand the effecs and mechanisms of what is working. As far as the boy with the Autism that you tried to dismiss; why did you ignore the other 80 cases that received compensation. Or debunk the University study concluding that monkies developed te same autistic symptoms.

But since you want to tip-toe around and avoid answering questions directly. I'll just debunk your nonsense.

Acetyl L-Carnitine -


ALCAR has the ability to cross the blood–brain barrier and get to the brain blood circulation, where it acts as a powerful antioxidant,[14] which helps in prevention of the brain cells' deterioration. Its supplementation has been shown to be neuroprotective in instances of cerebral ischemia in rats[15] and may be useful in treating peripheral nerve injury as well as spinal cord injury.[16][17] It may have some neuroprotective benefit in the treatment of Parkinson's disease, but further research is required.[18] ALCAR is also known to increase sperm motility,[19] which describes the ability of sperm to move vigorously. Since motility is among the most important factors that help in the determination of sperm’s fertilization capability, acetyl-L-carnitine can help sperm cells move more actively, which consequently leads to the improved male fertility.


Vinpocetine -


Vinpocetine is reported to have cerebral blood-flow enhancing[2] and neuroprotective
effects,[3] and is used as a drug in Eastern Europe for the treatment of cerebrovascular disorders and age-related memory impairment.[4] Vinpocetine is widely marketed as a supplement for vasodilation and as a nootropic for the improvement of memory. In other words, Vinpocetine may help support brain functions such as concentration and memory by activating cerebral metabolism. A small subset of users report uncomfortable, adverse reactions to vinpocetine. A low initial dosage is ordinarily recommended.


Huperzine A -


Huperzine A is also an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, which has a mechanism of action similar to donepezil, rivastigmine, and galantamine. A pro-drug form of huperzine A (ZT-1) is under development as a treatment for Alzheimer's disease.[3] In the US, huperzine A is sold as a dietary supplement for memory support. The botanical has been used in China for centuries for the treatment of swelling, fever and blood disorders. Clinical trials in China have shown it to be effective in improving cognitive performance in patients with Alzheimer's disease[4] and enhancing memory in students.[5]


Now please tell me why it wouldn't enhance brain function or drop it. The ingredients have been proven clinically to work and your entire founding belief for skepticism is no trials. You were wrong.




posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by bettwice33

Originally posted by Pardon?

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Pardon?
 


What if what you constitute as opinions are really facts. Also, why did you avoid the big and pertinent questions I posed. You knocked the "Procera AVH", without any kind of scientific data or evidence debunking it's ingredients, which are listed. Secondly I posted two links on the last page that discussed admitted links between vaccines and autism.


As I said earlier, the website contains very little in the form of clinical trial evidence but a whole bunch of testimonials. Huge red flag for me.
On digging a bit more I discovered that their "clinical trial" was conducted in house, has not been peer reviewed and has not been submitted to any scientific journals. Essentially it's an in-depth testimonial.
Again, reading around it seems like it doesn't really work either.

doesitreallywork.org...

The person who was the lead of the monkey study has now left Pittsburgh (in shame) as she had a conflict of interests...
leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk...

In the second link the boy had an underlying mitochondrial disorder so whilst it's entirely possible that the vaccine triggered the onset of his autism that's very different from saying that the jab CAUSED it. If the vaccine hadn't triggered it something else, like a cold or flu could have. Who's to know?

www.sciencedaily.com...


LOL, you take quotes from Kevin Leech's blog and expect me to take you seriously? Is Kevin still trying to train his daughter like a monkey instead of using modern medicine to cure her?


Regardless of what site I linked it's the truth though isn't it?
I can back it up with other references if you like?
Which is something you can't do for your lies is it?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Pardon?
 


You fail to see the point; clinical trials, double blind studies are all worthless when you understand the effecs and mechanisms of what is working. As far as the boy with the Autism that you tried to dismiss; why did you ignore the other 80 cases that received compensation. Or debunk the University study concluding that monkies developed te same autistic symptoms.

