How bad is the economy..Let me tell you , page 2

reply to post by kozmo

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There is no real reason to apologize for being a downer if that is what your intentions are.

You entire perspective is based on negative speculation. Granted, the other side of the coin is positive speculation. But most of these markets are speculation. And in a world where our financial system is based on speculating markets dips and drops it is no surprise that an effort to flip the momentum will be accompanied by positive speculation.

They are painting a bright picture so that the momentum will change.

But when you say things like ObamaCare will bankrupt businesses it reveals your true intentions.

How can I tell? Because you reiterate the same Bush Apologist crap about Obama taking money away from doctors from medicare medicaid.

Goerge W Bush's signed the Deficit reduction Act of 2007 to try to offset the cost of some of his presidencies spending and literally pulled most of it from Medicare. His policy took away 40% of the top of reimbursement from Medicare to doctors, out patient centers, and hospitals.

You tell me how many businesses out there have a profit margin of 40%? His policy literally closed down thousands of businesses in the medical field.

But if you want to wear tunnel vision goggles and see what your brain loves to see, so be it.

But the truth is different than what your negativity characterizes.

AAC

reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom

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Banks cannot do that. It's called a balance sheet. You cannot have a balance sheet without both sides of the coin.

If those banks took any money from TARP they would be breaking federal laws by cooking the books with massive penalties. MASSIVE.

So please stop propagating falsehoods.

AAC

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
reply to post by kozmo

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You are entitled to that opinion based on the info you are able to secure. I don't generally trust any of the "media releases" as all the info is cooked to generate a pre-determined response. Sometimes it is to create enthusiasm and other sources to generate despair...

I never mentioned the unemployment numbers thank you very much...everyone knows those numbers are screwed. But the 3 million jobs I mentioned are not retail sales...they are "skilled" jobs that are going unfilled..and as you say...have for years. People are going to trade and tech schools to learn how to do them. Whether there is aid for them or not is irrelevant. If you want to get somewhere, you have to invest in yourself. If you are waiting for a white knight to ride up and throw an education and a better standard of living at you...you are an idiot...not going to happen.

My main opinion is based on what I see around me. How people are living and shopping...

I see housing prices raising and on the markets shorter amounts of time. I see more work coming across my desk than I have in the last 4 years. People spent more on "Black Friday" than they have in years...another positive indicator.

I also believe, you get exactly what you expect to get. If you expect to fail at something...I can almost promise that you will.

I was trying to give the OP a positive view from where I sit. You can wallow in depression and misery if you wish, but I have lots of work and lots of prospects for more work and that makes me a happy person.

You are seeing what you want to see.

Yes the housing prices are going up in some markets, but it is again investors buying and they are bidding up the prices in the mistaken belief that the economy is just about to turn, and because they feel with the interest rates as low as they are that real estate is a good buy. The FED is buying a ton of MBS garbage to supposedly not inflate with their newly created money, and in the same process help keep the banks operating. Just because the money is being artificially pumped into housing does not mean there is any real recovery in demand.

As for retail, any supposed strength that has been reported is all anecdotal. None of the true numbers are known until the companies report their earnings. Recent history suggests black friday sales are always over estimated initially.

Overall employment as a percentage of the population has not improved at all, and the amount of welfare spending has gone way up.

The fundamental reason the economy sucks is there is too much debt outstanding at every level, individual, corporate, local government and federal government. The overall debt in the system has actually INCREASED since 2008, much of what has defaulted was bought by the FED and has been forced on the tax payers.

The economy is not going to recover as long as the excessive debt is out there, payments on that debt is destroying the ability to invest in starting and growing business. Low interest rates remove savers ability to grow their savings which is what stimulates the economy.

It's not wallowing in depression to look at the facts. They are not pretty. Nothing has been done to fix what happened in 2008. The banks are still incredibly unstable and can easily bring the economy down. They are leveraged at insane ratios of 30 to 1 and more. The derivatives outstanding have increased. The federal government is now 5 trillion more in debt and has the fed buying 75% of all the debt it issues because no one else wants it. That means soon there will be no more ability to run a deficit - when that happens POOF 15% of our GDP goes bye bye. None of the stimulus has done anything to spur the economy.

