The Christian perception of the state of Israel., page 1

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Topic started on 2-12-2012 @ 04:52 AM by sk0rpi0n

Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
- Isaiah 66:8

Its a well known fact that most Christians believe that the establishment of the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. For many Christians, its a major milestone crossed... a sign that they are closer to the end times. In other words, christians see the existence of the Israeli state as a needed stepping stone for eschatological events to come to pass. In other words, no Israeli state = no apocalypse.

(For anybody who wants to read more about the prophetic value Christians see in the state of Israel, please see my thread here.)

Most Christians seem to be convinced that the modern state of Israel is on the side of "good", and that Israel will emerge victorious in every conflict because they believe God ensures them victory. As examples, they will cite Israels victories in the wars of 1949, 1967 and 1973, where they single handedly defeated many Arab states. This blind admiration of Israels military prowess seems to have become ingrained into Christian belief, so much so that there is more cheering of Israel than putting into practice Jesus' message of "Love your neighbour" and "Love your enemies".

I wont even bring up Christianity's lack of concern over Israels mistreatment of the Palestinians because I know its not worth it. At best, Christians believe anything Israel does is the will of God, and is a necessary step for the fulfillment of prophecy. At worst, they believe the Palestinians are terrorist scum worthy of annihilation, at the hands of Israeli army and at the hands of God.

Looking beyond the Christians romantic associations with the state of Israel, What is the state of Israel, really? Well, for starters, modern Israel is the product of godless politics and politicians NOT that of prophets and saints. Israel is a state where 30% of its population are secular / atheists, NOT a land where people uphold God and religion. Another astonishing fact is that Israel, the "holy land", is also a hotbed of gay tourism where gay parades are held in the streets. Some food for thought for Christians who vocally oppose homosexuality in their own countries.

Israel has no use for the laws of God, instead it relies on its military might and the support it receives from the west. Amazingly, despite all the support Israel receives from Christians...and despite the existence of all those Jewish-Christian associations... Israel is NO friend of Christianity. It is a state that has, in the past, broadcast material mocking the very central figure of Christianity - Jesus and has laws in place to counter the preaching of Christianity.

So, do Christians believe this godless, secular, homosexual tolerating, anti-Christian state is what Israel was prophesied to be restored as? Just where in the bible does it prophesy that Israel would be restored as a godless secular state, where homosexuals parade in the streets and the the messiah is mocked and insulted?

I know most Christians will still special plead for Israel. In their perception, modern Israel is only in a 'temporary' state of sin, after which it will be redeemed. They are utterly convinced that this vile nation will, in the nick of time, make a 180 degree turn, repent and accept Jesus as savior and be saved from destruction. They also believe that Israel would emerge victorious at Armageddon, while everybody else would be annihilated and left in the open to rot and be eaten by birds.

God knows best.

edit on 2-12-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:10 AM by ecapsretuo

By God, you are right.
www.npr.org...
Apparently, Tel Aviv has become the world's gayest city.
And here I thought the OP was just some crazy Christian rhetoric.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:25 AM by HabiruThorstein

It's always funny when someone who hates a certain group of people (in this case OP has a very obvious bone to pick with Christians) starts off by claiming they know the true inner thoughts of the entireity of said group. I mean hey there's only a couple billion of them, I'm SURE all of them think the same....

Too bad there isn't a flag for 'load of hooey' or hater thread.

Peace out, don't forget to smell the flowers. On average we only get to do that between 70 and 80 times, and before you know it, no more blooms.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:31 AM by DarknStormy

All you pro Israel religious kookys, explain this please and how it is an acceptable practice according to your scripture... Any wonder the Arabs are losing there sh!t and attacking, Israel are a bunch of

edit on 2-12-2012 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:34 AM by SilentKoala

This can be explained by the fact that most Christians today view Judaic and Christian belief systems as one homogeneous whole, where Jesus' references to God (or his "Father") are the same as references to Yahweh or Jehovah in the Old Testament, and Christianity is just a continuation, or fulfillment, of the Hebrew religion. This is essentially unanimously taken for granted by the church today.

Most Christians would be surprised, however, to learn that large portions of early Christianity completely rejected this concatenation of Hebrew beliefs to Jesus' teachings, divorcing the two belief systems and in many circles even naming the Hebrew version of god as an antagonist to the Christian god.

