The Christian perception of the state of Israel.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Lonewolf, your interpretation of scripture depends on several assumptions you leave unproven.

You must prove that the Jews in Occupied Palestine are of the tribe of Judah. I contend they are not.

You must prove that the Jews in Occupied Palestine comprise all of Israel. I contend they are not.

You must prove that God has now regathered all of Israel, a diverse group of people now numbering many millions of people. If they are not all there, you have to ask yourself if this regathering has yet taken place.

You must prove that God has given these people a new heat. Obviously, this has not happened.

Since you mention Gog and Magog, you must also prove how Jewish-Occupied Palestine qualifies as the "land of unwalled villages" when it is so obviously not such a place.

reply to post by Deetermined

Actually, Skorpion, what's tiring is you playing ignorant as to why there's fighting going on over the land to begin with. We both know that the land IS a religious matter being disguised as a civil matter.

The land is a religious matter only to Christian fundamentalists, who believe Jews own that land because of some biblical / prophetic reason. These Christian fundamentalists come across as schizophrenic because they claim to be followers of Jesus, and at the same time support the Israeli state that mocks and rejects Jesus... and opposing the muslims who revere Jesus as the messiah.

The Palestinians just see it as a purely land related issue. They are angry because of the mainly EUROPEAN jews, with no ancestral link to that land, taking their land just because they can.

As for Syria, it started out as a civil uprising that turned into an Islamic fight to make Syria an Islamic state by the Islamic extremists. They have infiltrated and taken over the FSA movement and I think you know it, but refuse to admit it due to your religion. You have your own disguise going.

Save this Syria talk for another thread. It has nothing to do with the subject matter of the OP and it doesn't change the fact that Christians are infatuated with a people who despise and reject Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined

The regathering of Israel is not completed yet. When it's complete, you'll see another fight over Jerusalem and who's capitol it's going to become. While this is going on, or shortly after it's been completed, you'll see the new spirit start to take over.

So now its not regathered,"yet", is it? You are changing your tune.

So then this "regathered" anti-christian, secular, gay tourism hotbed is NOT the fulfillment of prophecy.
Just like how the anti-christ appears before the Christ, this impostor calling itself "Israel" has arrived before the real one.

Just like I said in the OP...

Most Christians will still special plead for Israel. In their perception, modern Israel is only in a 'temporary' state of sin, after which it will be redeemed. They are utterly convinced that this vile nation will, in the nick of time, make a 180 degree turn, repent and accept Jesus as savior and be saved from destruction.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The land is a religious matter only to Christian fundamentalists

Stop lying. You know that's not true.

Read the Charters of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah and all the other Muslim organizations trying to turn the Middle East into Islamic states in order to spread "political Islam".

Once you do, you'll know that these extremists consider ALL land conquered by Islam in the past to remain Islamic land meant for the Muslims until the "day of resurrection".

Do your homework.

In all honesty, it doesn't matter what the non-Muslim Arabs think or want because they're going to get thrown under the bus either way.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So now its not regathered,"yet", is it? You are changing your tune.

It has started, but not been completed. Surely you're not so blind to see that it has already started, primarily with Israel becoming a nation in 1948 and many more people immigrating to Israel since then.

reply to post by Deetermined

Read the Charters of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah and all the other Muslim organizations trying to turn the Middle East into Islamic states in order to spread "political Islam".

For starters, the Palestinian muslims have been living there peacefully with Jews and Christians before the establishment of the state of Israel.

Secondly, those organizations don't exactly represent the average Palestinians living there....who bear the brunt of Israeli occupation. All those organizations have their own agendas and I don't care about them. Its all politics being spun as "religious affair".

For the average Palestinians its all about losing their ancestral land. It is them I'm more concerned about than some organization claiming support for Palestine.

reply to post by Deetermined

It has started, but not been completed. Surely you're not so blind to see that it has already started, primarily with Israel becoming a nation in 1948 and many more people immigrating to Israel since then.

All that is fine and dandy.
But the problem is in that country established in 1948 turning into a godless secular, anti-christian state with homosexual parades. You don't seem to want to address that for some reason.

This godless state calling itself "Israel" is NOT the prophesied biblical Israel and you are deluded if you think they are.




Since you believe they are being regathered.... and since you like the subject of prophecy so much.

Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
- Ezekiel 22:19-22

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Who cares what you think or the non-Muslim Arabs think about the land?

The truth is, the Palestinians don't have the might to fight off either the Israelis or the Muslim extremists for that matter. What the Palestinians need is an army of their own. The problem is, the extremists will take over their army just like you saw in Syria.

The only winner in this fight for "Palestine" is either going to be Israel or the Muslim extremists.

Syria has already proven that the regular Arab is going to get thrown under the bus. Once you see the final outcome of that battle, you can pretty well guess how the rest of the fight in "Palestine" is going to end up as well too. Just wait and see.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

This godless state calling itself "Israel" is NOT the prophesied biblical Israel and you are deluded if you think they are.

Why do you keep repeating yourself? I already told you when the "spirit" of Israel was going to turn.