Economic power is based on what a population produces in goods and services and materials. The amount of currency that represents that production is meaningless, its overall value is based on that production and the ability for that production to be taxed.

This country is less productive today than it was five years ago, and there is no reason to think that is going to change anytime soon. Manufacturing can be done cheaper elsewhere, those jobs aren't coming back. Our education system is deteriorating, and other countries systems are improving. This means our share of future innovation is going to be less. Then there is the ever increasing dependence on government handouts, and our aging population.

I can't see a single reason to be optimistic.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom

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Banks cannot do that. It's called a balance sheet. You cannot have a balance sheet without both sides of the coin.

If those banks took any money from TARP they would be breaking federal laws by cooking the books with massive penalties. MASSIVE.

So please stop propagating falsehoods.

AAC

Here is one example of what he was talking about...

While the Senate Banking Committee last week spun its wheels trying to get JP Morgan chief Jamie Dimon to admit to something nefarious during testimony about his “London Whale” trading loss, executives at the big bank were concealing a far bigger scandal.

OK, it’s no secret that nation’s public pension funds are in big trouble, holding large “unfunded” liabilities owed to public workers once they retire. But most politicians (New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie is an exception) will tell you the problem is fairly containable. . . .

Not so, warns a “strictly confidential” report JP Morgan issued last year. . . . As the Morgan report notes, many of the real liabilities are located “off balance sheet,” hidden from the public’s eye, and lax accounting standards let cities and states minimize their enormity.

americanvisionnews.com...

"Banks, gov’s hiding massive $3.9 trillion pension liabilities"

Originally posted by randomname
why don't you open a business that helps your fellow man, and then you can profit with a clean conscience, not that selling meteorites is wrong.

I am here to hopefully help ANYONE that needs it.. NO I am NOT from the government!
When the economy "tanked" in 2008.. I begged my husband to leave the city.. (He was a restaurant manager and I was a 6 figure earning insurance agent)

Well the world has changed a bit..Hubby cant find a restaurant managers job ( he is now very happy in the trucking industry making MORE money and less hassle that management) and the Insurance company I worked for was very crooked and shut down business in Houston.. they have moved on to other towns scamming new insurance agents.. (I digress...)

I moved to the country and started a small hobby chicken farm and raise ONLY chickens...(it grew!) through DUMB luck and the RIGHT timing... we are able to meet our bills and keep afloat... So if you or a relative have the space, put in a chicken coop.. I will DONATE MY TIME to make sure you are a success..... (If mods will let me?) My website for free help to new businesses) is www.bluestar-ranch.com... Bless you all... I hope this helps SOMEONE.... Please contact me anyone.. Raising chickens is easy and I will donate my time to anyone free... I promise.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom

---

Banks cannot do that. It's called a balance sheet. You cannot have a balance sheet without both sides of the coin.

If those banks took any money from TARP they would be breaking federal laws by cooking the books with massive penalties. MASSIVE.

So please stop propagating falsehoods.

AAC

yes like the massive penalties they imposed on john corzine? i laugh at that because the only thing we have that's massive besides our debt, is the level of corruption in our banks and governments. massive penalties

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
reply to post by kozmo

---

There is no real reason to apologize for being a downer if that is what your intentions are.

You entire perspective is based on negative speculation. Granted, the other side of the coin is positive speculation. But most of these markets are speculation. And in a world where our financial system is based on speculating markets dips and drops it is no surprise that an effort to flip the momentum will be accompanied by positive speculation.

They are painting a bright picture so that the momentum will change.

But when you say things like ObamaCare will bankrupt businesses it reveals your true intentions.

How can I tell? Because you reiterate the same Bush Apologist crap about Obama taking money away from doctors from medicare medicaid.

Goerge W Bush's signed the Deficit reduction Act of 2007 to try to offset the cost of some of his presidencies spending and literally pulled most of it from Medicare. His policy took away 40% of the top of reimbursement from Medicare to doctors, out patient centers, and hospitals.