The early church, for the first two to three centuries, was very divided on this. It's interesting to note that the former group, the Catholic branch (from which all modern branches of Christianity today are descended) essentially waged war on the ladder branch, the Gnostics, and the Catholic branch was responsible for such acts as the burning of the library of Alexandria to attempt to eliminate all texts and traditions that didn't accept their merged system.

The reason why some segments of Christianity today, namely evangelical Protestants, so blindly support Israel is because they are basically Jews. They believe in a literal interpretation of the Old Testament, which is believed to be infallible, and tack on the teachings of Jesus (which for the most part, they don't even follow).

There is a patriotic element to it as well; Israel is viewed as an extension of America, or at least the most America-like nation in the Middle East, so the segments of society who that like to beat their chest believing America can do no wrong will project that attitude onto Israel as well.

edit on 2-12-2012 by SilentKoala because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:44 AM by VonDinkinDunken

Originally posted by DarknStormy

All you pro Israel religious kookys, explain this please and how it is an acceptable practice according to your scripture... Any wonder the Arabs are losing there sh!t and attacking, Israel are a bunch of
edit on 2-12-2012 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

Thats the difference between Israel and their arab neighbors. They don't stone their people or chop their heads off for being atheist and/or gay. They don't force their people to comply with a state sponsored religion or die if they choose not to. The Arabs in that neck of the woods don't have a lot of tolerance or mercy for those who they consider infidels/different.

As for religious beliefs regarding the gayness of Tel Aviv, God did say he came to save the sinners, not the righteous, as the righteous do not need to be saved according to Jesus in the Christian Bible. Its that Koran that more or less says they are evil infidels who are condemned. I think your question is better directed @ a mooselimb.

By the logic I see here, if we were to turn our back on Israel or condemn them b/c an article on NPR says some of them are super gay atheists, then we are all condemmed by the very same logic b/c the entire world is overflowing w/people who break the commands of God.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:54 AM by HabiruThorstein

Originally posted by SilentKoala
This can be explained by the fact that most Christians today view Judaic and Christian belief systems as one homogeneous whole, where Jesus' references to God (or his "Father") are the same as references to Yahweh or Jehovah in the Old Testament, and Christianity is just a continuation, or fulfillment, of the Hebrew religion. This is essentially unanimously taken for granted by the church today.

Most Christians would be surprised, however, to learn that large portions of early Christianity completely rejected this concatenation of Hebrew beliefs to Jesus' teachings, divorcing the two belief systems and in many circles even naming the Hebrew version of god as an antagonist to the Christian god.

The early church, for the first two to three centuries, was very divided on this. It's interesting to note that the former group, the Catholic branch (from which all modern branches of Christianity today are descended) essentially waged war on the ladder branch, the Gnostics, and the Catholic branch was responsible for such acts as the burning of the library of Alexandria to attempt to eliminate all texts and traditions that didn't accept their merged system.

The reason why some segments of Christianity today, namely evangelical Protestants, so blindly support Israel is because they are basically Jews. They believe in a literal interpretation of the Old Testament, which is believed to be infallible, and tack on the teachings of Jesus (which for the most part, they don't even follow).

There is a patriotic element to it as well; Israel is viewed as an extension of America, or at least the most America-like nation in the Middle East, so the segments of society who that like to beat their chest believing America can do no wrong will project that attitude onto Israel as well.
edit on 2-12-2012 by SilentKoala because: (no reason given)

You might want to ask the Egyptian Copts, Ethiopians, and Eastern Orthodox folk about that whole 'all modern churches' statement. But hey, you're too busy hating 2 billion people to do any research I guess.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 05:57 AM by SilentKoala

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
You might want to ask the Egyptian Copts, Ethiopians, and Eastern Orthodox folk about that whole 'all modern churches' statement. But hey, you're too busy hating 2 billion people to do any research I guess.

They descended from the catholic branch. I didn't say Roman catholic, I said catholic. Catholic =/= Roman catholic. It is only today that the terms are used interchangeably. Learn history before making such ignorant statements.

And where did I say I hated anyone? Are you one of those people who automatically assumes that if someone criticizes something, that means they "hate" it? Is everything that black and white to you?

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 06:13 AM by HabiruThorstein

Originally posted by SilentKoala

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
You might want to ask the Egyptian Copts, Ethiopians, and Eastern Orthodox folk about that whole 'all modern churches' statement. But hey, you're too busy hating 2 billion people to do any research I guess.