But since you want to tip-toe around and avoid answering questions directly. I'll just debunk your nonsense.

Now please tell me why it wouldn't enhance brain function or drop it. The ingredients have been proven clinically to work and your entire founding belief for skepticism is no trials. You were wrong.


Yeah right, trials are pointless. Why on earth do we do them? What a waste of time and effort. Let's just rely on stories eh?

Did I dismiss the boy with autism story or did I tell you the reason he was compensated for it?
It was the latter.

Re-reading your posts I fail to see where you have mentioned these other 80 cases.

As for the monkeys, the study was agenda led (the lead had already filed a law suit against vaccine manufacturers so had everything to gain from a positive study result) and when scrutinised it turned out that the whole conclusion of the study was based on a control which was seriously flawed. In fact, another study was withdrawn after serious protocol issues were raised after initial publication.

Before I get into the other details, have a quick look at this.
www.topclassactions.com...
No doubt you will cry that it's a conspiracy, and cite that they have admitted to nothing but as everyone knows, an out of court settlement is tantamount to an admission of guilt.

You don't believe in trials so how about some testimonials....
www.amazon.com...=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
My personal opinion is that the one's with more than 3 stars are due to the placebo effect and/or people working for Brain Labs.

In your little Wikipedia quote about ALCAR I see lots of mays and mights but no definitives.
So basically it's pretty unclear about what, if any benefits it has as a "brain booster"

The same for Vinpocetine although I see that it's being marketed as a nootropic but as a supplement rather than a drug. If you had added a little bit more from your Wikipedia copy and paste you would have noticed that there has been limited studies performed on this and the results of these had been proclaimed as inconclusive.

As for the Huperzine A, again you've been very selective in what you've copied and pasted from Wikipedia haven't you?
Huperzine A is being investigated as a drug for people with Alzheimer's disease and is certainly showing some promise but it needs to be a relatively high dose for it to be effective. As regards the students it certainly seems to have some positive effects but it's only been trialled for this in adolescents not the over 40 demographic as advertised to on the Procera AVH website. It needs to be trialled in this demographic to understand its effects.


So in conclusion you seem to have lied when you stated that they've ALL been clinically PROVEN to work. They haven't, have they? My scepticism was based on there being no decent trials for Procera AVH, not the individual contents by the way.
Plus, being classed as a supplement, they're (stupidly IMO) not obliged to put exactly how much of each compound is in each capsule so you don't know how much you're having.
It seems that they've put together stuff in the hope that it should work and failed. But they'll continue selling it anyway 'cause that's how they roll.


Oh, what were you debunking me about again?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


No, none of the sites you linked to are the truth. All of them are opinions from degenerates who write untrue nonsense about vaccines and autism.

BTW, I did give you all of the evidence you demanded, and more. I educated you to the truth about autism and you went digging in the Pharma Propaganda Manual to try to find stupid arguments to deny what I taught you. Go back and reread everything I wrote in this thread and you will gain a true understanding of autism.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


It's not a lie; obviously those individual ingredients had to undergo clinical trials. You did nothing to debunk any of them. Also the boy with autism, was only one case of over 80, which it mentions in the same report. Secondly, don't Government institutions and pharmaceutical companies have a bias in the medicine and studies they conduct. Yes, they do. With that being said; what in the hell are you going on about?
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by VeritasAequitas
 


By the way; if the ingredients have been proven to work, there is no clinical study needed to confirm it works. The pill is basically a brain anti-oxidant complex.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


And actually there were only two mays in regards to possible uses for Alcar. Everything else is presented as fact; reading comprehension skills is a plus in any debate.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by bettwice33
reply to post by Pardon?
 


No, none of the sites you linked to are the truth. All of them are opinions from degenerates who write untrue nonsense about vaccines and autism.