You really want to know about the "prophesied" Israel? Read Ezekiel 37 and Zechariah 12, 13 & 14.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Since you believe they are being regathered.... and since you like the subject of prophecy so much.

Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you. - Ezekiel 22:19-22

Well, since you're quoting scripture, let me pick up where you left off...

Zechariah 13:8-9

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Lonewolf, your interpretation of scripture depends on several assumptions you leave unproven.

You must prove that the Jews in Occupied Palestine are of the tribe of Judah. I contend they are not.

You must prove that the Jews in Occupied Palestine comprise all of Israel. I contend they are not.

You must prove that God has now regathered all of Israel, a diverse group of people now numbering many millions of people. If they are not all there, you have to ask yourself if this regathering has yet taken place.

You must prove that God has given these people a new heat. Obviously, this has not happened.

Since you mention Gog and Magog, you must also prove how Jewish-Occupied Palestine qualifies as the "land of unwalled villages" when it is so obviously not such a place.

edit on 4-12-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

No, i don't have to prove anything. Time will do the proving. Just watch and see.

Neither did i say all the jews were in Israel and it was already proven by DNA testing that they are related to the jews who have been there for the last 2000 years who escaped the roman purge.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

No, i don't have to prove anything. Time will do the proving. Just watch and see.

Neither did i say all the jews were in Israel and it was already proven by DNA testing that they are related to the jews who have been there for the last 2000 years who escaped the roman purge.

No, you don't have to prove anything, and that means I don't either... Yes, I've been watching for decades now, and am only more convinced that I am correct.

No, all the Jews are not in "Israel," for almost all of them stayed behind - in Persia! Iran has more "Jews" than Israel, and what do you think of that? As to DNA testing connecting the present-day Jews with those who lived in first-century Palestine, that's old research. Newer (and not funded by "Israel") research connects the Jews with the Kazars after all. Koestler is vindicated, as I knew he would be.

We will just HTATD.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short


No, all the Jews are not in "Israel," for almost all of them stayed behind - in Persia! Iran has more "Jews" than Israel, and what do you think of that?

How much homework did you do to come up with that statement, Lazarus?

Today, only 8,756 Persian Jews remain in Iran, with much larger diaspora populations living in Israel and the United States.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Most reports of Jews living in Iran come to a total of 25,000 - 35,000, but that number appears to be dwindling fast.

1979 to present. The Islamic Revolution turns the Iranian kingdom into an Islamic republic. Since the revolution, the number of Jews has decreased from 120,000 to fewer than 20,000. Iranian Jews have mostly immigrated to the United States — particularly Los Angeles — and to Israel.

www.jewishjournal.com...

In fact, the recent articles about the Jewish woman who was recently killed in Isfahan by her Muslim neighbors, say that the Jewish population in Isfahan had dropped by over 70% alone just since 2009.

reply to post by Deetermined

The only winner in this fight for "Palestine" is either going to be Israel or the Muslim extremists.

You've got to be joking if you are telling me that the muslim extremists are a match for Israels state of the art army and airforce.

Why do you keep repeating yourself? I already told you when the "spirit" of Israel was going to turn.

This is more of the Christians special pleading for Israel, which I mentioned in the OP.

When I say biblical Israel hasn't been regathered yet... you will point to the state established in 1948.
But when I point out its secularism, its rejection of Jesus and its celebration of homosexuality, you say " it hasn't been "fully regathered yet".

You know fully well that the modern state of Israel is steeped in sin, yet you keep making excuses for Israel.

Well, since you're quoting scripture, let me pick up where you left off...
Zechariah 13:8-9

It simply shows that only a small portion shall remain.
Most of Israel who are responsible for its present day wickedness will be annihilated.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by Lazarus Short


No, all the Jews are not in "Israel," for almost all of them stayed behind - in Persia! Iran has more "Jews" than Israel, and what do you think of that?

How much homework did you do to come up with that statement, Lazarus?

Today, only 8,756 Persian Jews remain in Iran, with much larger diaspora populations living in Israel and the United States.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Most reports of Jews living in Iran come to a total of 25,000 - 35,000, but that number appears to be dwindling fast.

1979 to present. The Islamic Revolution turns the Iranian kingdom into an Islamic republic. Since the revolution, the number of Jews has decreased from 120,000 to fewer than 20,000. Iranian Jews have mostly immigrated to the United States — particularly Los Angeles — and to Israel.

www.jewishjournal.com...

In fact, the recent articles about the Jewish woman who was recently killed in Isfahan by her Muslim neighbors, say that the Jewish population in Isfahan had dropped by over 70% alone just since 2009.

You need to be a workman approved by God, rightly dividing the word of God. Part of that is to rightly divide between Israel, Judah, and Jew. Most of the members of the tribe of Judah (not Jews) in Persia/Iran are Muslims.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Skorpion, you obviously haven't been paying attention to one word I've said throughout this thread.