They descended from the catholic branch. I didn't say Roman catholic, I said catholic. Catholic =/= Roman catholic. It is only today that the terms are used interchangeably. Learn history before making such ignorant statements.

And where did I say I hated anyone? Are you one of those people who automatically assumes that if someone criticizes something, that means they "hate" it? Is everything that black and white to you?

You're the moron trying equate all modern churches with Catholicism, the Orthos, Copts, Ethiopians and numerous smaller branches have nothing to do with modern Catholicism (you did use the words modern churches, then complain I use modern interpretations-what an idiot)

And you are looking to criticise when you paint 2 billion people with a single brush stroke? Pretty doubtful. Just face it, you don't like Christians. Fine, no one says you have to. However, there's literally triple-digit threads already on ATS about slamming Christians, throw in slamming Jews, you might get to 500, and slamming all faiths anywhere I'd wager a nice cold beer that gets you to quadruple digits. Use one of those threads if you're so keen to right the ways of billions of others who so desperatley need your direction. I ignore the old ones

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 06:14 AM by HabiruThorstein

edit on 2-12-2012 by HabiruThorstein because: double post - delted all text

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 06:16 AM by VonDinkinDunken

Israel has just as much right to be there as anyone else. Over the course of recorded history, everyone and their mother has occupied the land. More recently the Ottoman's owned it and the Brits kicked them out and by all temporal rights it became theirs. They eventually partitioned it off to create a state of Israel which was recognized by the powers that be at that time. Since Israel has been a recognized state they've been repeatedly attacked by their arab neighbors. And they repeatedly wiped the map with their Arab neighbors azzez, and now the Arabs in that neighborhood have a little butthurt. The Arabs have been conquering and occupying for thousands of years. The land they have now is land they've conquered and occupied. IF their territorial lines are to be respected then Israel’s must also be respected. Israel land the Palestinians want to claim as their sovereign state rightfully belongs to Israel because they conquered it during a war brought on them by the Arabs who owned the land at that time. Now the Arabs are crying VICTIM VICTIM to acquire the land through world sympathy, slander, and terrorism because they don't have the military muscle to take it back the old fashioned way.

edit on 2-12-2012 by VonDinkinDunken because: My spelling is REDICULOUS!!!!!

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 06:40 AM by bloodreviara

Oh the irony, every single nation has been brought forth in a day, once
they declare they are a country from that day forward they exist, therefore
i would say the entire assumption is simply ignoring the truth.

Our nation could be said to have come about in a day, the day the declaration
of independence was signed we became a nation, hence a nation formed
in one day....... again religion does not care about reason or logic whatsoever.
if they did they would not be in a religion lol. the things they claim are either
flat out lies or misrepresentation of facts to suit their desire.

edit on 2-12-2012 by bloodreviara because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 07:11 AM by buster2010

Originally posted by VonDinkinDunken
Israel has just as much right to be there as anyone else. Over the course of recorded history, everyone and their mother has occupied the land. More recently the Ottoman's owned it and the Brits kicked them out and by all temporal rights it became theirs. They eventually partitioned it off to create a state of Israel which was recognized by the powers that be at that time. Since Israel has been a recognized state they've been repeatedly attacked by their arab neighbors. And they repeatedly wiped the map with their Arab neighbors azzez, and now the Arabs in that neighborhood have a little butthurt. The Arabs have been conquering and occupying for thousands of years. The land they have now is land they've conquered and occupied. IF their territorial lines are to be respected then Israel’s must also be respected. Israel land the Palestinians want to claim as their sovereign state rightfully belongs to Israel because they conquered it during a war brought on them by the Arabs who owned the land at that time. Now the Arabs are crying VICTIM VICTIM to acquire the land through world sympathy, slander, and terrorism because they don't have the military muscle to take it back the old fashioned way.

edit on 2-12-2012 by VonDinkinDunken because: My spelling is REDICULOUS!!!!!

If you were to wake up to modern times you would know that taking land by force is illegal. And when it comes to crying victim nobody does it better than Israel.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 08:11 AM by Lazarus Short

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 08:25 AM by DarknStormy

reply to post by VonDinkinDunken

Your first post I agreed with to the point I couldn't even respond to it because it is probably true. Your second post though is an absolute lie. I encourage you to provide an instance where the Arabs have provoked anyone without being provoked themselves prior to their Revolt/Uprising/Rocket Shelling or what ever else they done..