BTW, I did give you all of the evidence you demanded, and more. I educated you to the truth about autism and you went digging in the Pharma Propaganda Manual to try to find stupid arguments to deny what I taught you. Go back and reread everything I wrote in this thread and you will gain a true understanding of autism.


Even the University of Pittsburgh official press release on the matter? I doubt that, quack.

I challenge anyone on here to point out any facts or evidence you've presented.

All you've taught on here is how to duck, dive, dodge and evade like the experienced quack you are.
I'll give you one thing, you're very good at that.
You should take it up as a profession.
Oh, wait....



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Pardon?
 


It's not a lie; obviously those individual ingredients had to undergo clinical trials. You did nothing to debunk any of them. Also the boy with autism, was only one case of over 80, which it mentions in the same report. Secondly, don't Government institutions and pharmaceutical companies have a bias in the medicine and studies they conduct. Yes, they do. With that being said; what in the hell are you going on about?
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)


Yes. Yes you did lie.
You said they were all clinically proven to work and they're not as I've shown.
As for the other 80 without seeing the individual cases it would be difficult for me to comment on them really.

Big pharma does indeed have influence upon trials and studies but if they're found out, they get heavily sanctioned for it. As per the case of the monkey-woman. So two wrongs make a right do they?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by VeritasAequitas
 


By the way; if the ingredients have been proven to work, there is no clinical study needed to confirm it works. The pill is basically a brain anti-oxidant complex.


But since they haven't then your point is moot is it not?
Have they been tested in combination (in a proper study that is)? No.

Can you tell me how much of each compound is in each capsule?
If you can't then how would you know that an effective dosage of each ingredient is present.
Do you know what the recommended dosage for each of the active ingredients is?

Answer those questions then maybe, just maybe this "debate" will progress.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Pardon?
 


And actually there were only two mays in regards to possible uses for Alcar. Everything else is presented as fact; reading comprehension skills is a plus in any debate.


How old are you? You don't seem very old judging by your replies.

Reading is one thing, actually understanding what has been read is another.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


You are such a shill. It's so obvious dude. Secondly, you look at treating illness on a combination basis. Analogy : I recently had some sinus problems, drainage, etc. I took a combination of 2x700mg Spirulina's, 5x 8000 IU Vitamin A, 2 B-complex with 300mg Vitamin C added, 1x 1000mg Vitamin C, all daily. I also drank maybe 2-3 Arizona Vitamin C enhanced teas.

You wanna know how long it took me to get rid of it? 3 days. If I went to the doctor I would still be taking antibiotics by the 7th day, blocking histamines that boost the immune system. I have a father who has Atherosclerosis and has already suffered one heart attack. I had to practically tell him everything he should be taking for this disease. When my father raised concerns over the vitamins and nutrients I confided to him, his doctor looked at him strangely and said that actually yes; he should be taking all of those. Now my question is; why can I do that quacks job?

Yes; if you read all of those that I posted; it is not debatable that the 3 of those "may protect from brain damage/ enhance brain function. It is fact.




ALCAR has the ability to cross the blood–brain barrier and get to the brain blood circulation, where it acts as a powerful antioxidant,[14] which helps in prevention of the brain cells' deterioration. Its supplementation has been shown to be neuroprotective in instances of cerebral ischemia in rats[


Nowhere in any of that does it leave it open for debate as to whether or not that is what it "may" or "may not" do. Re-examine them all, while they may have potential other uses, they all DO enhance or protect brain function. No mays or mays not about it. Why does my age matter? Why do you accuse people of outright deceit with NO proof? Why do you degenerate to calling people antagonistic names like quack? Do you have an assassination or a silencing agenda?