Yes, the Bible verses I posted show that 2/3 of Israel will be cut off, but if you're trying to say that we shouldn't try to support Israel because we don't know who the remaining 1/3 will be that's worthy of saving, I disagree. If you think that we're in error for not supporting a Palestinian state along the way, I disagree too, and here's why. The Muslim extremists don't want to break up the land and have to recognize Israel as a state, it's against their religion in their eyes and it would be the equivalent of denouncing Islam altogether. To force a Palestinian state will force the Muslims to accept an Israeli state. What you don't seem to understand is that this will cause more fighting and killing in the region than what we're seeing now. The most we could hope for would be to see the Palestinians eradicate the extremists, but we both know that's not going to happen.

Here's another thing you don't seem to understand. Israel is actually helping to stabilize the region more than hurting it. The Muslims know that Israel has more might than them, but you also have to realize that Israel is surrounded. If the Israelis let up, the Muslim extremists would kill all of the Jews. Once the Jews are gone, the Muslim extremists will kill all of the other non-Muslim Arabs. Once the non-Muslims are gone, the Muslims will go back to fighting each other (Sunni vs Shiite) over who's going to rule over all of the Muslims in the region. Why do you think they're so big right now on spreading "political Islam" throughout the entire region? The extremists in Aleppo, Syria were demanding this just the other day. They want Syria to be declared an Islamic state.

This may seem far fetched to you, but all you have to do is look at history as well as look at the number of extremists that are developing in the region. Jihad is upon us and it's not turning back, it's too late. Israel may be pushing the Palestinians out of their homes, but they are not killing them the way that the extremists are right now by starting battles in the region. And before you start to think that Israel started the fight in Gaza, just take a look at Syria again. Do you really think that Israel would have started the recent conflict in Gaza knowing that it would only develop sympathy for them right before the recent U.N. vote? Give me a break. This is all something that Israel and the U.S. recognize, but you don't.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

You need to be a workman approved by God, rightly dividing the word of God. Part of that is to rightly divide between Israel, Judah, and Jew. Most of the members of the tribe of Judah (not Jews) in Persia/Iran are Muslims.

You're wasting your time trying to decide which people are which. You have no idea which 1/3 of the people are going to be saved from the destruction that's coming. For now, we should be protecting the entire state and and the entire region from destruction by the extremists (once we figure out who's an extremist and who's not). That's becoming more difficult by the day and the number of extremists appears to be increasing.

reply to post by Deetermined

Israel is actually helping to stabilize the region more than hurting it.

In the same way as any invading force would try and stabilize the regions of their conquest?
That's hardly comforting.

You are turning a simple discussion about Christians fanatical support for an anti-christian regime into one about biased political speculation... through statements such as the one I quoted and others such as...

If the Israelis let up, the Muslim extremists would kill all of the Jews. Once the Jews are gone, the Muslim extremists will kill all of the other non-Muslim Arabs. Once the non-Muslims are gone, the Muslims will go back to fighting each other (Sunni vs Shiite) over who's going to rule over all of the Muslims in the region.

Statements like these are not only biased, but are also examples of black-and-white thinking that can basically be summarized as "jews=good, muslims=bad". Its amazing how some Christians always bring in politics into a religious discussion and religion into a political discussion.

Face it, all the walls of scripture and political speculation you post will not change the fact that Christians like you support a vile regime / people who are opposed to Jesus. You justify it by some warped interpretation of OT scripture or some biased analysis of ME politics.

The fact remains that Christians like you are sympathetic to the Jews who insult Jesus as a bastard and a false prophet, while vilifying the Muslims who revere Jesus as a prophet and the messiah.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Statements like these are not only biased, but are also examples of black-and-white thinking that can basically be summarized as "jews=good, muslims=bad". Its amazing how some Christians always bring in politics into a religious discussion and religion into a political discussion.

Biased? I only have to read the statements and Charters of the Muslim extremists themselves and look at all of their statements calling for "political Islam". They are the ones mixing politics with religion.

The fact remains that Christians like you are sympathetic to the Jews who insult Jesus as a bastard and a false prophet, while vilifying the Muslims who revere Jesus as a prophet and the messiah.

You're being a hypocrite here once again. You've gone on and on in this thread about Jews insulting Jesus, yet you don't even realize that the Muslim extremists taking over the Middle East have way surpassed insulting Jesus. They are killing their Muslim brothers and all you keep talking about is all of the homosexuals in Israel. Obviously, that's a bigger insult to you than murder is.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

You need to be a workman approved by God, rightly dividing the word of God. Part of that is to rightly divide between Israel, Judah, and Jew. Most of the members of the tribe of Judah (not Jews) in Persia/Iran are Muslims.

You're wasting your time trying to decide which people are which. You have no idea which 1/3 of the people are going to be saved from the destruction that's coming. For now, we should be protecting the entire state and and the entire region from destruction by the extremists (once we figure out who's an extremist and who's not). That's becoming more difficult by the day and the number of extremists appears to be increasing.

No, it's not a waste of time, because of the people pretending to be people they are not, and threatening the peace of the region and maybe the whole world. Identified correctly, support would dwindle, their power would decline, and they would not be such a threat. Anyway, how do you propose to protect the "entire state and and the entire region for destruction by the extremists"? The world is going to hell on a rocket sled, dude, in case you hadn't noticed.