You tell me how many businesses out there have a profit margin of 40%? His policy literally closed down thousands of businesses in the medical field.

But if you want to wear tunnel vision goggles and see what your brain loves to see, so be it.

But the truth is different than what your negativity characterizes.

AAC

edit on 1-12-2012 by AnAbsoluteCreation because: (no reason given)

What are you going on about??? This thread has nothing to do with Bush - he finished ruining the economy 4 years ago! Now Obama is working overtime on destroying it.

Please allow me to address a few assumptive statements you've made. First, I have simply put forth facts - you know, REALITY stuff. I haven't time to dream of rainbows and unicorns when I live in a REAL world where REAL things are happening. So, the fact that you view my post as negative is very telling... especially when it is based on real economic events.

Second, it is fine to believe in "The Secret" and all of that other new-age pseudoscience where one believes that they can alter reality by putting out "good vibes" or whatever. I mean, go with it if it works for you. But trying to convince an entire nation that the piss their getting on their heads is only rain is flat out wrong! I'm interested in FACTS.

Now, for the "Bush apologist" crap... I will never Defend Bush! He'll go down in history as the second worst president - after Obama!

Finally, and it seems that there is a good deal of this abounding in these forums, you are suffering from a condition recognized as Cognitive Dissonance - a state where reality isn't in sync with your beliefs and your mind settles to restore balance by ignoring the facts and holding tighter to your beliefs.

The TRUTH is NOT different from my beliefs because my beliefs are based on FACTS - empirical, measurable and verifiable facts. Where are your facts? You lay a claim that I am wrong yet you provide no substantial evidence to support your claim. I cannot be sorry that the facts are negative. When it is raining, no amount of wishing for the sun will make the rain go away. And when one is being pissed upon, laying claims that it is merely rain won't change the reality that they're being pissed upon!

Thanks for weighing in though... I guess.

Originally posted by new_here
reply to post by RocksFromSpace

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How unfair that you had this dream and built up this business with sound business practices, only to have it fade from fruition due to reckless governing beyond the scope of your influence.

I knew the TV newscasters were lying to me last Monday. I could tell by the desperate way they kept repeating over and over again, their hollow message. Basically the gist of it was: "Despite the economy, people came out in record numbers on Black Friday, and online sales for Monday hit record high..." They used this sound bite during commercials before the news came on, and they used it during the news to say, "Later in our show..." and "When we come back from commercial break..."

When folks come out in record numbers for BF....its not a good sign. And like you say when the pump it and pump it you know they are just priming the pump, things are not good.

How about the little bits they do where they tell you how much the average jane and joe are going to spend this year at xmas.....hint hint. Good robot spend x amount.....good robot spend x amount....good robot runs over people in the parking lot at Walmart to get that deal......good robots dont read fine print......

reply to post by proximo

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As I replied to Kozmo, I can only speak for what I personally know. I do see signals that lead me personally to be optimistic. I do not listen to the MSM on just about anything. Journalism went out the window years ago and what you hear is what they want you to hear. Every "press release" is now an opinion/editorial and it will always be slanted to extract a calculated response. As I said in my reply to Kozmo, sometimes they twist things to generate a positive or enthusiastic response and sometimes to get a negative response...fear or despair.

We only have access to so many facts. You don't want to see the stock market as an indicator...ok, that is your choice. You have reasons to believe the housing market is not returning, where I think it is. You see negative indicators in your area and feel it is the general rule...I see positive indicators where I am and I think that is the general rule. I am going to guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.

There are real issues and we all know this. The "fiscal cliff" negotiations are an utter and complete sham...these criminals are not even trying to address or fix the real problems. But you know what? If they think they have a plan and none of this crap matters...so be it. I am going to continue to try and do my best and "make hay while the sun is shining". If spring comes and the economy slams shut...I'll have hopefully banked enough dough to make it till it crawls out again. Wallowing in worry and despair is not going to make a damn thing better for me or for anyone else.

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