Vinpocetine is reported to have cerebral blood-flow enhancing[2] and neuroprotective effects,[3] and is used as a drug in Eastern Europe for the treatment of cerebrovascular disorders and age-related memory impairment.[4]





Huperzine A: Clinical trials in China have shown it to be effective in improving cognitive performance in patients with Alzheimer's disease[4] and enhancing memory in students.[5]


These are not debatable! Regardless of whether or not you can comment on the other cases; matters not. You are a nobody, who decides nothing on these matters; fortunately courts who do matter found it reasonable that they receive compensation. As for the monkies; does it matter if the school already filed legal proceedings? No it doesn't; but then again governments and pharmaceutical companies have agendas too. Don't be a hypocrite. What does anybody have to gain by a conspiracy theory like these; and what do they(TPTB),have to lose? Think about that one when you start pointing fingers and accusing people of deception because what they say doesn't coincide with your masters.
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


Bull#.



Procera AVH® is a proprietary, patent pending, nutritional supplement that was clinically tested and shown to help improve memory, focus, mental clarity, and even mood. Procera AVH®'s double-blind, placebo controlled University Clinical trial was conducted at the Brain Sciences Institute in Australia.


m.gnc.com...

Now, who is lying again? That's right you are.

www.brainresearchlabs.com...




Study Center – World Renown Brain Sciences Institute The ProceraAVH study was conducted by world renown cognitive researcher, Dr. Con Stough at the Brain Sciences Institute, Swinburne University, Melbourne, Australia. The Brain Sciences Institute was chosen for two reasons: It is one of the leading neuro-cognitive research labs in the world with a comprehensive array of neuro-psych tests, such as the FDA approved, CDR tests of cognitive function used in over 500 pharmaceutical drug trials and cited in over 1000 published papers, as well as advanced EEG, MEG, ERP, and MRI brain recording and imaging technologies,. The Principal investigator for the Procera AVH was Dr. Con Stough. Dr. Stough is one of the world’s most frequently published and leading authorities on IQ and intelligence, and cognitive enhancing drugs and nutraceuticals. Evidence of Efficacy Procera AVH™ is one of the few, if not only, brain nutritional supplements on the market today that not only was tested for efficacy, from a major university research study or clinical trial, but also uses only clinically validated ingredients at or above the dosage levels shown in prior independent studies to be effective and safe. Most, if not all, other supposed brain boosting supplements on the market fail to use minimally “proven effective” ingredient levels. Most put just a little bit of everything in their formula to window dress their label in hopes of impressing the un-informed public. Don’t be impressed! And few, if any, “cognitive enhancers” and “mood enhancers” have been validated in a highly qualified university study with normal functioning people across a broad age group. Only Procera AVH, a “dual action cognitive and mood enhancer”, has satisfied all the important criteria. This is why Procera AVH can justify its claim to be the first Mind, Mood and Memory enhancer with evidence of Efficacy!




Just admit that you haven't got a damned clue what you are talking about.
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Pardon?
 


You are such a shill. It's so obvious dude. Secondly, you look at treating illness on a combination basis. Analogy : I recently had some sinus problems, drainage, etc. I took a combination of 2x700mg Spirulina's, 5x 8000 IU Vitamin A, 2 B-complex with 300mg Vitamin C added, 1x 1000mg Vitamin C, all daily. I also drank maybe 2-3 Arizona Vitamin C enhanced teas.

You wanna know how long it took me to get rid of it? 3 days. If I went to the doctor I would still be taking antibiotics by the 7th day, blocking histamines that boost the immune system. I have a father who has Atherosclerosis and has already suffered one heart attack. I had to practically tell him everything he should be taking for this disease. When my father raised concerns over the vitamins and nutrients I confided to him, his doctor looked at him strangely and said that actually yes; he should be taking all of those. Now my question is; why can I do that quacks job?

Yes; if you read all of those that I posted; it is not debatable that the 3 of those "may protect from brain damage/ enhance brain function. It is fact.