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 08:33 AM by EnochWasRight

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Hosea 6

6 “Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

Actually, you are missing the reason they have been brought back.

1) When Joseph brought the family to Egypt, they were brought into the presence of the enemy to be saved.

2) It was during a time of Seven years of trouble.

3) Joseph refused them until they brought all 12 Brothers.

4) They had sold Joseph (archetype of Jesus) into bondage as a nation.

5) Joseph then grew up among the enemy and rose to power.

6) Joseph provided for the nation among their enemies.

7) The nation was not perfect.

8) It had to cross a wilderness after defeating the enemy.

9) Ultimately, they were called out of Egypt.

10) The one they sold into bondage saved them. Jesus was sold into bondage to our sin to save us. By a nation, one man is enslaved. By one man, the nations are free.

During the first century, Jesus said that if they destroyed the temple (His body), he would raise it again in two days. He did. He raised the church up as a witness to Israel. They are in the nation, among their enemies, to see salvation come for the world and not themselves. By the vision of this happening, Israel (in the second year of tribulation) will be told this.

Genesis 45

45 Then Joseph could no longer control himself before all his attendants, and he cried out, “Have everyone leave my presence!” So there was no one with Joseph when he made himself known to his brothers. 2 And he wept so loudly that the Egyptians heard him, and Pharaoh’s household heard about it.

3 Joseph said to his brothers, “I am Joseph! Is my father still living?” But his brothers were not able to answer him, because they were terrified at his presence.

Now, all we need to do is figure out who Christ is today. WE KNOW!!!!

1 Corinthians 10

And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

We are all cut from one loaf and will return to this same loaf. The Christian body is that loaf today. Can I demonstrate this another way?

1 Corinthians 12

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Can I demonstrate this another way? To see this clearly, you need to know why Israel must see salvation come for the Church today. They will be the ones at the end of the 1000 years to face the Jubilee when Satan is released. First, the Holy Spirit must be revealed. As this Spirit is revealed by the Church, it is the witness to the wicked generation.

I might also note this: Who is the brother that Jesus requires Israel to bring to complete the 12 today? YES. ARABS!!

Revelation 1:7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

All eyes have already see. All knees will bow to Christ and not man. Even the wicked generation will see it happen right in front of their eyes as the enemy is made the footstool. What is the sign that Jesus has entered the Temple today?

Global Meltdown and the Tables Turned

Jesus said that if they destroy Him, he would raise the temple in three days (three thousand years). It's been two. On the second day, he will revive Israel and reveal Himself. Not only will he do this on the second thousand years, it will literally happen in two more years when a revival breaks out in Israel.

Hosea 6

6 “Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

Calendar by the Jubilee Years

Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are Witnessing in this Thread and in the OP Here

15 Witnesses. You only need Two

edit on 2-12-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 09:08 AM by NOTurTypical

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

There are substantially more verses than that one. Lol

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 10:14 AM by maes2

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

well prophet Mohammed said anti_christ will emerge in a city of jews but he is not a jew but an atheist. I am sure Israel is where the anti_christ will emerge. anyhow Lucifer knows that Jerusalem is where he will be defeated. so it can not stay calm.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 04:50 PM by SilentKoala

reply to post by HabiruThorstein

Wow, seriously, you're going to resort to name-calling and ad-hominems, just because I pointed out some historical facts you don't like? Clearly the one who has hate for others is you.

If you still don't understand the difference between the terms catholic and roman catholic (which you clearly don't) I encourage you to educate yoruself: en.wikipedia.org...

I won't get my hopes up though; I'm sure you aren't going to make an attempt to learn and better yourself, so you just keep slinging mud and throwing around insults as you pound on your computer keyboard because you can't stand the fact that not everyone in the world believes your religion is immune to critical examination.

reply posted on 2-12-2012 @ 08:26 PM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by HabiruThorstein

.... starts off by claiming they know the true inner thoughts of the entireity of said group.

I don't claim to know the inner thoughts of anybody.
Whatever I posted in the OP is based off what I have seen in Christian literature, books, websites, videos etc. where they see Israel as being on the side of "good" despite all its evil.

Also, I'm not even saying all christians feel that way about Israel. I said "most" or "many" Christians.