ALCAR has the ability to cross the blood–brain barrier and get to the brain blood circulation, where it acts as a powerful antioxidant,[14] which helps in prevention of the brain cells' deterioration. Its supplementation has been shown to be neuroprotective in instances of cerebral ischemia in rats[


Nowhere in any of that does it leave it open for debate as to whether or not that is what it "may" or "may not" do. Re-examine them all, while they may have potential other uses, they all DO enhance or protect brain function. No mays or mays not about it. Why does my age matter? Why do you accuse people of outright deceit with NO proof? Why do you degenerate to calling people antagonistic names like quack? Do you have an assassination or a silencing agenda?




Vinpocetine is reported to have cerebral blood-flow enhancing[2] and neuroprotective effects,[3] and is used as a drug in Eastern Europe for the treatment of cerebrovascular disorders and age-related memory impairment.[4]





Huperzine A: Clinical trials in China have shown it to be effective in improving cognitive performance in patients with Alzheimer's disease[4] and enhancing memory in students.[5]


These are not debatable! Regardless of whether or not you can comment on the other cases; matters not. You are a nobody, who decides nothing on these matters; fortunately courts who do matter found it reasonable that they receive compensation. As for the monkies; does it matter if the school already filed legal proceedings? No it doesn't; but then again governments and pharmaceutical companies have agendas too. Don't be a hypocrite. What does anybody have to gain by a conspiracy theory like these; and what do they(TPTB),have to lose? Think about that one when you start pointing fingers and accusing people of deception because what they say doesn't coincide with your masters.
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)


You're a bit tetchy aren't you?
Been taking too much Procera?

They are debatable but not in your closed mind obviously.
Like I said reading doesn't mean understanding and you clearly don't.
What does anyone have to gain? Think about it sonny boy. Think about it.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 


My second post isn't debatable. I directly refuted yor standing that no double blind clinical studies of merit were done. Meanwhile all you can say is reading isn't comprehending, when I comprehended it very well. But I suppose I'm just close minded, right sonny boy? It's not like I ever question authority.
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by Pardon?
 





You're a bit tetchy aren't you? Been taking too much Procera?


You're a bit evasive and dull; been taking too much fluoride?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Pardon?
 


Bull#.



Procera AVH® is a proprietary, patent pending, nutritional supplement that was clinically tested and shown to help improve memory, focus, mental clarity, and even mood. Procera AVH®'s double-blind, placebo controlled University Clinical trial was conducted at the Brain Sciences Institute in Australia.


m.gnc.com...

Now, who is lying again? That's right you are.

www.brainresearchlabs.com...




Study Center – World Renown Brain Sciences Institute The ProceraAVH study was conducted by world renown cognitive researcher, Dr. Con Stough at the Brain Sciences Institute, Swinburne University, Melbourne, Australia. The Brain Sciences Institute was chosen for two reasons: It is one of the leading neuro-cognitive research labs in the world with a comprehensive array of neuro-psych tests, such as the FDA approved, CDR tests of cognitive function used in over 500 pharmaceutical drug trials and cited in over 1000 published papers, as well as advanced EEG, MEG, ERP, and MRI brain recording and imaging technologies,. The Principal investigator for the Procera AVH was Dr. Con Stough. Dr. Stough is one of the world’s most frequently published and leading authorities on IQ and intelligence, and cognitive enhancing drugs and nutraceuticals. Evidence of Efficacy Procera AVH™ is one of the few, if not only, brain nutritional supplements on the market today that not only was tested for efficacy, from a major university research study or clinical trial, but also uses only clinically validated ingredients at or above the dosage levels shown in prior independent studies to be effective and safe. Most, if not all, other supposed brain boosting supplements on the market fail to use minimally “proven effective” ingredient levels. Most put just a little bit of everything in their formula to window dress their label in hopes of impressing the un-informed public. Don’t be impressed! And few, if any, “cognitive enhancers” and “mood enhancers” have been validated in a highly qualified university study with normal functioning people across a broad age group. Only Procera AVH, a “dual action cognitive and mood enhancer”, has satisfied all the important criteria. This is why Procera AVH can justify its claim to be the first Mind, Mood and Memory enhancer with evidence of Efficacy!




Just admit that you haven't got a damned clue what you are talking about.
edit on 7-12-2012 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)


Okay, I've just had a look around and I was wrong about the study.
I've found the actual one now so I will concede on that.

The study's far from conclusive and very small, less than 50 per group with an 18% drop out. Not great.
Generally there would be some description of the randomisation and/or of the placebo which was used but there isn't. That's quite unusual in a study of this type.
I can't seem to find the study in Pubmed either which is odd.

I don't understand why a more in-depth and larger study hasn't been performed on it yet though as to really demonstrate whether it's effective they need to do one. It seems like a relatively simple methodology so should be easily reproduced.
And the whole trial only took 4 weeks so time shouldn't be an issue.

It was published but in quite an obscure journal JANA ( not the more well known JAMA) which is only published a couple of times a year but fair enough, I'll leave that as neutral.


The study was done in Swinburne in Melbourne by all accounts however...

There isn't actually a Brain Sciences Institute in Swinburne Uni in Melbourne.
They mentioned the same name several times so it can't be a typo.
All I can think of is that they're getting confused with the world renowned Brain Science (singular, not plural) Institute at John Hopkins.

In its favour is that there is possibly evidence to suggest it may help in some cases at the optimal dosage but unless a vastly improved study is performed you can't really tell.
It also needs to be performed independently from the company which produces it to rid it of any bias

The study doesn't seem robust enough for what it's trying to show. I really don't know why they've not followed it up.
There's just too many red flags flying for me especially the aggressive marketing of it. Far too much hyperbole and well, lets call it poetic licence on the study results. Getting the name of the place which did the study puzzles me too. How or why would they do that?
Having a look around their selling techniques seem to be a bit close to the bone too.

In conclusion, I'm still not convinvced. If I had spider sense it would be tingling.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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Every time someone tries to tell the truth about how mercury in vaccines mangles babies' brains, some psychopathic liars show up to try to deny it. Meanwhile, more normal babies go from normal to zombie and cost taxpayers millions for caring for them for the rest of their lives.

Every autistic child since 1999 could have been avoided if not for the psychopathic liars. How many babies is that, worldwide who had their brains toasted just because a bunch of liars want to avoid having anyone learn the truth?

These are the questions I want to see the liars address, not some nonsense about which study sounds better then another study.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 07:25 PM
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Wow, alot of debate, but really it's as simple as this. People that want to inject mercury, aluminum, surfactants, formaldehyde, foreign proteins, etc. go right ahead, be my guest, I think that would be fine, but leave the rest of us alone that choose to not want to gamble with a toxic rabbit's foot. I get plenty of aluminum from my environment already, don't need any extra mercury either, (had it drillled into my teeth) formaldehyde, no thanks I'll pass, you can even have mine, go for it, but stop trying to force it on others. If these things are so great don't worry YOU"LL be protected, don't worry about the great unwashed masses, it's their choice. I think it's amazing degenerative diseases of all kinds seem to keep climbing, and we're just one more pill or shot away from health?
edit on 7-12-2012 by Tecumte because: sp.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by bettwice33
Every time someone tries to tell the truth about how mercury in vaccines mangles babies' brains, some psychopathic liars show up to try to deny it. Meanwhile, more normal babies go from normal to zombie and cost taxpayers millions for caring for them for the rest of their lives.

Every autistic child since 1999 could have been avoided if not for the psychopathic liars. How many babies is that, worldwide who had their brains toasted just because a bunch of liars want to avoid having anyone learn the truth?

These are the questions I want to see the liars address, not some nonsense about which study sounds better then another study.


It is absolutely INSANE to be injecting mercury OR aluminum into any young baby or child, but espcially over time, or a large amount at one sitting, I cringe that this is going on, good god this is 2012 and I swear it seems like the Dark Ages, reactions, no wonder, Hmmmm, and pregnant mothers, getting these things and their babies getting dosed with these things?






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